Black Lives Matter
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
To put it bluntly, children born into poverty and raised by parent(s) that are full of (understandable) resentment towards society are far less likely to be successful and far more likely to fall into a life of crime. And then the same for their kids.
I strongly agree, but would suggest maybe race itself isn't the major factor but simply describes the demographic which is stuck in this cycle of poverty, minimal good parenting etc. And if it was all about "systemic white racism" in the US, as BLM insist, then Asian americans wouldn't be as successful as they are.
It's interesting to note that in the UK, Afro-Caribbean Britons outperform white Britons significantly in many social measures such as education & life expectancy, and the demographic with the consistently worst life-chances are the white, working class and have been for decades.
The cynic in me thinks it's easier to focus our attention onto an easily identifiable societal group, look for simplistic solutions like race quotas and feel virtuous rather than take the hard steps needed to reduce the poverty/poor parenting/low ambition issues across all of society.
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@nzzp said in US Politics:
@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Tim said in US Politics:
There is all sorts of fucked up in that article. Not the article itself but the incidents they mention.
I actually felt sorry for Mr Fang.What boggles my mind is that suppressing views and debate is only good if you are 100% aligned with those who decide what's ok. And what happens when what's ok changes and you're outside the rent suddenly? It's damn scary, and seems to be moving towards thought crime and away from classic liberalism.
It's been described as hyperliberalism, which ironically is illiberal when it comes to tolerating dissent.
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@nzzp said in US Politics:
those who decide what's ok
Therein lies the problem.
That is why we are now allowed to express differing opinions on here - Google don't decide.
(A bunch of random blokes do, but the they are pretty tolerant).Actually tolerance is part of the discussion - accepting that Mr Fang thinks that all violence is newsworthy, not just the more obviously racist stuff.
They ought to hire the Baron to moderate.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Siam I'm not sure how you could deny the effects when it is plain to see. To put it bluntly, children born into poverty and raised by parent(s) that are full of (understandable) resentment towards society are far less likely to be successful and far more likely to fall into a life of crime. And then the same for their kids.
That there are those who have managed to overcome that (against the odds IMO) does not mean it's not a significant factor. I don't see an issue with acknowledging that. What we do about it is a different question altogether.
The way you've responded is to highlight poverty, rather than ancestral rascism.
I don't buy that someone's great grandchildren are somehow responsible to the great grandchildren of someone they dudded/oppressed/enslaved.
And whilst resentment may be entirely understandable, unless the disadvantaged espouse education and hard work they are unlikely to get ahead. But that takes community acceptance or else those who try and improve themselves get bullied and derailed. The Jewish as a group were once highly disadvantaged and despised but have traditionally valued education and graft and have raised themselves into being elite in many countries.
And poverty also effects the white poor in US. Corny it may seem to refer to it, but the hit novel, Hillbilly Elegy, provides a graphic description of the problem.
On a slightly different front, I think I read that 75% of US Black criminals had no father. The book, Freakonomics, points out that the improvement in NYC crime came just on 18 years after abortion was legalised.
All that said, I hope we can all agree that equality of opportunity for all ought to be objective that is strived for by Governments.
But the communities themselves have to be prepared to take it.
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@pakman said in US Politics:
It's been described as hyperliberalism, which ironically is illiberal when it comes to toelrating dissent.
Might be time for me to re-visit my old OU stuff around the intellectual battle between Enlightenment ideals & Romanticism....
(Gets coat and calls taxi)
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
intellectual battle between Enlightenment ideals & Romanticism..
Are you sure you're not imagining things?
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Siam I'm not sure how you could deny the effects when it is plain to see. To put it bluntly, children born into poverty and raised by parent(s) that are full of (understandable) resentment towards society are far less likely to be successful and far more likely to fall into a life of crime. And then the same for their kids.
That there are those who have managed to overcome that (against the odds IMO) does not mean it's not a significant factor. I don't see an issue with acknowledging that. What we do about it is a different question altogether.
Maybe those that do don't buy into the 'I'm a victim' stories. If any group does then it may become a significant factor
And the key is to look at how it is today. Not dwell on the past. If there are issues today address it. Not only a very small part that may no longer be an issue anymore
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Depends mainly on whether that racial group values education and getting ahead and are thus raised with values of graft, self denial to get ahead.
Jews, Chinese, Indian immigrants have all faced discrimination.
