Jones Vs Barnes ...



  • Well, not really - but there is an excerpt from an interview on the herald of the man who loves to hate NZ (Jones) with the guy that alot of NZ loves to hate (Barnes).

    The only comment I have is that I don't remember Jones taking such a view on things when writing about Pollock after he dared to penalise BOD in the first lions game in 2013.

    I do actually agree with him that alot of the vindication of Barnes was quite a disgrace to New Zealand ... but I don't think he's the man to be pointing this out given his (often borderline racist & xenophobic) columns he's written about NZ, amongst others.



  • I assume there is more to the article, but i ain't signing up for shit (although the first paragraph calls the Aviva Premiership the "hardest arena of all". shameless).

    Poor wee Wayne. You done fucked up son, cop the heat.

    Did some of the NZ public go too far? yes. Was the extensive post game whinging about the ref from the All Blacks a bad look? ye... wait, that never happened. That's cool Steve, you go ahead and make shit up, fill your boots you shreeky queen.

    The simple fact Wayne, is you had a poor game, with one glaring error compounded by several smaller ones. You are not the reason we lost, however you are one of the reasons. The players had to cop criticism for their errors that day, and so should you.

    Worst world cup ever.



  • That world cup was the catylyst for something pretty special though.



  • @Hooroo yeah sure was, led to a big change in culture and attitude within the ABs and has led to our most dominant period in our history. So looking back, if someone said if we lose this one we'll go on to pretty much annihilate everything in our path for the next 9 years then I'd say OK.

    That article is the definition of click bait, and highlights everything that is so wrong with our media today.



  • @Hooroo yea but as a tournament it was rubbish. We fucked up big time; the Poms got smacked in the first round, were generally rubbish, but made the final; the Aussies sucked; the Frogs sucked (except for one afternoon those sneaky fuckers); the Argies were a dreadfully limited team but somehow came 3rd; the Irish golden generation fucked it up royally. Leaving a South African side full of great players, playing solid but not great rugby as winners (and well done them for it, I'm not knocking them for what they did). But the rugby on display was poor.

    There was little atmosphere in France, which by the final was full of bemused Frenchmen, numb looking kiwi tour groups, and pissed poms on the wind-up.

    Shit tournament.



  • NZ fans can be proud of the way the coaches and senior players reacted to that day, and what they did subsequently.

    In distant hindsight, it was a good thing. Has produced an amazing culture in the team.

    Fans, as a collective, definitely can be embarrassed by their own over reactions though I suppose, myself included. I was never bothered that about the forward pass, that can happen. It was the passive refereeing of a team sitting on a lead that got my goat. But as we have seen in subsequent world cups - that has become quite a common theme. Tomuch wailing and gnashing of teeth by those effected. So yeah, I'm over it now, agree it wasn't cool.

    [quote] Barnes may have missed a forward pass by a Frenchman in the move leading to a try. Otherwise, he refereed perfectly adequately," Jones wrote. [/quote]
    That part is pure trolling by the walrus, well done, you might break your long drought and get some bites with that sort of quality.



  • Fuck that is a solid troll. Stuff/Herald live for trolling of that quality. Watch the advertising revenue soar as everyone goes in to react.



  • O'Brien's unwillingness to admit serious errors in the aftermath was topped only by his antagonistic comments the week following the loss.

    Barnes' unwillingness to admit his poor performance at the time is understandable and would have set a poor precedent. In time the more he talks about it without admitting he was woeful and out of his depth he further embarrasses himself.

    His poor performance is not an subjective assessment, 70% possession for 60 minutes with dominant territory with ZERO penalties is objectively impossible.

    The forward pass and McAllister yellow unfortunately provide Barnes et al to paint it as one borderline call and a bunch of whingers.

    McCaw, Henry and everyone from the NZ set up have taken way too much crap for that result and it's about time Barnes took his fair share too.



  • @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    McCaw, Henry and everyone from the NZ set up have taken way too much crap for that result and it's about time Barnes took his fair share too.

    Holy shit this is incredible. Today on TSF: "It's about time Barnes took some of the blame for the 2007 QF".

    Brilliant.



  • I'm not going to waste my time reading the article.

    What I did want to say is that I saw O'Brien talking to some IRB suits outside Stade de France before the France-England SF and was sorely tempted to say something to him, or at least make a comment in earshot of him (say perhaps, now we know what Fiji felt like in 1999 😃 ). In the end I thought better of it and just walked past.



  • @barbarian said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    McCaw, Henry and everyone from the NZ set up have taken way too much crap for that result and it's about time Barnes took his fair share too.

