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@antipodean said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
I am wondering if anyone on here thinks a 2nd referendum would be a good idea. And if so, why?
As you may have sussed, I voted remain, but I really cannot see the benefit of a further referendum. No way it could again be on a simple leave/stay option. We've done that, so end of. A suggestion has been going around that it should be along the lines of go with X deal/stay. That to me is almost impossible. Firstly the fucking MPs cannot find an acceptable deal. Secondly any deal will be chock full of complexity and to expect the majority of the electorate to actually read the full details of the deal let alone understand all the ramifications would be fanciful. Dealing with that shit is what we vote the politicians in for.
So no, for me we just have to deal with what we've got ourselves in to. Trouble is, we're not dealing with it.
A second referendum forced on the citizens because their MPs fucked around would be a terrible blow on democracy.
It isn't a terrible blow to democracy if the result of a referendum has been tried to be implemented and the options are found to not be agreeable to the people.
You would not find a majority for either May's deal or 'no deal'.
That said a second referendum (even if to try and prove my statement above) would only add another level of complexity to the situation and would end up slanted toward 'no decision'.This mess all stems back to those that agreed to the referendum not asking themselves the question 'what happens if they vote yes?' and recognising the risk they were taking. If they hadn't been so self serving and arrogant they could have still held a vote but offered plans.
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@rotated both - they agreed it with the UK govt negotiators. So therefore they should expect UK to leave under these terms. Also, gotta remember that the more time they focus on this, the less time they don’t deal with other things.
Having said that, their response so far today on Mays letter is shit. May not have a response til the 28th? Too late for tomorrow’s agenda?
39 billions worth of divorce deal should see that agenda adjusted. It’s time to start playing some cards.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@rotated both - they agreed it with the UK govt negotiators. So therefore they should expect UK to leave under these terms.
But surely when you start the negotiations for the exit proposal the EU has to accept that the UK Govt Negotiators have no agency to actually enact anything. The only people who can "agree" to any exit proposal are the house. May can agree to put it before the parliament, speak in favour of it and lobby on its behalf - IMO she has exhausted whatever moral obligation she had to do that so now let's move onto renegotiation.
May is a car salesman taking an offer back to their manager who has promptly rejected it. Simply repeating the same offer ad nauseum is not a strategy once it is apparent that the last proposal is unworkable. I'm sorry you can't shake your head in the sand and say "we had a deal" when the person on the other end has no agency to actually make that deal.
I see this as no different if May in bilateral talks with Ireland was able to find a solution which was acceptable to both parties on all things Eire. They both may agree but ultimately the EU membership swings the hammer.
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Simply repeating the same offer ad nauseum is not a strategy once it is apparent that the last proposal is unworkable.
The EU President has made it clear in the last hour it's either May's deal and a short extension or the UK exits the EU with No Deal in 9 days time. Macron appears to be saying France will veto any longer extension of Article 50.
And what are our MP's discussing in an Emergency Debate in the House of Commons right now? They are attacking May for not yet holding indicative votes on what type of relationship the UK should have with the EU.
The Hard Brexit nutters and the "I don't care what the people voted for" Remainers - Fuckwits the lot of them.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
Simply repeating the same offer ad nauseum is not a strategy once it is apparent that the last proposal is unworkable.
The EU President has made it clear in the last hour it's either May's deal and a short extension or the UK exits the EU with No Deal in 9 days time. Macron appears to be saying France will veto any longer extension of Article 50.
And what are our MP's discussing in an Emergency Debate in the House of Commons right now? They are attacking May for not yet holding indicative votes on what type of relationship the UK should have with the EU.
The Hard Brexit nutters and the "I don't care what the people voted for" Remainers - Fuckwits the lot of them.
Don't forget about option 3. Withdraw article 50.
I assure you, this is on the table as well.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Don't forget about option 3. Withdraw article 50.
I assure you, this is on the table as well.Simply pretend there was no referendum, that a 1m majority voted to leave the EU, that Parliament voted by a huge majority to invoke Article 50 and hope the public will understand and everything will be OK and hunky-dory?
Sounds like the sort of plan that only Vince Cable, Ken Clarke and other dotty Remainers would regard as realistic
Apologies for the sarcasm - the current situation seems to demand it
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@Victor-Meldrew it is ridiculous. Which means it’s par for the course.
I actually think Mays deal will get through.
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Get it thru and have a general election - not least to get rid of tossers like Umanna, Soubry & the weird ultra-brexiteer who votes against any deal as he "was in the army and trained not to lose"
And Labour's Brexit spokesman, Starmer, has just said on the current situation..."the introduction of "a new cliff edge is dangerous. It is clearly not what this House wants,"
Fuck me.
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This is an organisation which thought it a good strategic idea to rely on on Putin's Russia for it's energy needs.
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I am disappointed but not surprised that the UK media is so fucking gutless and partisan... towards Europe.
Regardless of wether you want to remain or leave I think most people agree.
1/ The MP's have made a mess of it
2/ The EU has treated the UK like an enemy and done nothing to 'help' get a smooth Brexit happen.These 2 things would rally the people of the UK, fuck the commons, and fuck the EU negotiators and leadership. At a time then the country is so disunited they need to rally some Brit Grit and get a bit of war time spirit. The UK just has no fight.
EU leadership is scornful of the UK and UK voters. EU media s the the same, yet the UK leadership and media is almost subservient and pathetic. They need to grow some balls and actually fight hard on behalf of the country. I think to much of the leadership class and media are remainers and are suffering some serious Stockholm syndrome. -
@Rembrandt said in Brexit:
Surely there is no way in hell that the EU will want a No Deal way too much money on the table.
They’re in a position where they can always get more money. Until of course they can’t. But that’s a long way off.
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She hasn't covered herself in glory to date has she?
That said, we are where we are, and her comments on people being pissed off with MPs and just wanting to get on with things was spot on.
As for Corbyn, who's spent the last year preaching on the need to reach out and get a consensus on a deal, walking out on May's party leaders meeting because a Labour defector was in the room.... Jesus wept.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
That said, we are where we are, and her comments on people being pissed off with MPs and just wanting to get on with things was spot on.
Absolutely. But trying to seperate herself from this? Fuck. Off.
As for Corbyn, who's spent the last year preaching on the need to reach out and get a consensus on a deal, walking out on May's party leaders meeting because a Labour defector was in the room.... Jesus wept.
Petty politics. Which Some may argue got us here in the first place.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Absolutely. But trying to seperate herself from this? Fuck. Off.
Yep. They all share the blame. MPs are now accusing her of "stoking hatred of MPs" for stating the bleeding obvious and saying people are pissed off with Parliament and just want to get on with it.
The self-indulgence across the board is breathtaking
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
... The self-indulgence across the board is breathtaking
And entirely predictable
Brexit