But their cultures place more emphasis on getting ahead than white culture and more than black culture. Those black Americans that made it getting ahead a priority and did it. I see it a cultural attitude thing, not evil whitey with his thumb on the scales. It comes down the right family values, and I'd say it is a massive advantage not just to be raised by a single mother. -
@Frank said in US Politics:
Depends mainly on whether that racial group values education and getting ahead and are thus raised with values of graft, self denial to get ahead.
Jews, Chinese, Indian immigrants have all faced discrimination.
But their cultures place more emphasis on getting ahead than white culture and more than black culture. Those black Americans that made it made getting ahead a priority and did it. I see it a cultural attitude thing, not evil whitey with his thumb on the scales. It comes down the right family values, and I'd say it is a massive advantage not just to be raised by a single mother.Great point Frank, beat me to it. The problem is multifactorial, and no one has the answer yet. Just saying it's because of one thing, like racism isn't the whole picture and isn't entirely helpful because it doesn't make people look at themselves and see what they could do different
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it's about poverty. inter-generational poverty, and the shit outcomes that continue down the generations due to lack of education etc. if you grow up rich, safe, educated, then so do your kids. if you don't, neither do they. that's not complicated, and it is very much statistically verified.
just because a few people make it from shit circumstances doesn't mean the circumstances don't matter, and it doesn't mean that you have the right to accuse the rest of them of failing because of some victim mentality, or because they're black rather than asian or jewish. the arrogance of that is astonishing, it is racist as fuck, and slavery goes a bit further than discrimination. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
To put it bluntly, children born into poverty and raised by parent(s) that are full of (understandable) resentment towards society are far less likely to be successful and far more likely to fall into a life of crime. And then the same for their kids.
I strongly agree, but would suggest maybe race itself isn't the major factor but simply describes the demographic which is stuck in this cycle of poverty, minimal good parenting etc. And if it was all about "systemic white racism" in the US, as BLM insist, then Asian americans wouldn't be as successful as they are.
It's interesting to note that in the UK, Afro-Caribbean Britons outperform white Britons significantly in many social measures such as education & life expectancy, and the demographic with the consistently worst life-chances are the white, working class and have been for decades.
The cynic in me thinks it's easier to focus our attention onto an easily identifiable societal group, look for simplistic solutions like race quotas and feel virtuous rather than take the hard steps needed to reduce the poverty/poor parenting/low ambition issues across all of society.
Race is a major factor when asking why certain racial groups are over represented in the cycle of poverty. And extreme racism in the recent past a key part of that, whether in the States, NZ or Aus. Granted there are many other factors at play, but I don't see why people are denying that aspect of it.
Otherwise I agree with what you are saying completely. I've already said I don't believe the systems we have today are inherently racist towards any one group of people, in fact I strongly believe the exact opposite. The system by in large treats people as individuals first and we should be very careful not to change that.
But the fact remains there are certain racial demographics that are not doing as well and past injustices are a big reason for that, so the question remains what do we actually do about that?
My wife and I have had many discussions about this, especially recently with the BLM movement kicking off worldwide. For context my wife's mother is an Indigenous Australian from the Torres Straight, so this subject is close to her heart in the Australian context.
One thing we absolutely (and obviously IMO) agree on is dismantling the police, dismantling the "system", dismantling fucking everything is just a ridiculous thing to be advocating for. I don't think most people want this, but as it's a controversial thing to say the media will shine a light on those that do as that generates outrage/clicks.
We also agree that targeting solutions to lift people out of poverty by race is not helpful and tends to do more damage than good. My wife has a particular dislike of the Social Justice left victimising the hell out of her people and the psychological damage that is doing.
In saying that, one thing my wife feels very strongly about is reconnecting the disaffected youth with their culture and instilling some pride. This has been proven to get good outcomes, but at the moment a lot of what they see and hear is negative depictions of their race through the media and social media.
Also, a focus on the family unit and ensuring children grow up with a father figure seems to be another key piece of the puzzle.
But one thing that has been proven over and over again is that when the state tries to intervene they invariably make things worse. The solutions/improvements really have to be community led to have a a positive and lasting impact.
