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@baron-silas-greenback said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
@crucial Labour would withdraw article 50 without a doubt.
It has been the process and vagueness around what 'out' really means that has been the killer. Imaging voting for something that wasn't defined but would have a major impact?
You seem to keep beatng the drum that the vote was somehow confusing. It wasnt. It was very very straight forward. People wanted out of the EU, they werent voting on process, and for good reason. That would never end. Where exactly do you dstop ewith that? Answer - You dont, and therefore you never leaver the EU. Which admittedly is the goal of the remainers but hardly democratic.
This is just a continuation of the remainers arrogance in the assumption that people didnt know what they were voting for. Yes... they did.The question was straight forward, people understood it.
I think remainers will keep pushing for referendums until they get a win.. then suddenly all votes will be stopped and things will me magically clear.Seriously? That is quite an astounding lack of self awareness you are showing. You have been repeating ther same mantra for years and then accuse people who respond to it as broken record..
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Brexit:
@majorrage said in Brexit:
@crucial Labour would withdraw article 50 without a doubt.
It has been the process and vagueness around what 'out' really means that has been the killer. Imaging voting for something that wasn't defined but would have a major impact?
You seem to keep beatng the drum that the vote was somehow confusing. It wasnt. It was very very straight forward. People wanted out of the EU, they werent voting on process, and for good reason. That would never end. Where exactly do you dstop ewith that? Answer - You dont, and therefore you never leaver the EU. Which admittedly is the goal of the remainers but hardly democratic.
This is just a continuation of the remainers arrogance in the assumption that people didnt know what they were voting for. Yes... they did.The question was straight forward, people understood it.
I think remainers will keep pushing for referendums until they get a win.. then suddenly all votes will be stopped and things will me magically clear.That the Remainer logo?
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
So May wins the confidence vote 200 - 117.
Would you say that makes her position stronger than before the no confidence vote was forced? I'm thinking yes. Whilst it's not good to have 33% odd of your own party having no confidence it is still a pretty large margin of support.
I am not sure. But I think she only survived by promising to resign before the next election.
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
So May wins the confidence vote 200 - 117.
Would you say that makes her position stronger than before the no confidence vote was forced? I'm thinking yes. Whilst it's not good to have 33% odd of your own party having no confidence it is still a pretty large margin of support.
Here it would be an overwhelming display of support for the PM.
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@catogrande There can't be another No Confidence vote for 12 months so it gives her time to push through whatever she wants / can unencumbered by the threat of being rolled. She still has to win in parliament but I think her position has been strengthened somewhat - particularly as she's fucking off.
I'm with MiketheSnow - not a fan of May per se but having been foolish enough to grasp the poisoned chalice have a grudging regard (respect / admiration go too far) for her sticktoitiveness.
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@catogrande said in Brexit:
So May wins the confidence vote 200 - 117.
Would you say that makes her position stronger than before the no confidence vote was forced? I'm thinking yes. Whilst it's not good to have 33% odd of your own party having no confidence it is still a pretty large margin of support.
I don't know if it changes anything. The Tories who made it clear they wouldn't vote for her agreement are no more likely to soften their position in light of this vote are they? I'm sure a decent number of the MPs - even ones who gave her their confidence vote - aren't over the moon with her management of the process. Then there are others who simply don't like the deal. Finally there are the opportunists who just want to stab whoever is leader as a way to get themselves into the top job. Between them its unlikely her job is going to get any easier. And that's without mentioning the Euro warriors who seem intent on humiliating her as a way of punishing the uppity Brits.
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Fascinates me that MPs are prepared to vote for change when no credible candidate and/or direction has been offered.
So it could well have been a case of don't like May, vote her out, and now what the fuck do we do?
Baffling.
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Also brings to light is it a case of
- May, a Conservative, using her party and position to enact her wishes
or
- May enacting the wishes of her party and its members?
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@jc Thanks for detailed response on the Irish border issue. My knowledge in this area isn't great but for my own clarity then the most pressing issue is a likely return to terrorist violence if any form of border is put in place?
I know it's only been 20 years since the last attack but could tensions have reduced at all since? Have organisations made threats to a return to violence, do the younger generation still have that level of hostility? My few Irish friends are anti-EU/pro-Brexit, but they are in their 20's so maybe not as impacted by the past.
As for the issue with a soft border potentially a weakspot for illegal immigration, UK Brexiteers I know don't really care, it's not ideal but the whole situation isn't ideal and they just want to be out and this would still be a huge improvement. Surely additional resources could be put into NI to help mitigate against this issue without having to be on the border itself. I know there are existing visa 'spot checks' etc at UK airports, is it physical structures people are more opposed to than potential checks at airports? I kind of feel we are getting to the point where domestic flights are already getting increasingly strict.
