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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
Funny how someone who came closest to having a private sector paid job was a part time gig at the Morrinsville chip shop would assume business owners will just dip into their bottomless font of cash to make her workers' dreams come true
A bit naive. For sure there is a tipping point and I’m not entirely sure that they understand we’re that should lie.
However these same arguments have been held since Adam was a cowboy.
5 day working week! How will my business survive? The world will collapse!
Businesses adapt and the world changes.
Maybe it is more important to have more leave in these times of two income earners? Maybe it isn’t sustainable as a society to have business plans based around paying non living wages? Does that societal need outweigh the commercial parts of the economy?
The thresholds for these decisions constantly change and get tested. Up to the pollies to sell us the change or not.
I do think that many of the business victims of COVID would have been running on a knife edge anyway and we need to decide if that is really a beneficial situation for people to be encouraged into.
There are certainly short term benefits to that but also pitfalls for a country if we rely on unsustainable models. -
On the Sick Leave thing. I don't think it needs to be doubled. They should just legislate that it can accumulate.
In my experience the only people who consistently take their 5 days p.a. are the malingerers who treat it as holiday entitlement and fuck off with giving them an extra week and the poor bastards who get something serious.
Some companies don't allow you to accumulate sick leave. Legislating for this would still restrict the cheaters to 5 days p.a. as they always take all of it but protect those that really need help.
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@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
On the Sick Leave thing. I don't think it needs to be doubled. They should just legislate that it can accumulate.
In my experience the only people who consistently take their 5 days p.a. are the malingerers who treat it as holiday entitlement and fuck off with giving them an extra week and the poor bastards who get something serious.
Some companies don't allow you to accumulate sick leave. Legislating for this would still restrict the cheaters to 5 days p.a. as they always take all of it but protect those that really need help.
That's really sensible.
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@dogmeat at my last job, I accumulated 100 days sick leave, then it stopped accumulating, unfortunately they didnt pay me that out when they made me redundant...funnily I had had maybe 2 sick days in 5 years, yet the weeks leading into my last day there I had half a dozen or so, stress I reckon haha
I think my current job has 10 days (been here for 5 years) I just checked, my last sick day was in 2017.
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@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial Sorry buddy, you fail the compassion test.
I was shaking my head at the lack of empathy. That's people losing jobs, livelihoods and in some cases houses and their family. Not to mention suicide.
What bullshit. I have a heap of empathy with small businesses in that situation. I used to be one of them.
Putting empathy aside though I can also say through experience that some businesses on the edge add little to the economy in either positive or non negative terms.
We have become the nation of shopkeepers and that energy and productivity should be found another outlet. At least we should try to find those outlets. -
@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial Sorry buddy, you fail the compassion test.
I was shaking my head at the lack of empathy. That's people losing jobs, livelihoods and in some cases houses and their family. Not to mention suicide.
What bullshit. I have a heap of empathy with small businesses in that situation. I used to be one of them.
Putting empathy aside though I can also say through experience that some businesses on the edge add little to the economy in either positive or non negative terms.
We have become the nation of shopkeepers and that energy and productivity should be found another outlet. At least we should try to find those outlets.Perhaps you could have another shot at this sentence then;
"I do think that many of the business victims of COVID would have been running on a knife edge anyway and we need to decide if that is really a beneficial situation for people to be encouraged into"
Because it reads terribly to me.
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@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@Kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial Sorry buddy, you fail the compassion test.
I was shaking my head at the lack of empathy. That's people losing jobs, livelihoods and in some cases houses and their family. Not to mention suicide.
What bullshit. I have a heap of empathy with small businesses in that situation. I used to be one of them.
Putting empathy aside though I can also say through experience that some businesses on the edge add little to the economy in either positive or non negative terms.
We have become the nation of shopkeepers and that energy and productivity should be found another outlet. At least we should try to find those outlets.Perhaps you could have another shot at this sentence then;
"I do think that many of the business victims of COVID would have been running on a knife edge anyway and we need to decide if that is really a beneficial situation for people to be encouraged into"
Because it reads terribly to me.
Depending on the lens you are using.
I am talking about the structure of our economy and that over a long time a lack of good work opportunities has Created a lot of small small businesses that run very tight and are at risk of folding from market upsets.
I would think it would be preferable for productivity to drive more incentives into developing less fragile jobs.
That is a bit of a pipe dream I know but that was the origin of the comment.
If you want to read it as some callous disregard for others wellbeing then I probably can’t change that view as it wasn’t the intention -
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@JC based on the polls, clearly the people value hope optimism and kindness, over a fighter and a doer. I'd agree neither team inspire the imagination
People can be stupid (that is, if they don't like the people I like)
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@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial It is callous disregard. Dress it up or justify it how you like, but it’s dismissive of people who deserve better.
