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@dogmeat said in US Politics:
He's not even the most morally reprehensible. You don't even have to go back to the slave days. 100 years ago you had Harding.
Or FDR. Jessie Owens points out he was excluded from from being invited to the White House with other athletes. “Hitler didn’t snub me, he gave a friendly little salute—it was our president who snubbed me,” he said months after the Games. “The president didn’t even send me a telegram.”
And then there was his aptitude to Japanese - Americans and his plans to overthrow the Supreme Court by packing it with his yes-men.
Trump's a bit of a wimp really, in the bad-boy stakes
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@Victor-Meldrew yeah as with my edit which took a while coz of this thing called work - the guys I mentioned were just examples. I agree re Obama and also about Carter Bush etc doing some good stuff. Ford pardoned Nixon which was pretty cynical and then had the oil crisis so was always going to struggle.
Hasn't been a really effective President in my lifetime IMO. Which says a lot about the political system.
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@dogmeat said in US Politics:
Hasn't been a really effective President in my lifetime IMO. Which says a lot about the political system.
Not since George H W. I feel. Bit overshadowed by Ronnie, but a fairly safe pair of hands.
Bush had a wicked wit too. During the Iran-Contra scandal, the Democrats were asking what he knew about it by repeatedly asking "Where was George?, Where was George?" When Ted Kennedy joined in, Bush, obviously having had enough, flattened him by replying "At home, sober, with my wife, and with the car in the garage" Ouch.
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@Victor-Meldrew It’s a bit of a stretch to blame Obama for making healthcare partisan isn’t it? It’s been a disaster area since at least Slick Willy‘a time. If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
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@JC said in US Politics:
If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
I'd argue Obama was either too thick to see appointing Hilary would prevent a non-partisan approach or did it deliberately to scupper any chance of a non-partisan approach so he and the Democrats could claim all the credit.
Personally, I'd bet on the latter.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@JC said in US Politics:
If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
I'd argue Obama was either too thick to see appointing Hilary would prevent a non-partisan approach or did it deliberately to scupper any chance of a non-partisan approach so he and the Democrats could claim all the credit.
Personally, I'd bet on the latter.
Obama was no duffer.
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@JC Unpopular view on here but I don't really rate Ronnie. Lucky yes. Good times for the country Yes. I'd say an effective administration rather than President.
Probably influenced by my personal experiences living in Netherlands and UK through his terms.
Nevertheless he, LBJ and Nixon probably the .... best... in my time.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@JC said in US Politics:
If I recall he tried to install Hillary to head up a healthcare reform group and the Republicans lost their shit.
I'd argue Obama was either too thick to see appointing Hilary would prevent a non-partisan approach or did it deliberately to scupper any chance of a non-partisan approach so he and the Democrats could claim all the credit.
Personally, I'd bet on the latter.
...so it would have been Obama being partisan...for don't doing something that would stop the Republicans from acting partisan? so if he didn't take the high road its all his fault?
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@Victor-Meldrew I don't disagree that Obama screwed the pooch on healthcare. I guess my point was it was partisan for a long time before that though, at least as far back as Clinton's attempt in 1993. The Republicans attacked that specifically because it was likely to enhance the perception of the Democrats. It was a directly partisan attack (look up the Kristol memos). It's just not correct to think that all the partisan bullshit is all down to the Democrats.
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@dogmeat said in US Politics:
Nevertheless he, LBJ and Nixon probably the .... best... in my time.
I'd put Reagan and LBJ top of the list in my time. Both articulated a vison and worked to it, reached out across the political divide, took risks when they needed to and seemed to relate to Joe Public
Both showed a lot of moral courage too - LBJ in facing down the racist elements in his party and Reagan standing up against anti-gay religious bigotry at considerable risk to his political career.
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@JC said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew I don't disagree that Obama screwed the pooch on healthcare. I guess my point was it was partisan for a long time before that though, at least as far back as Clinton's attempt in 1993. The Republicans attacked that specifically because it was likely to enhance the perception of the Democrats. It was a directly partisan attack (look up the Kristol memos). It's just not correct to think that all the partisan bullshit is all down to the Democrats.
Oh, for sure. The Republicans under Gingrich were a disgrace and a bigger stain on US politics that the one on Jenifer Flowers dress.
It's just that I recall McCain and the Rep. senate leader holding out a hand which Obama either didn't see or didn't want to see.
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@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
...so it would have been Obama being partisan...for don't doing something that would stop the Republicans from acting partisan? so if he didn't take the high road its all his fault?
My point is there was probably an opportunity for a bi-partisan approach on Healthcare which Obama blew - either deliberately or because he didn't understand the consequences of his actions.
This sort of stuff has been going on with healthcare in the US for decades. Ironically, Trump's probably the first President not to actually tinker with health care for yonks
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Mentioning tricky Dicky prompted me to look up the exact quote he made when he declined the urgings of Republicans, including Eisenhower, to contest the 1960 election result on the basis of alleged voting irregularities in two swing states
Here it is
"I could think of no worse example for nations abroad, who for the first time were trying to put free electoral procedures into effect, than that of the United States wrangling over the results of our presidential election, and even suggesting that the presidency itself could be stolen by thievery at the ballot box".
As President Nixon is known for (finally) getting out of Vietnam and the China rapprochement but domestically he was responsible for a number of social security reforms, the first affirmative action programme, created the OSH and Environmental Protection Agencies. Apart from the foreign initiatives in Asia he signed SALT1 and tried to resolve the Arab/Israeli succeeding in ousting Russian influence in Egypt.
He did extend the North Vietnamese bombing campaign into Cambodia and struggled to contain inflation and there was the Watergate thing - but his record stacks up pretty well against those of most Presidents. Shame about his paranoia and other psychotic issues.
Massively unpopular in the early 70's as everything unravelled but an interesting character.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
...so it would have been Obama being partisan...for don't doing something that would stop the Republicans from acting partisan? so if he didn't take the high road its all his fault?
My point is there was probably an opportunity for a bi-partisan approach on Healthcare which Obama blew - either deliberately or because he didn't understand the consequences of his actions.
This sort of stuff has been going on with healthcare in the US for decades. Ironically, Trump's probably the first President not to actually tinker with health care for yonks
I thought he wanted to but his plans were blocked?
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@dogmeat said in US Politics:
Mentioning tricky Dicky prompted me to look up the exact quote he made when he declined the urgings of Republicans, including Eisenhower, to contest the 1960 election result on the basis of alleged voting irregularities in two swing states
Here it is
"I could think of no worse example for nations abroad, who for the first time were trying to put free electoral procedures into effect, than that of the United States wrangling over the results of our presidential election, and even suggesting that the presidency itself could be stolen by thievery at the ballot box".
As President Nixon is known for (finally) getting out of Vietnam and the China rapprochement but domestically he was responsible for a number of social security reforms, the first affirmative action programme, created the OSH and Environmental Protection Agencies. Apart from the foreign initiatives in Asia he signed SALT1 and tried to resolve the Arab/Israeli succeeding in ousting Russian influence in Egypt.
He did extend the North Vietnamese bombing campaign into Cambodia and struggled to contain inflation and there was the Watergate thing - but his record stacks up pretty well against those of most Presidents. Shame about his paranoia and other psychotic issues.
Massively unpopular in the early 70's as everything unravelled but an interesting character.
In his case, Watergate is the first thing that enters most people's mind when you mention him, despite the good things he did
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
a bigger stain on US politics that the one on Jenifer Flowers dress
You got the correct "not a sexual encounter" for Bill there?
I think it was Monica that had the laundry Bill (yes), but it does get a bit confusing. Good to see Jennifer spelled with a "J". Ms Flowers parents didn't get it. Gennifer belongs in the bogan names thread. Jennifer is welsh for "the fair one" which is nowhere near as much fun as Bronwyn which basically means nice tits.
I'm actually not sure how much any of the Presidents achieve, most of them are just figureheads for what goes on underneath them (no not Bill) but congress, the senate and even the "civil service" bureaucracy. The ideas come from elsewhere and they take the credit / or blame.
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@canefan said in US Politics:
I thought he wanted to but his plans were blocked?
Think he advocated a range of options when running in 2016 but gave up on anything major (probably wise) post election when he saw it wouldn't pass.
Probably wanted to replace it with exactly the same thing but call it TrumpCare...
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@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@canefan said in US Politics:
I thought he wanted to but his plans were blocked?
Think he advocated a range of options when running in 2016 but gave up on anything major (probably wise) post election when he saw it wouldn't pass.
Probably wanted to replace it with exactly the same thing but call it TrumpCare...
But better. The best ever....
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@Snowy said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
a bigger stain on US politics that the one on Jenifer Flowers dress
You got the correct "not a sexual encounter" for Bill there?
Probably. So many even Slick Willy would lose his head and get confused
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