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@Rembrandt said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage If I try and turn it on its head. Folau isn't standing against freedom of sexuality. He is just giving a warning about what he believes will happen to them when they die (assuming literal hell rather than metaphorical), there is no force involved. . Extremist protesters, sponsors and ARU are however attempting to use force (as in removal of income) to stop Folau from speaking his beliefs.
I think that is a real stretch. Folau can speak his mind, he won't get imprisoned or beaten (now that's real force). But he has to accept there are consequences for his actions, just like the rest of us do in everyday life
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@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Rembrandt for the second time.
Previously warned. Which for me is a big factor.
And according to the Fitzimmons article his standard contract had no social media clause as it was a standard clause. But there were accompanying documents with the new contract which in essence warned him and his management what would happen if he did it again, and he simply ignored them. He brought this on himself
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Well it's going to be an interesting court case if it comes to that. From what I can tell most people are outraged not by what he said so much as a more extreme interpretation of what he said. I think the ARU made this mistake also rather than follow process.
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@Rembrandt said in The Folau Factor:
@canefan The devil will be in what those details are exactly. Would paraphrasing a bible verse fit? He seems happy enough to stand on principle.
It will. The ARU would look stupid if they offered up a contract for Folau to sign that didn't have something in it to warn him off these social media outbursts. Especially after the first time.
Folau can't be naive enough or stupid enough not to realise exactly what he is doing. There are thousands of verses in the bible and yet he picks up on the same theme as last time? He is entitled to speak his mind, and I am entitled to place him on a level similar to Brian Tamaki and other peddlers of intolerant religion
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@Rembrandt said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage If I try and turn it on its head. Folau isn't standing against freedom of sexuality.
Well given Adulterers and Fornicators raised his ire I would say he is.
An important distinction that seems to have been missed in the rush to lynch him has been is he started from his narrow view of sexuality (between a married man and woman only) and views everything outside of that as a sin in equal measure. I don't think he has singled out homosexuals, or started with the goal of persecuting them specifically and using the bible to justify it.
Subtle difference, but a big one IMO.
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It’s an employment issue when you hold the wrong views. Pocock has a lot of strong political convictions that he shares with the public, but they are politically-correct views, and one suspects he won’t suffer a dime’s loss for promoting any of them. He’ll more likely be patted on the head and promoted as a “courageous” role model.
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@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@JC said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Catogrande said in The Folau Factor:
Courtney lawes has now come to the defence of Billy Vunipola and to my mind makes the most sense of any of the shitlebrity tweets etc.
"I don’t have a faith like yourself my brother so I don’t share the same views in this matter but I do believe you should be able to voice your own opinions and beliefs as you see fit. To everyone getting worked up about these post I ask you if you don’t believe in the same things as them then what do these statements matter to you? Can we not disagree with someone without calling them a bigot or a homophobe or every other name under the sun?"
“And by the way If you’re going to say you’re accepting of everyone then be accepting of everyone, not just the people you agree with.”
Disagree 100%.
Foley is staying thst in his view, they are going to suffer in eternity. His view. He believes he’s going to paradise and non believers, who
Follow their own true feelings, will suffer eternally.A sporting organization selling a product cannot carry this. Right to be sacked,
So you don’t believe in religious freedom?
Why wouldn’t I?
Is that a yes or a no?
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@canefan said in The Folau Factor:
@MajorRage said in The Folau Factor:
@Rembrandt for the second time.
Previously warned. Which for me is a big factor.
And according to the Fitzimmons article his standard contract had no social media clause as it was a standard clause. But there were accompanying documents with the new contract which in essence warned him and his management what would happen if he did it again, and he simply ignored them. He brought this on himself
But contractual terms that try and enforce an abrogation of a legal right such as religious freedom (which, from what I can see, is firmly entrenched at state and federal level and has been affirmed by numerous court cases) are not enforceable. They can’t legally ask him to set aside a human right.
ARU will lose in court, I’ll wager a chocolate fish on it.
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@JC in this day and age, it seems both sides are incredibly stupid.
Folau for posting what he did and not expecting any blow back, and ARU for moving the way they have and not expecting him to fight it, when all signs point to them losing.
