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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@antipodean what about asians in australia (and nz)?
i'm talking here about chinese, vietnamese etc that have been around for similar generations or more as your wogs - the (great) grandparents tick all your boxes: look different, speak different, different religion, different culture, different values. yet they are now integrated.Good question and I knew someone would ask, so here's my answer:
Asians have been in Australia since forever. Small towns had a "chinese" restaurant. Cities had China Towns. They were hard working, valued education, largely contributed to society and their religion was different but not in your face. They certainly weren't running around demanding people's head were cut off. They were also largely socially conservative, which fit right in. This despite Asian immigration before, during and after the White Australia policy.
The only issue was the large scale Vietnamese migration which had some resulting crime coming as it did at the same time as heroin influx.
Forward a generation or two, they speak like Australians, look like Australians, have good rates of intermarriage, high rates of education and career success. You'd have to guess what religion they follow, if any. They like sports Australians like, because they're Australians.
Contrast that to a group of people that ensure you know they follow a different religion. One that is antithetical to values Australians like to espouse. Demand you don't offend them, want to be segregated so they can use the same facilities as everyone else, but according to their culture. Don't appear to value education. Certainly don't find employment like other migrants have. Commit vastly more crimes per capita.
What part of that is assimilating? It's self-imposed apartheid.
Quite frankly, I'd be happy to have Muslim women migrate here, just so they can get away from the Y-chromosome fluffybunnies they're related to and decide for themselves if they want to marry before they're 10 or have their genitals mutilated. Or swim in public pools when other Australians are. Or go outside...
so to paraphrase, your answer is 'time'?
been here forever, opened restaurants, had their own communities... were certainly railed against by 'locals', subject to racism... fast forward a couple of generations and they're australians...
if asian immigration contradicts the majority of the points previously stated: different looks, language, religion, culture etc - and i believe it does - then maybe you ought to re-assess stating those as the reasons. in this 2nd post it seems to me that you are not saying those are the reasons, you are saying a lack of integration (which takes time) and oppressive cultural norms (changing which takes time) are the issues. that i can agree with.i know anecdote is pretty pointless, but i happen to know a 2nd generation nzer of eritrean muslim descent. that country is oppressive as shit, one of the worst in africa for genital mutilation (which is present in all religions in those countries). but you know what? he's just a normal fella - nicer and more tolerant guy than me, that's for sure. his english is perfect, he's mates with poofs, he treats women well - he's fine by any of our standards - because he's been here a while. if you give people the support and time to adapt, they will. i am opposed to mass migration to one place of people from a different culture, because that inhibits integration - but to suggest it is because of inherent traits of the people themselves, is, i think, racist.
Using your anecdotal example.
As a very rough percentage how many of his mates (now and growing up) are 'NZers' and how many are Erirtrean Muslims? -
@NTA said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
Americans have a much higher percentage of their retirement savings in the stockmarket than Kiwis.
In terms of superannuation what is the deal in NZ for selecting how your fund operates? Some of that is going to be shares?
Kiwisaver has lots of options depending on your risk profile
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@NTA said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
Americans have a much higher percentage of their retirement savings in the stockmarket than Kiwis.
In terms of superannuation what is the deal in NZ for selecting how your fund operates? Some of that is going to be shares?
Kiwisaver has lots of options depending on your risk profile
Cane is correct. For example my Kiwisaver account is as risky as shit... because I dont care to much about it, it is not my retirement plan. I go through Craigs Investments and basically it is all shares, and I choose the shares, I can buy and sell as I want. It is basically a personal share portfolio. I love it. I get to dabble in the stockmarket more.
I sold Apple shares a coupe of months back as I knew they were going to go down.They didnt.. they went up.. alot.
Luckily my other shares in the portfolio have done significantly better...
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback exactly baron - take people from one environment, put them in another and they adapt. that guy would be as much a foreigner in eritrea as i would now.
my point is that it there are not inherent traits of ethnicity or religious background that make integration impossible - more different = more time, that's all. it's just common sense - don't stick them all in one place together if you want them to integrate quickly, especially if they have factors like language making it easier for them to stick together.
immigrants from another culture/language are disadvantaged in employment terms. put big groups of disadvantaged together, and you have slums. develop slums composed of one ethnic group, and you create racism.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
so to paraphrase, your answer is 'time'?
If that's what you took from my post, then I haven't written it very well.
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@reprobate
I agree with a slowly, slowly piece by piece approach and being highly selective of whom to let in. It depends on the threshold. What Sweden has done is well-meaning but waaaaay too idealistic. I also suspect more than a bit of 'we lead the world in humanitarianism' hubris on their part.I knew a guy over here here in Taiwan who was orthodox Muslim (a Nigerian who was Canadian by birth who used to be Christian and switched to Islam.) We were friends. This was back in 2005 before all this shit really kicked off. I was really interested in his thinking because he was so devout. In particular, I was interested in how far he would take his beliefs. Of course, he would never use violence and generally he hoped to convert people by being an 'example'. Fair enough.
But he said something else. He said the goal of his faith is to spread and ultimately 'defeat' Western liberalism. Okay. How to do this. He told me by settling in Western countries, having kids to increase the Muslim population, and infiltrate the political systems via think tanks, foundations, membership of political parties to change the agenda and gradually change Western society. To push for the right to an Islamic education in Western society for his children. There was NO interest in adjusting himself to Western society, and even more worrying an active desire to change Western society to his beliefs. Obviously this group, will target more moderate Muslims to be part of their campaign. And obviously there is no way in hell they will be broadcasting this intention to all and sundry. He felt it okay because we were in Taiwan discussing this and I was also a critic of some aspects of Western society.