    Holy shit this is incredible. Today on TSF: "It's about time Barnes took some of the blame for the 2007 QF".

    Brilliant.

    You're kidding right, or trolling.

    Jones is trolling bigtime, and we just can't resist taking the bait. Barnes swallowed his whistle in that game, and we didn't know how to cope with it. We've seen it happen in big games since: Bryce Lawrence in 2011 is the obvious example.

    As someone said above: Barnes ain't the reason we lost, but it sure as hell was one of the reasons.

    If you go back to the laws at the time, it was a goddamn penalty fest. Pocock would have had a field day under those interpretations - and he single handedly won against SA 4 years later. SA won the thing with a few driving mauls and a good kicker. To have the weight of possession and territory that the ABs got and not win penalties, under the laws as they were was just short of insane. Fuck it, it was insane. As I've said before, we wouldn't have got a penalty if one of the Frenchies pulled out a gun and shot someone. What we didn't do was cope with that - fair enough, that's on us. But by fuck Barnes was a contributor.

    The post-match mewling was pretty bad. What really cheesed me was the focus on the forward pass by media, when it's the other 79 minutes that actually did the damage.

    In the long run though, that's what has set up AB rugby. Play that game again, and I don't think you'd see the same mental weakness. So really,maybe we should be sending Wayne-O a box of beers to say thanks mate.



  • @barbarian said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    McCaw, Henry and everyone from the NZ set up have taken way too much crap for that result and it's about time Barnes took his fair share too.

    Holy shit this is incredible. Today on TSF: "It's about time Barnes took some of the blame for the 2007 QF".

    Brilliant.

    And you haven't even made it to the US election thread yet! 🙂



  • Just a quick thought.

    Given the All Black team and management made no public comment about the game until some 9 months later (when Ali Williams questioned the penalty count after Ted was reappointed). And Barnes wasn't in NZ listening to Radio Sport or reading the Herald or Dom Post it must have been the fair objective caring British media that caused Barnesy and his family such angst. How is that even possible?

    I forgive the forward pass. Not the non awarding of the second half penalties.



  • @barbarian said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    McCaw, Henry and everyone from the NZ set up have taken way too much crap for that result and it's about time Barnes took his fair share too.

    Holy shit this is incredible. Today on TSF: "It's about time Barnes took some of the blame for the 2007 QF".

    Brilliant.

    Well it is. He hasn't yet as far as I can see. Happy to be proven wrong.



  • Oh totally. Barnes got off scott free from that game, hey. I didn't even know he was the one who refereed it until I read the article.

    So now, in 2016, a mere 9 years later, it's the perfect time to right this hideous wrong. For too long Kiwis have remained silent when it came to this past trauma, but no longer! Take to the streets, my Trans-Tasman brethren! Now is the time for retribution!



  • @barbarian said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    Oh totally. Barnes got off scott free from that game, hey. I didn't even know he was the one who refereed it until I read the article.

    So now, in 2016, a mere 9 years later, it's the perfect time to right this hideous wrong. For too long Kiwis have remained silent when it came to this past trauma, but no longer! Take to the streets, my Trans-Tasman brethren! Now is the time for retribution!

    Finally an Aussie that actually gets it.



  • So Walrus face on a wind-up. Gee that's a surprise.

    I'm thrilled with how that pack of arrogant fluffybunnies as Kafe puts it, conducted themselves in the aftermath. I was happy to see how New Zealanders largely stood around the team too.

    I will note that it appears Barnes, after all the torment his family has gone through, hasn't learnt what constitutes a forward pass in the decade since.



  • > Oh totally. Barnes got off scott free from that game, hey. I didn't even know he was the one who refereed it until I read the article.
    > 
    > So now, in 2016, a mere 9 years later, it's the perfect time to right this hideous wrong. For too long Kiwis have remained silent when it came to this past trauma, but no longer! Take to the streets, my Trans-Tasman brethren! Now is the time for retribution!~~~
    
    This really is my favourite post of the month!


  • @barbarian said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    Oh totally. Barnes got off scott free from that game, hey. I didn't even know he was the one who refereed it until I read the article.

    So now, in 2016, a mere 9 years later, it's the perfect time to right this hideous wrong. For too long Kiwis have remained silent when it came to this past trauma, but no longer! Take to the streets, my Trans-Tasman brethren! Now is the time for retribution!

    alt text



  • @nzzp said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    In the long run though, that's what has set up AB rugby. Play that game again, and I don't think you'd see the same mental weakness. So really,maybe we should be sending Wayne-O a box of beers to say thanks mate.