After his last time, was he issued with a written warning, if he was and given explicit directives about his actions, and warned not to do this again, despite nothing written into his contract about it, can this be enforced?
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@Salacious-Crumb said in The Folau Factor:
It’s an employment issue when you hold the wrong views. Pocock has a lot of strong political convictions that he shares with the public, but they are politically-correct views, and one suspects he won’t suffer a dime’s loss for promoting any of them. He’ll more likely be patted on the head and promoted as a “courageous” role model.
No I'm sorry this is just bullshit.
Pocock got arrested when he chained himself to a bulldozer a few years ago. While some people called him 'courageous', the ARU actually sent him a warning letter - similar to the one they sent to Folau last year.
You know what he did then? He pulled his head in. He's been pretty silent on the political front lately, and as a result he's faced no repurcussions from the ARU.
And when he has made statements, they are general statements that are inclusive and not related to any minority groups. Because he knows the ARU policies and knows he has to abide by them.
Folau's actually been pretty vocal on religious issues for a long time. His insta is full of posts about Jesus, and nobody has really cared. Until he started involving a minority group, which he's been told numerous times is against ARU policy.
I feel like a broken record on this, but there's a bit of rubbish flying around this thread and I think some things bear repeating.
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@barbarian said in The Folau Factor:
You know what he did then? He pulled his head in. He's been pretty silent on the political front lately, and as a result he's faced no repurcussions from the ARU.
I think this is where this is going to pivot on - legally, how much can ARU control their employees in their social appearances? The fact that Pocock pulled back doesn't necessarily imply that what the ARU did was legal or legit.
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Yup, arrested and STILL EMPLOYED.
Was his contract terminated for breaking the law? Yes-or-no?
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@Salacious-Crumb No, but neither was Quade Cooper's.
Being arrested shouldn't necessarily result in termination. There's room for nuance there, as there has been in the case of Folau.
Edit: It's also worth noting that Pocock had no conviction recorded as a result of the protest.
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Here’s the thing(s) that I think are absurd, ridiculous and effin-hilarious about this, ummmm, scandal...
Folau says people like me (an atheist) is going “straight to Hell.”
I’m not the slightest bit offended, because atheism (allegedly “my choice” according to some) means I don’t believe in Hell. It’s a make-believe concept, in MY opinion. There was a time I would have been stoned to death for believing such thoughts, but it’s what I believe. Folau could have said supporting All Blacks means you will end up in Mordor, and it would be just as equally assinine and not worth seriously contemplating. And for what it’s worth, Leviticus tells us that eating shrimp, lobster and shellfish is just as much an abomination as homosexuality. I’m only disappointed there weren’t enough characters in Folau’s tweet to add that abomination to his 8 groups.
And then again, I suppose Hell is such an indisputably really-real place with a three-headed dog guarding Lucifer and his Seven Circles, that you’d have to make an equally conscious deliberate “choice” not to believe it exists, in the same way that I think Scientology is horsekak. My reckoning is that the onus is on first-earthers, moon-hoax truthers and true believers like Folau to make a convincing argument proving that such a place exists in reality, and not a figment of the imagination. But then, I made the choice to be a heretic, didn’t I?
And that’s what makes me laugh — that the people who are most wound-up and losing their shit about Folau’s comments really seem to believe this Hell place is as real as the Vatican. It’s like losing your mind because of something in a Harry Potter book and pretending it’s the nightly news. It’s manufactured outrage.
Adding: I think Tom Cruise’s religious beliefs are laughably idiotic. But I’m still going to watch his movies, because in spite of his dumbass religious beliefs, I enjoy his films, in the same way that Folau’s religious beliefs have fuckall to do with his brilliant footballing talents.
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God sends liars to hell. Apparently.
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@canefan said in The Folau Factor:
God sends liars to hell. Apparently.
Jeez this pisses me off ...
In dissecting Folau's looming sacking by Rugby Australia last week, Wide World of Sports recalled a first-person column by the Wallabies superstar, written last year after his first harmful social media attack on LGBTIQ people.
What about the asexual? Damn asexualophobics ... where's the "A"?
Hate speech.
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions