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@Victor-Meldrew its just seems incongruous to talk about 'ignoring the will of 17.2million' when the nature of the referendum also means 'ignoring the will of 16.4 million'
The big difference is the effect of the outcome and no facility to charge your mind three years later if it turns out wrong. -
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Also worth adding that I dont agree that it was at all clear what you thought "it" was is what would happen.
There was huge talk from the bulk of Leave campaigners about how we could retain all sorts of benefits which were total bollocks unless some form of membership was kept.
The "will of the people" is an absolute rubbish phrase in such a close referendum (and it was extremely close!)
I am one of the "idiots" who happens to think that clearly what was voted for is very hard to implement and should be subject to a confirmation referendum. All this talk of damaging democracy is just people knowing that they have a chance their "side" will lose now that the general public can see what is actually involved. More democracy based on facts rather than supposition is a good idea for this scale of long lasting change.
Cameron's legacy is fucked and May is a joke but there is still a good way to check if this is the cliff we want to leap over and if it is the right thing it will be easy to win another referendum.
Remember, it doesn't end with the deal, it hasn't even fucking started yet with the future relationship! This will be hanging over everyone in the UK for years and I personally think it is a mistake but if people vote with the facts at hand to still go ahead it is hard to argue.
Expect to be pilloried here as a big proportion of the posters are what I would call more "right wing" but I do like to challenge my own views by reading your thoughts so figured I should chip in occasionally.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
second referendum
It was actually kicked off before the result was known by Nigel Farage who said at 52 to 48 this would be unfinished business. (When it was predicted to be a close remain win)
He changed his mind when it went his way funnily enough....
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
He changed his mind when it went his way funnily enough....
You do know that Farage backs a second referendum?
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
second referendum
It was actually kicked off before the result was known by Nigel Farage who said at 52 to 48 this would be unfinished business. (When it was predicted to be a close remain win)
He changed his mind when it went his way funnily enough....
Can kind of understand the logic there. Being in the EU for decades, knowing what it is and people getting increasingly disatisfied with the EU's overreach. Did he mean an immediate referendum or another in many years time kind of like how I'd imagine Australia's Republic referendum might pop up again.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Also worth adding that I dont agree that it was at all clear what you thought "it" was is what would happen.
There was huge talk from the bulk of Leave campaigners about how we could retain all sorts of benefits which were total bollocks unless some form of membership was kept.
The "will of the people" is an absolute rubbish phrase in such a close referendum (and it was extremely close!)
I am one of the "idiots" who happens to think that clearly what was voted for is very hard to implement and should be subject to a confirmation referendum. All this talk of damaging democracy is just people knowing that they have a chance their "side" will lose now that the general public can see what is actually involved. More democracy based on facts rather than supposition is a good idea for this scale of long lasting change.
Cameron's legacy is fucked and May is a joke but there is still a good way to check if this is the cliff we want to leap over and if it is the right thing it will be easy to win another referendum.
Remember, it doesn't end with the deal, it hasn't even fucking started yet with the future relationship! This will be hanging over everyone in the UK for years and I personally think it is a mistake but if people vote with the facts at hand to still go ahead it is hard to argue.
Expect to be pilloried here as a big proportion of the posters are what I would call more "right wing" but I do like to challenge my own views by reading your thoughts so figured I should chip in occasionally.
The point isn't what you or I thought. Leaving the Single Market, Customs Union stopping free movement and ECJ jurisdiction if there was a Leave vote was made explicit by the political parties, Leave and Remain campaigns.
I am one of the "idiots" who happens to think that clearly what was voted for is very hard to implement and should be subject to a confirmation referendum.
Serious question: If Leave won again would you accept that or would you want another, 3rd referendum in 2-3 years time as the actual results of leaving would be, obviously, unpredictable?
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I disagree completely on what Leave meant.
The parties etc did not make it clear. Their mouthpieces were constantly talking about the benefits we would be keeping. (Assume you live in UK so saw all this yourself?)
The old chestnut with a referendum is what is the question.
But yes if all options were put out and still voted to leave then yes I would accept.
I do think the proposal to have No deal vs May's deal is a false choice and would not accept that.
Personally would have two questions
Leave? Y/N
If we Leave Option A Vs Option B
Recognise its complicated
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Good point. Most EU countries had serial referendums on the major changes on the EU's operations/scope - 1992, Maastricht Treaty and Lisbon. The UK was one of the few which didn't - even though pro-EU PMs like Major, Blair & Brown promised there would be one. Amazingly, once people voted to leave the EU, they are now converts to people having a choice
If they had, the level of dissatisfaction with the EU could well have been reduced.
