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@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
So a referendum is "getting a sense of what people want" as opposed to what must then legally be done.
This bit is often ignored by Brexiteers in their arguments with the Remoaners when they seem to hold that the referendum is some legally binding moment / declaration.But the fun twist with the Brexit referendum though, was if I recall correctly, that the government of the time had promised - pre the referendum - to implement the outcome... So they morally (although not legally) bound themselves to a non-binding vote. Cue the circus.
The trouble with that stance is not only did the government say it would be implemented but many, if not all of the freelancing conservative MPs were on the record saying they would too. This also puts aside there has been a general election in the interim where conservative candidates ran on a platform of delivering Brexit.
I haven't really heard this point made before (at least at this late stage, maybe in the immediate aftermath of the vote), because even the modest ardent remainer accepts that any avenue to reversing Brexit would need to go through a second referendum.
I think the hope was that the referendum would be very close, but lose. And this would be enough for the EU to budge on their freedom of movement policies, which is arguably the biggest issue with the EU principle as a whole.
Nothing wrong with Spanish, Italians, Dutch, French citizens having unequivocal freedom to move around and seek out the best opportunities. There is something inherently wrong with one country deciding to to give out passports as part of their own policy, and those people then being entitled to entire EU freedoms and movement.
I've always wondered if at point in time, behind closed doors if May pointed out to them that a shift in this policy could have avoided this whole clusterfuck. If Tusk had simply changed to something like countries have the right to reject residency to those without jobs, assets, family in countries, this whole thing would have been avoided.
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So it's a three horse race
Tories - Leave under any means
Labour - we'd rather stay in, but if we do go out we don't want a no deal
Lib Dem - Remain, and we'll revoke Article 50 to make sureIt will be interesting to see whether Leave or Remain voters will change allegiance to get the Brexit result they hope for or whether party allegiance is too strong.
A reliable source has told me the Leave voters he's spoken with in S Wales are ready to vote The Brexit Paty or even Conservative to see us leave the EU despite coming from a multi-generational Labour voting background.
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I actually think this is not a bad move from the Lib Dem's although not one I support.
There is a lot of room for a revoke Article 50 party in the UK. Just as there is a Brexit party.
They also aren't pro Corbyn, which helps them out. Should get a lot of pro-Labour, anti-Corbyn votes.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
I've always wondered if at point in time, behind closed doors if May pointed out to them that a shift in this policy could have avoided this whole clusterfuck. If Tusk had simply changed to something like countries have the right to reject residency to those without jobs, assets, family in countries, this whole thing would have been avoided.
Nail. Head.
A thousand times over.Great post.
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The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
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@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
That is a damning ruling.
Effectively says BJ lied to the Queen. In a different time he'd be in the Tower by nowBut you're quite right. The ruling will be appealed. Parliament won't get to sit again until the proroguing period has come to an end anyway. And Boris is pretty slippery. Not sure he will be harmed by all of this.
And if he is as popular as @MajorRage suggests, not sure it will harm him in any way at the polls either.And that last bit is where one should become very concerned. Across the pond, their is another orange-haired bloke who is so popular, he can lie and cheat and basically do what he wants without being held accountable. Not good signs for the UK if the rule-of-law becomes subservient to popularity. Ask me. I live in Africa.
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@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
That is a damning ruling.
Effectively says BJ lied to the Queen. In a different time he'd be in the Tower by nowBut you're quite right. The ruling will be appealed. Parliament won't get to sit again until the proroguing period has come to an end anyway. And Boris is pretty slippery. Not sure he will be harmed by all of this.
And if he is as popular as @MajorRage suggests, not sure it will harm him in any way at the polls either.And that last bit is where one should become very concerned. Across the pond, their is another orange-haired bloke who is so popular, he can lie and cheat and basically do what he wants without being held accountable. Not good signs for the UK if the rule-of-law becomes subservient to popularity. Ask me. I live in Africa.
Yeah, perhaps. Be interesting to see how this pans out - remember Jock law isn't necessarily the same as Pom & Taff law.
I can't speak for everyone re Boris, and most of my circle is London or commuter London based in traditional Tory areas, so I may be overselling his popularity. But I know that everybody is god damned sick of Brexit, and BoJo is playing on that perfectly.
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@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
It's a complete red herring. English High Court ruled that a UK Government is perfectly entitled to prorogue for political reasons. END OF. The preeminent Supreme Court judge, who just retired, was equally unequivocal, and the Court itself will clearly confirm.
If Parliament wants to derive a principle out of this it ought to be let those MPs without sin cast the first stone.
Bring on the election, and let's pray there IS a winner.
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@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
It's a complete red herring. English High Court ruled that a UK Government is perfectly entitled to prorogue for political reasons. END OF. The preeminent Supreme Court judge, who just retired, was equally unequivocal, and the Court itself will clearly confirm.
If Parliament wants to derive a principle out of this it ought to be let those MPs without sin cast the first stone.
Bring on the election, and let's pray there IS a winner.
I think calling it a Red Herring is being a bit too casual, you've had one set of judges saying one thing and another set of judges contradicting that. The definitive judgement is yet to come. I reckon they will find in favour of the Government but will cite some grave concerns, but... we'll see. Either way it is a blow to Boris, not a fatal one by any means, but a blow nonetheless.
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@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
That is a damning ruling.
Effectively says BJ lied to the Queen. In a different time he'd be in the Tower by nowBut you're quite right. The ruling will be appealed. Parliament won't get to sit again until the proroguing period has come to an end anyway. And Boris is pretty slippery. Not sure he will be harmed by all of this.