    I know a lot of the fern haven't watched the game back but honestly the entire second half to me was an incredibly focused and cool headed performance given the circumstances, culminating in the Rodders try. The problem was the Michalak try came less than a minute after the kick off following that. It was a massive kick in the nuts and with 7 minutes on the clock and injuries mounting that's really when the panic kicked in.

    Judged as a whole though I would consider it a better performance than the 2011 Final. Different result. So how much did we really learn?

    I think we have a tendency to trace the current success back to that loss and to be honest I think the less cited post-3N purge in 2004 of the older players and a greater focus on culture got things cooking. It was the building blocks they put in place during 05-06 that helped them whether reappointment and poor returns in 08-09 against the Boks.



  • @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    Judged as a whole though I would consider it a better performance than the 2011 Final. Different result. So how much did we really learn?

    2011 they changed the manner in which they played during the game to reduce errors. 2007 they were composed and their only failure was an inability to recognise that Barnes was a rabbit in the spotlight.

    2011 the pressure would have been much greater - another four years, at home, with a chance for redemption. I'm amazed at how well they coped quite frankly.

    In saying that, I certainly don't wish to diminish the good point you made about the cultural shift in the team.



  • @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    I think we have a tendency to trace the current success back to that loss and to be honest I think the less cited post-3N purge in 2004 of the older players and a greater focus on culture got things cooking. It was the building blocks they put in place during 05-06 that helped them whether reappointment and poor returns in 08-09 against the Boks.

    I agree 2004 was the year when we really started to change the culture, following the meeting Henry had with some of the senior ABs including Umaga, which he calls "the most important meeting of my career". The biggest positive from 2007 was that we retained the coaching setup which actually allowed us to take our learnings through to 2011 and 2015, which was a massive shift from previous WCs.



  • Btw.

    An article with Barnes talking about 07 would actually be quite interesting.

    But it comes with the walrus editorialising, which is just too ridiculous for words to have an unhinged, bitter, and unbalanced figure of ridicule to be sermonising on balanced behaviour when things don't go your way.

    Obviously the NZH focused equally on Barnes and Walrus, coz clicks.

    So, did Barnes say much of interest? Asks a no longer bitter, slightly abashed, understanding nz rugby fan.



  • @barbarian said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    Oh totally. Barnes got off scott free from that game, hey. I didn't even know he was the one who refereed it until I read the article.

    So now, in 2016, a mere 9 years later, it's the perfect time to right this hideous wrong. For too long Kiwis have remained silent when it came to this past trauma, but no longer! Take to the streets, my Trans-Tasman brethren! Now is the time for retribution!

    Hang on, you do know that the Walrus is writing for a Pommy paper, not a Kiwi one



  • This post is deleted!


  • @No-Quarter said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    I think we have a tendency to trace the current success back to that loss and to be honest I think the less cited post-3N purge in 2004 of the older players and a greater focus on culture got things cooking. It was the building blocks they put in place during 05-06 that helped them whether reappointment and poor returns in 08-09 against the Boks.

    I agree 2004 was the year when we really started to change the culture, following the meeting Henry had with some of the senior ABs including Umaga, which he calls "the most important meeting of my career". The biggest positive from 2007 was that we retained the coaching setup which actually allowed us to take our learnings through to 2011 and 2015, which was a massive shift from previous WCs.

    Holy shit NQ, are you actually an AB who pops on here to talk to us every now and again ? reading the above one would think you were part of the team.



  • @barbarian said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    Oh totally. Barnes got off scott free from that game, hey. I didn't even know he was the one who refereed it until I read the article.

    So now, in 2016, a mere 9 years later, it's the perfect time to right this hideous wrong. For too long Kiwis have remained silent when it came to this past trauma, but no longer! Take to the streets, my Trans-Tasman brethren! Now is the time for retribution!

    Totally missing the point.

    McCaw and Henry amongst others have discussed the game and when they have done they've had the humility to at least admit their failings that led to that result.

    Barnes continues to discuss the game and its aftermath - but never once has he admitted that was a sub par game from him. Hell I do not believe he even has had the stones to state specifically that the forward pass was missed.

    He is happy to focus on the crap he copped in the media though and what a martyr that made him. Compared to Henry, Richie and Tew it was small fry.

    In the minutes following the game I wanted a formal IRB statement, four years ago I would have settled for Barnes saying he had a poor game, at this point acknowledging he at least swallowed the whistle would go a long way.

    His woeful refereeing performances are matched only by his self awareness. His silence let's scribes say crap like "apart from the forward pass he was excellent."

    It's tough argument to make but perhaps if you can put me in touch with one of the talents on GAGR who put together those YouTube videos bemoaning every call after a Bledisloe I can commission them to create a series from that game that will make it clearer?



