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@Billy-Webb said in British Politics:
@MajorRage said in British Politics:
Note though, my criticism of "the system" is really my point. Rising public popularity vs dropping parliament popularity isn't a new thing. But when it gets to the point that the PM has lost their majority in parliament, surely a general election makes a huge amount of sense.
Intuitively, I get what you're saying.
But in the UK, the premise is that voters vote for a person (MP) to represent their constituency. While this is obviously massively influenced by the party that person belongs to, ultimately each constituency elects a person based on the views and beliefs of that person. If that elected MP crosses the floor, they effectively take their constituency with them. And if you take the view that the elected MP hasn't fundamentally changed what they promised their constituents, then they are signalling that the party they originally belonged to when elected, no longer represents the best interests of their constituents. Public vs Parliamentary popularity has nothing to do with anything in a Westminster system. The most publicly popular politician doesn't necessarily get to be PM. Just see what happened to Winston Churchill toward the back end of WWII.
I am no doubt telling you stuff you know so to your point that surely a general election would make loads of sense - yes, sort of. But if you take the view that constituencies are accurately represented by their MP's whichever benches they occupy, then the other option as I pointed out is for the PM to resign and for the Queen to call on another MP who has the confidence of the House to form a new government. Still then very representative of the will of the people.
It is not a perfect system, but it is not bad.
In the South African context, we have proportional representation i.e. you get the % seats in parliament that correlates with the % vote you received. (Actually it is a bit more complicated than that - but let's leave it there for simplicity sake). The gist is that we don't vote for a person, we vote for a party. Its monumental flaws have recently (over the last decade) been exposed in that the party actually decides who goes to parliament - not the people. So we have ended up with some absolute gems who if we had a constituency based system, would all have lost their electoral deposits. And on top of that, there is no individual a voter in an area can hold responsible for not fulfilling pre-election promises.
To paraphrase WS Churchill: Democracy is the worst form of government - apart from all the other systems we have tried.
Great post and points well made.
My view though is that people are aware that voting for a person means you vote for their party. I could think my local Labour MP was the best possible person on the planet for our area, but I could never vote for them whilst Corbyn is leader of the Labour party. Never.
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Am I reading that graphic correctly i.e. that 485 MPs are Remainers and only 162 are Leavers?
If so, 2 questions:- How is that calculated?
- How, given the 406 Leave constituencies is that even possible?
@MajorRage would be right then.
The system has let everyone down in a (with excuses for the Trump-speak) bigly way. -
@Billy-Webb said in British Politics:
Am I reading that graphic correctly i.e. that 485 MPs are Remainers and only 162 are Leavers?
If so, 2 questions:- How is that calculated?
- How, given the 406 Leave constituencies is that even possible?
@MajorRage would be right then.
The system has let everyone down in a (with excuses for the Trump-speak) bigly way.It highlights one of the problems with referenda. The actual numbers versus the actual constituencies, these can often be quite different. The referendum for Scottish independence was an example. The vote was actually reasonably close but (from memory) only two areas voted to leave, Glasgow being far the biggest population wise. It seems though that pretty much the rest of Scotland would rather be ruled by Westminster than Glasgow. True though that in the Brexit vote both vote numbers and constituencies voted leave but there is a huge disparity in viewing the two.
However, having said all that, you are right the system has let us all down.
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@Catogrande Thanks. But I still don't get the disparity with so many MP's being Remainers? One would expect if the majority of constituencies are for Leave, this should be, at least more closely, reflected by the MPs?
There has been an election since the referendum...
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@Billy-Webb said in British Politics:
@Catogrande Thanks. But I still don't get the disparity with so many MP's being Remainers? One would expect if the majority of constituencies are for Leave, this should be, at least more closely, reflected by the MPs?
There has been an election since the referendum...
I'm not sure one should expect it (said with tongue firmly in cheek) but we should certainly hope it would be the case. But this really is the crux of the problem Population want out. Political masters want in.
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@Billy-Webb said in British Politics:
Am I reading that graphic correctly i.e. that 485 MPs are Remainers and only 162 are Leavers?
If so, 2 questions:- How is that calculated?
- How, given the 406 Leave constituencies is that even possible?
@MajorRage would be right then.
The system has let everyone down in a (with excuses for the Trump-speak) bigly way.Because you keep assuming MPs are representing the views of constituents. They are not.
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@Billy-Webb Not sure myself, when I get a chance I'll dig into it, even the 2/3rds of constituents voting for leave surprised me. I was anti-Brexit at the time of the vote so back then The Guardian was my gospel so skewed reality somewhat.