Happy to bow to a better understanding of the political issues there.
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@rembrandt said in Brexit:
@jc Thanks for detailed response on the Irish border issue. My knowledge in this area isn't great but for my own clarity then the most pressing issue is a likely return to terrorist violence if any form of border is put in place?
I know it's only been 20 years since the last attack but could tensions have reduced at all since? Have organisations made threats to a return to violence, do the younger generation still have that level of hostility? My few Irish friends are anti-EU/pro-Brexit, but they are in their 20's so maybe not as impacted by the past.
As for the issue with a soft border potentially a weakspot for illegal immigration, UK Brexiteers I know don't really care, it's not ideal but the whole situation isn't ideal and they just want to be out and this would still be a huge improvement. Surely additional resources could be put into NI to help mitigate against this issue without having to be on the border itself. I know there are existing visa 'spot checks' etc at UK airports, is it physical structures people are more opposed to than potential checks at airports? I kind of feel we are getting to the point where domestic flights are already getting increasingly strict.
Happy to bow to a better understanding of the political issues there.
I'll admit to a bit of oversensitivity on this one. My Mum's cousin's son was killed in Omagh for the crime of being 8. The problem as I see it isn't that the issues are particularly complex to resolve, rather that none of the parties are prepared to concede anything. From what I could see the joint membership of an entity at a layer above the state level made it possible for the two sides to coexist without any loss of face. You're right that if everybody wanted to make it work then it could. But many don't want either the peace process or the Brexit to work.
Even the UK MPs are perfectly happy to see everything burn if it gets them an advantage. Add in the religion, nationalism and history of the Irish and the whole thing just seems insurmountable. I can't believe the architects of the exit campaign didn't ask of themselves "what about Northern Ireland?" right at the beginning, taking it as read that both sides would fight them all the way.
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@jc Very understandable, its easy to forget with the current Islamic terrorism problems that their were similar very significant issues in Britain not too many years. I read a great book recently by a Dr Fred Luskin who detailed an experiment he ran in Northern Ireland where he put mothers whose sons had been killed in this violence through a forgiveness course he designed. The results were very positive and gives some real hope for these world problems which seem to be doomed to escalate forever, but yes when it comes to politicians this isn't often the priority.
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
Too late to talk about the way it should have been handled.
Obviously you can't change the past - but the current situation shouldn't be divorced from how we got here. Once the ballot was taken and results known there have been obstructionists, people acting in bad faith and parties completely willing to intentionally sabotage the negotiations in order to get a revote.
To sit back and say "look at the mess we are currently in, let's take the easy way out" actively rewards the forces that actively sandbagged and worked against the will of the nation.
Can you name these obstructionists etc? Who has intentionally sabotaged negotiations?
It is probably an unsatisfactory answer but anyone in the parliament or public life who has worked against the will of the people for Brexit since the vote was taken.
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
Too late to talk about the way it should have been handled.
Obviously you can't change the past - but the current situation shouldn't be divorced from how we got here. Once the ballot was taken and results known there have been obstructionists, people acting in bad faith and parties completely willing to intentionally sabotage the negotiations in order to get a revote.
To sit back and say "look at the mess we are currently in, let's take the easy way out" actively rewards the forces that actively sandbagged and worked against the will of the nation.
Can you name these obstructionists etc? Who has intentionally sabotaged negotiations?
It is probably an unsatisfactory answer but anyone in the parliament or public life who has worked against the will of the people for Brexit since the vote was taken.
Or anyone in the EU negotiating team. They’ve hardly gone out of their way to make this a no fault divorce have they?
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Often with such complicated issues it is good to break them down into a more understandable format. So here we have Brexit - the omelette problem.
LEAVER: I want an omelette.
REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.
LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]
REMAINER: They’re in the cake.
LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.
REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.
LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.
REMAINER: Icing is good.
LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.
DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.
DAVID CAMERON: OK.
DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.
LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?
REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.
LEAVER: Well, get them out.
EU: It’s our cake.
JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.
REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?
LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.
REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?
LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.
THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.
REMAINER: How?
THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.
REMAINER: Yeah, but…
LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.
EU: It’s our cake.
REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.
LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.
REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.
LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.
REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?
LEAVER: You lost, get over it.
THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.
REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?
THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.
REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?
JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.
EU: It’s our cake.
LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.
REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.
LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.
REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.
LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.
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Brexit