  • @rotated said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    @nzzp said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    In the long run though, that's what has set up AB rugby. Play that game again, and I don't think you'd see the same mental weakness. So really,maybe we should be sending Wayne-O a box of beers to say thanks mate.

    I know a lot of the fern haven't watched the game back but honestly the entire second half to me was an incredibly focused and cool headed performance given the circumstances, culminating in the Rodders try. The problem was the Michalak try came less than a minute after the kick off following that. It was a massive kick in the nuts and with 7 minutes on the clock and injuries mounting that's really when the panic kicked in.

    Judged as a whole though I would consider it a better performance than the 2011 Final. Different result. So how much did we really learn?

    I think we have a tendency to trace the current success back to that loss and to be honest I think the less cited post-3N purge in 2004 of the older players and a greater focus on culture got things cooking. It was the building blocks they put in place during 05-06 that helped them whether reappointment and poor returns in 08-09 against the Boks.

    I've watched it a few times and as soon as Leonard came on (54th minute) we started to look panicky I reckon. Leonard who had previously providing spark and speed off the bench was scattery and rushed.

    From my view he seemed to be feeling the pressure. Then Masoe who came on not too long after also had a couple of deer in the headlight moments.

    The injuries were a setback, but we had the "cattle", we had opportunities but it just wasn't our night.

    The forward pass meh.

    As for other missed infringements, only one really sticks out, but the so called rest were not really that obvious IMO.



  • Ignoring Jone's focus on 2007 so he could have a dig at NZ (yawn), the worst bit about the complete article was him sucking up to Barnes big time declaring him the world's best (no mention of Owens or Joubert at all).
    Fact is that Barnes still has a tendency to make a howler decision in almost every test match even if the rest of his game is excellent. Owens rarely makes shockers, Joubert maybe one in every 6-7 matches.
    Even with all of his experience I still find myself yelling at Barnes to get out of the way at times. His positioning can often show a lack of instinct of the game. Joubert probably has the best positioning play.
    Barnes (like Glen Jackson) has been a project ref accelerated up the ranks and now he rates well because he is 'experienced'.
    Barnes was the poster boy for trying to get younger refs into the game and Jackson the same for ex-players



  • I wish I was as gracious as the posters saying it was a good thing really as it helped us shape the current insane winning era.

    But I'm not. It still fks me off every time I think about it. We were by far the best team in 07, and it took a perfect storm of black swans to derail us, Barnes swallowing his whistle being a big part of that. We should have had a three-peat by now. Living over in the UK made it even worse. Grrr.



  • Yeah the reffing sucked , but I think the team we had a few years later may have dealt with all that and found a way to win .

    End of the day , almost every world cup there is a team that gets a raw deal with the refs in a big game , and maybe that was our turn ,

    Winning the next 2 has probably allowed me to move on , it doesnt hurt as much anymore 🙂



  • People are forgetting the 'French" factor though......

    Struggling past Fiji in 1999 only to knock the ABs out....
    Losing to Argentina in 2007 same as above....
    Losing to the ABs.....then TONGA in 2011 but giving the ABs a massive scare in losing 8-7.

    Sure they got fucken destroyed in 2015 but as an AB fan there will always be that wariness when they're up in a knock out game.



  • To be honest with all the awesome stuff that's happened since I struggle to give a fuck about that game anymore . I thought this thread was about the two fat drunk pommy rugby columnists having a public spat.



  • @jegga said in Jones Vs Barnes ...:

    To be honest with all the awesome stuff that's happened since I struggle to give a fuck about that game anymore . I thought this thread was about the two fat drunk pommy rugby columnists having a public spat.

    Now that would be interesting.



  • @barbarian you've been on TSF for too long, its unAustralian to indulge in biting sarcasm!



  • @jegga you mean those tolerant, patient, 'in the spirit of the game' well muscled manly men english rugby journalists dont you? They'd never write from the point of hypocracy would they?



  • @nostrildamus no I mean the two walking advertisements for type two diabetes , alcoholism and a complete lack of journalistic integrity.
    I'm suprised the herald and stuff haven't approached the trolls to do a weekly column yet.



  • I'm sure Barnes is just thrilled that his interview to the ST is turned by them into just another walrus troll.

    Reckon he wants to move on, he still has a career to take look after and all that



  • @jegga NZ Rugby News or whatever it was called put The Walrus in their team of writers for their monthly magazine about 10 years ago, I think he featured in 3 consecutive months before I expect the sub cancellations became too much for them.



  • @taniwharugby yeah I remember that , I used to buy it occasionally but when I saw an article from the manatee comparing super rugby crowds to 6n crowds I stopped.


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