Don’t try and apply a completely unintended attribute to what I wrote. It is an absolute insult.
I have explained in further detail to try and remove a misreading but for some reason you want to assume otherwise.
It is a terrible fact that some people have had their lives upended as a consequence of COVID but that doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a system that encourages businesses that rely on underpaid staff to create minimal profit.
The point is more that we may have a small opportunity here to rethink how to grow a resilient economy. -
@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial It is callous disregard. Dress it up or justify it how you like, but it’s dismissive of people who deserve better.
Don’t try and apply a completely unintended attribute to what I wrote. It is an absolute insult.
I have explained in further detail to try and remove a misreading but for some reason you want to assume otherwise.
It is a terrible fact that some people have had their lives upended as a consequence of COVID but that doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a system that encourages businesses that rely on underpaid staff to create minimal profit.
The point is more that we may have a small opportunity here to rethink how to grow a resilient economy.I think @Crucial highlighting that the crisis showed a lot of business models were inherently shaky to begin with is a good point, and its perfectly valid to talk about it. It's not "callous disregard" - are we not supposed to have honest discussions about structural issues in the economy, because people sadly lost jobs and businesses?
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@Crucial said in NZ Politics:
@JC said in NZ Politics:
@Crucial It is callous disregard. Dress it up or justify it how you like, but it’s dismissive of people who deserve better.
Don’t try and apply a completely unintended attribute to what I wrote. It is an absolute insult.
I have explained in further detail to try and remove a misreading but for some reason you want to assume otherwise.
It is a terrible fact that some people have had their lives upended as a consequence of COVID but that doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a system that encourages businesses that rely on underpaid staff to create minimal profit.
The point is more that we may have a small opportunity here to rethink how to grow a resilient economy.Don’t act all hurt. You said “5 day working week! How will my business survive? The world will collapse! Businesses adapt and the world changes.” Own it.
You’ve completely glossed over the fact that otherwise perfectly OK businesses were discriminated against by a policy, however well-intentioned, that transferred revenue from small companies to large corporates when the decision was made to force people to buy their meat ( for example) from chain supermarkets rather than butchers. Then changes to the minimum wage for some of those same employers. Then proposing a new public holiday. Then more sick leave. And every single time you come out with the same argument, basically that it’s only a small change and if the businesses can’t deal with it maybe they shouldn’t be in business. We both know it’s not a single change, it’s a series of changes heaped on a damaged sector.
Now you post something that suggests they’re just whinging: “how will my business survive”. You’re talking about absolute insults? That’s one right there. People took their lives over this. That actually happened. Maybe show some respect and you’ll get some in return.
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Moving away from Crucial for a moment.
I’ve been reading way to much glee and enthusiasm from people keen to use this crisis to rework the economy to be more in line with their political leanings.
Pointing at businesses saying “see, it’s all broken, tear it all down”
Take away customers, then of course a business will fail. It’s a testament to how resilient they are that they so many have been able to survive for six months in this stupid system where the government picks the winners.
Only a matter of time though, a few lockdowns caused by an incompetent border policy and we are going to see more gone.
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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
Universities might be next
Universities already hard hit. I have heard they are actively looking at selling land to shore up income, due to lack of overseas enrolments. Seriously people, it's tough out there, and it's only the start of the downturn. Things will get much worse before they get better.
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@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@canefan said in NZ Politics:
Universities might be next
Universities already hard hit. I have heard they are actively looking at selling land to shore up income, due to lack of overseas enrolments. Seriously people, it's tough out there, and it's only the start of the downturn. Things will get much worse before they get better.
No overseas students next year unis are suffering big time. And all the businesses that depend on them, such as landlords, and service businesses nearby are in trouble. There has to be a way to get these kids in
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The talk about SMEs on the edge pre covid is a bit disappointing. They can be turned around and weren't all doomed to fail in a recession. Mine was a breakeven type enterprise when I got it a couple of years ago. It is now profitable and we have added one staff member. It's about doing things differently not necessarily a bad business model that was going broke.
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@Snowy said in NZ Politics:
The talk about SMEs on the edge pre covid is a bit disappointing. They can be turned around and weren't all doomed to fail in a recession. Mine was a breakeven type enterprise when I got it a couple of years ago. It is now profitable and we have added one staff member. It's about doing things differently not necessarily a bad business model that was going broke.
The comment wasn't meant to be a catch all that referred to all SMEs or a criticism of business acumen. It was more about how some business models served a purpose but were unlikely to sustain much of a hit.
The comment in full context was an attempt to open a discussion on whether businesses that are only viable on low wages are actually as valuable to the economy as they are made out to be.
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