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I see the logic of a vote on what sort ot leave we have. But not a 2nd one on Leave/Remain.
I have zero faith that a 2nd Leave vote would be respected by the Remain lobby They didn't last time so why would they now? - And I voted Remain
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Whereas I think if you are checking the "so called Will of the people" you should actually ask the relevant question and that is leave Vs Remain.
It was extraordinarily close and hasn't been a screw up only because of May (though God she has not helped!) but because it just might not be as easy or as good as it was promised when it was just a concept without having to back it up.
People say it hasn't been respected, I would say every one of the brexiteers who claimed it would be easy ran with their tails between their legs when it wasn't.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Brexit:
@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
He changed his mind when it went his way funnily enough....
You do know that Farage backs a second referendum?
Would be well up for that. I think he is wrong about which way it would go but hey at least it would as he says settle it.
No need for 3rd 4th etc. That's a false argument. Another referendum now would be based on some actual experience of what's on offer and although I tend to think public referenda are not the best for deciding big complex issues. We got into this mess through one so think it's the best way out (either way, if that be a confirmation of leave or an acceptance it was the wrong decision in 2016)
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
Whereas I think if you are checking the "so called Will of the people" you should actually ask the relevant question and that is leave Vs Remain.
It was extraordinarily close and hasn't been a screw up only because of May (though God she has not helped!) but because it just might not be as easy or as good as it was promised when it was just a concept without having to back it up.
I'm not of the opinion that it was close, after all the margin was 3.78%. The problem is the framing of the referendum: The 1975 one was returned over 2:1 and Cameron should have insisted that the new referendum meet the same threshold of two-thirds majority or the status quo remained.
People say it hasn't been respected, I would say every one of the brexiteers who claimed it would be easy ran with their tails between their legs when it wasn't.
That appears to be very true.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
People say it hasn't been respected, I would say every one of the brexiteers who claimed it would be easy ran with their tails between their legs when it wasn't.
Two different things which you really can't conflate,
The result hasn't been respected by a large % of ministers and politicians.
The negotiations and whole Brexit strategy was run by May - a strong Remainer. Brexiters like Gove, Davis, Leadsom & Johnson were frozen out of the process (Davis, The Brexit Secretary, found out about the Chequers Deal less than 12 hours before the Cabinet decided on it).
Had May (a remainer, remember) built a consensus with Brexit members of her Cabinet this whole mess could probably been averted
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But this comes back again to what results are they respecting?
I despise the "Brexit means Brexit" phrase because it is utterly meaningless.
The crew you mention all talked about different version of leaving and almost all of them said no deal wouldn't be an option (some did but a minority, mainly ERG)
Its bloody complex to be fair but I dont buy the line being peddled that there was this one obvious leave that "everyone" voted for. It simply isn't true.
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Though I will whole heartedly agree the conservative May govt has royally screwed it.
Even calling the snap election that made them DUP whipping boys was a remarkably poor effort.
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Agree with all of that except still maintain that is a huge chunk if the country pretty evenly split. (Though acknowledge there is still a clear winner)
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Oh and would also like to add.
For fucks sake Corbyn! We needed an opposition to make this whole thing work and you have been utterly ineffective!
Should have had proper push back and an alternative to the shitstorm of May (even if just to have a Brexit that could actually work) but instead we have had two very ineffective leaders for both of the main two parties.
It sucks
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
The crew you mention all talked about different version of leaving and almost all of them said no deal wouldn't be an option (some did but a minority, mainly ERG)
May was the PM. May was Leader of the Conservatives. It was May's job to build consensus and a common approach on a deal. She failed miserably, May was a Remainer. To blame Brexiteers for her mess or say they failed to come up with a common approach or away when they realised the problems really is untenable.
As for the No Deal, Leavers Johnson, Gove, Leadsom, Raab and Baker all spoke out against and voted against taking No Deal off the table.
I agree it's now complex - but it needn't have been. This whole mess is down to a weak PM with her "my way only" approach , big swathes of MPs - Soubry, Umanna, Cable etc - who didn't like the referendum result and tried to thwart it from day one, and a bunch of fundamentalist nutters in the ERG.
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@Davesofthunder said in Brexit:
For fucks sake Corbyn! We needed an opposition to make this whole thing work and you have been utterly ineffective!
Corbyn's a life-long Leaver. It's probable the only reason he favours a Customs Union with the EU is it stops a UK/US Free Trade Deal
Brexit