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
it's about poverty. inter-generational poverty, and the shit outcomes that continue down the generations due to lack of education etc. if you grow up rich, safe, educated, then so do your kids. if you don't, neither do they. that's not complicated, and it is very much statistically verified.
just because a few people make it from shit circumstances doesn't mean the circumstances don't matter, and it doesn't mean that you have the right to accuse the rest of them of failing because of some victim mentality, or because they're black rather than asian or jewish. the arrogance of that is astonishing, it is racist as fuck, and slavery goes a bit further than discrimination.So what do you suggest?
My view is honestly identify the relevant factors TODAY (like unemployment, single parent families, educational standards, poverty etc)and address them for everyone (bringing jobs back from almost slave labor countries would be a good starter).
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@reprobate
Yeah, call attention to black culture's internal failing and you are a racist.Call attention to a racial group as a means of comparison that has done significantly better despite being gassed by the millions in World War 2 (which was much more recently than slavery) and you're a racist.
The inter-generational poverty argument is correct as a backward looking cause, but the only way to solve it is internal attitudinal shifts toward success in society. Otherwise, 500 years from now we'll still be hearing about it. With a bunch of white liberals being totally sucked in.
I think the vast vast majority of white people in America (including Trump voters - shock gasp) are good non-racist people who want to see everyone succeed. They are not working to keep blacks down.
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@No-Quarter Complete dismissal and refusal to engage. Makes claims like the below entirely believable
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I'll pen a longer post when I have time, but the last couple of pages has made me a little bit uncomfortable.
A group of (presumably) white men from Australia and NZ going back and forth in furious agreement that racism in the US is overblown and stating the key to fixing any issues is 'not to dwell on the past'.
I think we might need to step back from time to time and recognise we (the wise internet gurus of the Fern) may not be best placed to understand these issues as well as we think we might. Or as well as the long line of prominent, intelligent commentators who hold differing views.
Not to silence anyone's viewpoint, because it's always good to have a place to air opinions. And this discussion is for everyone of every background. But that doesn't obscure the reality that the vast majority of us here haven't experienced racism in the US, and that does have an impact on how we view the situation.
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@barbarian said in US Politics:
I'll pen a longer post when I have time, but the last couple of pages has made me a little bit uncomfortable.
and maybe address the points raised in the (excellent) Berkeley letter noted below
And it's from a person of color so your dig at white men doesn't apply
It shouldn’t affect the strength of my argument above, but for the record, I write as a person of color.
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@barbarian pretty sure that's almost exactly what I've been arguing the last few pages?
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Are we now pointing out that the situation isn't black and white? That two observations can be true at the same time? That people can bee rightly outraged at the manner of the death of George Floyd, recognise community outrage and yet ponder on the benefit to the same community that destroys its own infrastructure and businesses? That historical injustices still have a bearing on the disenfranchisement of people today? That the media attention to this event (ably fanning the protests) is grossly disproportionate given other events?
That the world wide response is clearly less to do with the worth of lives than using it as a vehicle to piggyback their own grievances?
Or are we supposed to pick a side and scream from the sidelines?
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
it's about poverty. inter-generational poverty, and the shit outcomes that continue down the generations due to lack of education etc. if you grow up rich, safe, educated, then so do your kids. if you don't, neither do they. that's not complicated, and it is very much statistically verified.
just because a few people make it from shit circumstances doesn't mean the circumstances don't matter, and it doesn't mean that you have the right to accuse the rest of them of failing because of some victim mentality, or because they're black rather than asian or jewish. the arrogance of that is astonishing, it is racist as fuck, and slavery goes a bit further than discrimination.The people who are saying it's all down to a victim mentality have the same problem as the people who say it is all down to race. And it's not only blacks in America who have a so-called "mentality" problem - we still commemorate the holocaust, don't we?
Anyway, the race thing is clearly factor but, to me, it works a bit (ironically) like a race, except that, because of slavery and Jim Crow and other things, blacks in America are starting a fair way behind. You can say that Jews, Asians, Irish and Italians as groups all suffered from discrimination at various points in American history and you would be absolutely correct. The difference of course is that, even though they started behind "white" Americans in the race to success due to amongst other things racial discrimination, they still (for many reasons, which include slavery etc.) started in front of African Americans and, importantly, stopped being discriminated against earlier.
So, while I agree with the premise that we don't have "systemic racism" in places like America anymore (in the sense that we don't have legalised racism or race-based discrimination), the legacy of racism means that many (perhaps most?) African Americans are starting from so far behind that they aren't even able to take advantage of or properly participate in this race-neutral society. (I should say that the same probably also goes for Native Americans.)