In fact they will work under the banner of 'tolerance'. Hard-left or indifferent Westerners are very useful for them to achieve this purpose.
Obviously the jihadists a real danger to Western society, but they are so few in number. It is the %age that want to actively change Western society to a more Western oriented view that I think should not be allowed in.
Sam Harris has done some good research on the percentage of Muslims believing in Sharia Law. He analyzed the %age of people voting for the Muslim Brotherhood in elections across the Middle East over a period of 20 years or so. He estimates 20% or so.
In his own clumsy mass-market way, Trump has drawn attention to this across the world. The spotlight should not be on him, but rather than on a rapidly growing faith where a huge number of its adherents wish to spread it actively defeat what our culture stands for. The ideology of conservative Islamism needs to be strongly challenged and reformed because in many ways it is a political ideology.
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@antipodean well i ignored the bit where you implied that muslim immigrants run around wanting people's heads cut off.
the bit where you mention genital mutilation, which is practiced by all religions in certain countries in africa too.
the bit where you mention child marriages, most of which occur in india.
the bit where you said all muslim men are fluffybunnies, but the women are sweet as, they just need your protection.apologies.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@antipodean well i ignored the bit where you implied that muslim immigrants run around wanting people's heads cut off.
the bit where you mention genital mutilation, which is practiced by all religions in certain countries in africa too.
the bit where you mention child marriages, most of which occur in india.
the bit where you said all muslim men are fluffybunnies, but the women are sweet as, they just need your protection.apologies.
You're apologising for using @gollum 's trick of misrepresentation?
The countries with the worst rates just happen to be majority Muslim countries. Hell of a correlation.
Not from Australian Indians they aren't. the AG and AFP are predominately targeting Arabs and Somalis.
The context isn't all. I've made that perfectly clear.
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@canefan said in US Politics:
I don't think that guy will meet immigration criteria
That's from a protest in Sydney - so he's already here.
The question, like those who identify as Muslim in jail: did he come here as a Muslim? Or did he become a Muslim while here? Might have been born here.
No amount of immigration vetting is going to fix the 2nd-gen who radicalise. That is a different kettle of fish.
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@Frank do you think that is realistic though frank? i mean with a relatively careful approach you wouldn't have the numbers needed to change the way a society functions? -and in a generation when that guys kids have grown up in the west, with (despite any parents' best efforts) pretty much full immersion: western friends, ideals etc - odds on they see their old man as a dinosaur, and are integrated themselves.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
odds on they see their old man as a dinosaur, and are integrated themselves.
Or, as with some of the Lebanese youth here, see their old man as a useless dinosaur who should be fighting for Lebanon's rights.
Not understanding the old man said "Fuck this shit, I'm going somewhere I can die of old age!" in the first place.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@antipodean well i ignored the bit where you implied that muslim immigrants run around wanting people's heads cut off.
the bit where you mention genital mutilation, which is practiced by all religions in certain countries in africa too.
the bit where you mention child marriages, most of which occur in india.
the bit where you said all muslim men are fluffybunnies, but the women are sweet as, they just need your protection.apologies.
You're apologising for using @gollum 's trick of misrepresentation?
you're misrepresenting yourself mate. you started out with look different, different language, different religion etc. means go somewhere else - those were the reasons you gave. then in response to 'what about asians, who fulfil all your criteria?' you basically responded with 'but asians work hard whereas muslims are violent and lazy criminals who don't care about education and practice genital mutilation'.
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@NTA yep, but if migration is managed well, vetted and spread out and supported, i would think that number would be very small in comparison to those who just become normal members of society - there are some nutters in every population unfortunately.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@antipodean well i ignored the bit where you implied that muslim immigrants run around wanting people's heads cut off.
the bit where you mention genital mutilation, which is practiced by all religions in certain countries in africa too.
the bit where you mention child marriages, most of which occur in india.
the bit where you said all muslim men are fluffybunnies, but the women are sweet as, they just need your protection.apologies.
You're apologising for using @gollum 's trick of misrepresentation?
you're misrepresenting yourself mate.
No, I'm genuinely not. I explained why all the reasons didn't apply to Asians, hence tying it back to the statement 'It's much harder to assimilate when you increasingly have less in common'.
I was polite about your misrepresentation, going to the point of even suggesting your comprehension skills were my fault, but I've had enough of your spin so I'll ignore you forthwith.
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@NTA said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
I don't think that guy will meet immigration criteria
That's from a protest in Sydney - so he's already here.
The question, like those who identify as Muslim in jail: did he come here as a Muslim? Or did he become a Muslim while here? Might have been born here.
No amount of immigration vetting is going to fix the 2nd-gen who radicalise. That is a different kettle of fish.
Indeed. The 2nd gen who radicalise has been a huge problem among all immigrant groups and religions. Have to keep an extra special eye on the Presbyterians.
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Already posted in 'Awesome stuff on internet ', but the mindset behind this is amazing.
Love it. -
@Frank said in US Politics:
The ideology of conservative Islamism needs to be strongly challenged and reformed.
How?
Trump is not advocating that. He's advocating banning Muslim immigration. He's fully supportive of the core areas of Islamic extremism - Qutar, Bahrain, Saudi. He's on board with Russia who have a fully functional Sharia state inside their borders fully supported by Putin.
So he's probably not the solution. He's sure as fuck not "challenging" it given his support for the Sunni core states. Nor is Putin.
So what is your route plan? How would you do what you think needs doing?
US Politics