And if he is as popular as @MajorRage suggests, not sure it will harm him in any way at the polls either.And that last bit is where one should become very concerned. Across the pond, their is another orange-haired bloke who is so popular, he can lie and cheat and basically do what he wants without being held accountable. Not good signs for the UK if the rule-of-law becomes subservient to popularity. Ask me. I live in Africa.
You didn't actually read the article did you....
The equivalent court in England found in his favour. It is just a Scottish court. Ultimately the Supreme Court will decide. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
That is a damning ruling.
Effectively says BJ lied to the Queen. In a different time he'd be in the Tower by nowBut you're quite right. The ruling will be appealed. Parliament won't get to sit again until the proroguing period has come to an end anyway. And Boris is pretty slippery. Not sure he will be harmed by all of this.
And if he is as popular as @MajorRage suggests, not sure it will harm him in any way at the polls either.And that last bit is where one should become very concerned. Across the pond, their is another orange-haired bloke who is so popular, he can lie and cheat and basically do what he wants without being held accountable. Not good signs for the UK if the rule-of-law becomes subservient to popularity. Ask me. I live in Africa.
You didn't actually read the article did you....
The equivalent court in England found in his favour. It is just a Scottish court. Ultimately the Supreme Court will decide.Thanks for checking - and yes I did read it, and a fair few others regarding this. I am well aware of the English court ruling.
Last time I checked though, Scotland was still part of the United Kingdom though - so their ruling holds no less weight than the English court, and it is damning.
If you had read my post more closely, you will have noted that I concur with the view that the ruling will be appealed. -
@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
That is a damning ruling.
Effectively says BJ lied to the Queen. In a different time he'd be in the Tower by nowBut you're quite right. The ruling will be appealed. Parliament won't get to sit again until the proroguing period has come to an end anyway. And Boris is pretty slippery. Not sure he will be harmed by all of this.
And if he is as popular as @MajorRage suggests, not sure it will harm him in any way at the polls either.And that last bit is where one should become very concerned. Across the pond, their is another orange-haired bloke who is so popular, he can lie and cheat and basically do what he wants without being held accountable. Not good signs for the UK if the rule-of-law becomes subservient to popularity. Ask me. I live in Africa.
You didn't actually read the article did you....
The equivalent court in England found in his favour. It is just a Scottish court. Ultimately the Supreme Court will decide.Thanks for checking - and yes I did read it, and a fair few others regarding this. I am well aware of the English court ruling.
Last time I checked though, Scotland was still part of the United Kingdom though - so their ruling holds no less weight than the English court, and it is damning.
If you had read my post more closely, you will have noted that I concur with the view that the ruling will be appealed.I did read your post. And it seemed rather gleeful and rather lopsided. Thus ruling isn't damning of Johnson, that's just wishful thinking.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Brexit:
@Billy-Webb said in Brexit:
@Catogrande said in Brexit:
The first step in bringing Boris to book has been made. Not sure if this means much in itself, the appeal will likely be more interesting.
That is a damning ruling.
Effectively says BJ lied to the Queen. In a different time he'd be in the Tower by nowBut you're quite right. The ruling will be appealed. Parliament won't get to sit again until the proroguing period has come to an end anyway. And Boris is pretty slippery. Not sure he will be harmed by all of this.
And if he is as popular as @MajorRage suggests, not sure it will harm him in any way at the polls either.And that last bit is where one should become very concerned. Across the pond, their is another orange-haired bloke who is so popular, he can lie and cheat and basically do what he wants without being held accountable. Not good signs for the UK if the rule-of-law becomes subservient to popularity. Ask me. I live in Africa.
You didn't actually read the article did you....
The equivalent court in England found in his favour. It is just a Scottish court. Ultimately the Supreme Court will decide.Thanks for checking - and yes I did read it, and a fair few others regarding this. I am well aware of the English court ruling.
Last time I checked though, Scotland was still part of the United Kingdom though - so their ruling holds no less weight than the English court, and it is damning.
If you had read my post more closely, you will have noted that I concur with the view that the ruling will be appealed.I did read your post. And it seemed rather gleeful and rather lopsided. Thus ruling isn't damning of Johnson, that's just wishful thinking.
It is neither. And I don't share your opinion on the ruling. But cest la vie
Not really something I intend getting my knickers in a twist about. -
@Billy-Webb The problem is that Scottish court sought to rely on quirky Scottish Law point whereas High Court ruling absolutely unequivocal: prorogation for political purposes is unquestionably lawful per se. The Scottish reasoning won't get out of starting stalls with Supreme Court.
In meantime, it IS ammo for Labour mud slinging.
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@Billy-Webb The problem is that Scottish court sought to rely on quirky Scottish Law point whereas High Court ruling absolutely unequivocal: prorogation for political purposes is unquestionably lawful per se. The Scottish reasoning won't get out of starting stalls with Supreme Court.
In meantime, it IS ammo for Labour mud slinging.
Not quite. The English court ruling was that it was a political matter and not one for the courts. A bit mealy mouthed really. Sounds like the Supreme Court shenanigans is getting interesting. Could still go either way but you’d assume they will find in favour of the Government.
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The UK Daily Telegraph may have become a shit paper, but it still has the best cartoonist in the business..
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Supreme Court ruling just in:
PM's Advice to Queen Was Void, Unlawful.
Prorogation was void and of no effect.
Parliament has not been prorogued.Huge ruling. Much more damaging to govt than was expected. House of Commons likely to be reconvened immediately. Big blow to Boris. Opposition will call for his resignation. Brexit gets even messier.
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@TeWaio I think that whatever the ruling (and this one surprised me a little) it was going to be a messy outcome, but you're right this is a mighty big spanner in the works.
Is Johnson's position now untenable? He's been shown to be a liar many times before and now he stands as being accused of lying to the Queen. Where now for BoJo?
Brexit