Just saw this highlighted today. Labour MPs singing for a Marxist revolution in the house of commons. Sickening.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in British Politics:
@Billy-Webb said in British Politics:
Am I reading that graphic correctly i.e. that 485 MPs are Remainers and only 162 are Leavers?
If so, 2 questions:- How is that calculated?
- How, given the 406 Leave constituencies is that even possible?
@MajorRage would be right then.
The system has let everyone down in a (with excuses for the Trump-speak) bigly way.Because you keep assuming MPs are representing the views of constituents. They are not.
That's the only logical conclusion I can come to as well Baron. Goes somewhat to @MajorRage point about the system's flaws I guess.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in British Politics:
@Billy-Webb said in British Politics:
Am I reading that graphic correctly i.e. that 485 MPs are Remainers and only 162 are Leavers?
If so, 2 questions:- How is that calculated?
- How, given the 406 Leave constituencies is that even possible?
@MajorRage would be right then.
The system has let everyone down in a (with excuses for the Trump-speak) bigly way.Because you keep assuming MPs are representing the views of constituents. They are not.
You're right. They are not necessarily (not just in this case but any case) representing the views of their constituents. They are voted in on their views on policy etc to act on behalf of their constituents who have voted them in. The referendum brings a whole different problem in that the views of the constituents might, on one issue, be opposed to the views of the person voted in. It's a difficult situation and I can see why it doesn't sit well with many, myself included. One of the reasons I think referenda are trouble waiting to happen.
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@Catogrande However they are loudly proclaiming to be acting on behalf of constituents... And that doesn't even start to explain refusing an election.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in British Politics:
@Catogrande However they are loudly proclaiming to be acting on behalf of constituents... And that doesn't even start to explain refusing an election.
No. It's a bloody mess isn't it?
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@Rembrandt said in British Politics:
@Billy-Webb Not sure myself, when I get a chance I'll dig into it, even the 2/3rds of constituents voting for leave surprised me. I was anti-Brexit at the time of the vote so back then The Guardian was my gospel so skewed reality somewhat.
Just saw this highlighted today. Labour MPs singing for a Marxist revolution in the house of commons. Sickening.
Singing?
Sounded more like the usual wailing.
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@Rembrandt said in British Politics:
About bloody time. We all know that white men are naturally evil. I think with this victory true equality is now within our grasp!
Well played.
I can see all the parents of 5-year old prep school pupils encouraging their little darlings to join Freddy, Filbert and Penelope and become FIREFIGHTERS.
Said no one ever.
Fucking idiots.
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@MiketheSnow said in British Politics:
@Rembrandt said in British Politics:
About bloody time. We all know that white men are naturally evil. I think with this victory true equality is now within our grasp!
Well played.
I can see all the parents of 5-year old prep school pupils encouraging their little darlings to join Freddy, Filbert and Penelope and become FIREFIGHTERS.
Said no one ever.
Fucking idiots.
If you liked that, you'll love this:
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@TeWaio said in British Politics:
@MiketheSnow said in British Politics:
@Rembrandt said in British Politics:
About bloody time. We all know that white men are naturally evil. I think with this victory true equality is now within our grasp!
Well played.
I can see all the parents of 5-year old prep school pupils encouraging their little darlings to join Freddy, Filbert and Penelope and become FIREFIGHTERS.
Said no one ever.
Fucking idiots.
If you liked that, you'll love this:
No issue with that.
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@Rembrandt said in British Politics:
About bloody time. We all know that white men are naturally evil. I think with this victory true equality is now within our grasp!
Postman Pat and Bob the Builder must be shitting themselves.
Dora the Explorer gets a pass.
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@MiketheSnow said in British Politics:
@Rembrandt said in British Politics:
About bloody time. We all know that white men are naturally evil. I think with this victory true equality is now within our grasp!
Postman Pat and Bob the Builder must be shitting themselves.
Dora the Explorer gets a pass.
Postman Pat has retired. He's just called Pat now.
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@Catogrande said in British Politics:
@MiketheSnow said in British Politics:
@Rembrandt said in British Politics:
About bloody time. We all know that white men are naturally evil. I think with this victory true equality is now within our grasp!
Postman Pat and Bob the Builder must be shitting themselves.
Dora the Explorer gets a pass.
Postman Pat has retired. He's just called Pat now.
He's still known as Postman Pat down the pub.
My old man was in a male voice choir when he was alive and as you can imagine there were quite a lot of Davids among the choristers.
One was a postman who was always late for the bus on concert day so he became
Dai Second Post
British Politics