Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown & Dublin Duel



  • NZ looking for Win Number 19 28.
    Ireland looking for win Number 1 2

    The Dublin Duel. It's the ultimate revenge match. The banker. NZ always come back. This they're the underdogs.

    Will they bark or bite?

    Thoughts, scorn, empathy, snarling invective and snappy one-liners all welcome.



  • Ireland squad of 35 named today for this match.

    Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht)
    Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) captain
    Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster)*
    Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster)
    Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)
    Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
    Tadgh Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
    Craig Gilroy (Ulster)
    Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
    Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) vice captain
    Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
    Robbie Henshaw (Leinster)
    Billy Holland (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
    Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
    Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
    Kieran Marmion (Buccaneers/Connacht)
    Luke Marshall (Ulster)
    Jack McGrath (St Marys/Leinster)
    Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)*
    Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
    Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
    Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
    Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
    Jared Payne (Ulster)
    Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)*
    Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
    John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
    Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
    CJ Stander (Munster)
    Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
    James Tracy (UCD/Leinster)*
    Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
    Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)
    Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

    • uncapped.


  • I don't think anything is a given at this stage.

    Ireland are still a good team, who will no doubt rise to the occasion, as most teams do when challenging the best.



  • @taniwharugby said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    I don't think anything is a given at this stage.

    Ireland are still a good team, who will no doubt rise to the occasion, as most teams do when challenging the best.

    Yeah Ireland concern me, they should have beaten us by now if not for a brain fart or two over the years. Playing in a neutral ground may benefit them - in NZ they're currently no chance (nobody is) and in Ireland they feel the pressure of the crowd if they get their noses ahead.



  • @Pot-Hale any interesting new fellas in the squad mate? i don't watch a whole lot of NH rugby outside of the internationals, probably a few of us on here in that boat.



  • Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)

    Why does he go to a girl's school?



  • @Tregaskis wouldn't you?

    I preferred spending time at Girls High.



  • Will be funny when they eventually release one of these alphabetical lists and Bundee Aki is at the top.



  • Best 15 quite strong, and Schmidt will have noted the success of off loading/lines close to ruck in 12 channel exploited by Argies and Oz (last game only). Will be there.



  • I'll be interested to see who Schmidt picks for the four matches in November.

    The target set by Nucifora/IRFU is to have three test quality players in every position for 2019.

    So there has to be some new caps handed out along with further development of the ones given during June against SA.

    There's six newbies nominated in the above squad. Of those, the scummies and the hooker are the most important as it's where there's least depth. Murray is first pick, but there's not much in the queue behind him. Marmion and Luke McGrath need more gametime. Rory Best won't be around for 2019, and Cronin (30) is next in line, with Richardt Strauss the same age. James Tracy at Leinster is possibly the next to step up.

    One other player of possible interest is young Joey Carbery, a second-year academy player at Leinster who has broken into the first team this season at out-half. He turns 21 at the end of the week. Carbery's dad played rep rugby in NZ until he was 21 then moved to Ireland, married and returned to Auckland a few years later. Joey was born in NZ, and the family moved back to Ireland when he was 10/11 to his mother's hometown, played GAA for a while, then lined out for Athy RFC, got a rugby scholarship to Blackrock, and was handed his first start for Leinster at the beginning of the season after a good performance in the U20s last year. He's since featured in the European Cup matches, keeping the more senior back-ups out of the running. Graham Henry, when he saw Carbery play during his month-long advisory stint with Leinster is reported to have said that Leinster didn't have any worries when Sexton hangs up his boots. And Schmidt has now put him in the training squad for Chicago match. Not a bad 21st birthday present. Good luck to him.



  • @reprobate said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    @Pot-Hale any interesting new fellas in the squad mate? i don't watch a whole lot of NH rugby outside of the internationals, probably a few of us on here in that boat.

    In addition to the newbies I outlined above, the developments in midfield are getting interesting. Whilst there's a working assumption that Aki will get called up in November 2017, the likes of Henshaw, Olding, Marshall will be pushing for a spot, along with Leinster's new 13, Gary Ringrose, who is showing well last season and this. Henshaw and Ringrose are going to be the Leinster midfield for the foreseeable future it looks like - and Schmidt does like his partnerships to be settled. There's another centre coming through at Munster, Darren Sweetnam, who is starting to catch the eye - he got called into national camp a couple of weeks ago.

    Van der Flier got his start against SA in June and he has been easily holding down first team spot in Sean O'Brien's absence. I can see him starting in one of the NZ tests in the back row - most likely at 7.

    Ultan Dillane, another Connacht player who has stepped up in June is likely to partner Toner in the second row as Iain Henderson is injured and won't be available for the first test .
    Finally, Mike Ross, has been dropped for the first time in Schmidt's time. McGrath, Furlong, Healy, Bealham and Ryan are the likely match-day props in that order.



  • @Crucial said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    Will be funny when they eventually release one of these alphabetical lists and Bundee Aki is at the top.

    Except that Connacht's winger, Niyi Adeolokun, is likely to get a chance in the squad at that point as well. I think he has a great future. My kids knew him from schooldays, and I saw him play once or twice at a young age. Great pace, great finisher.

    He's part of a back three at Connacht that are all going to get caps in the future - here's a clip of them in the PRO12 final taking Leinster apart last May.



  • I'd say we are really going to miss Brodie and Sam in the engine room. Huge loss for us, and Ireland could well be a chance.



  • I agree with nzzp. No Brodie and Sam is a big loss. Losing one is OK but both of them in a game like this is not good. As if the Irish won't be pumped up enough as it is. They showed how to push us last time we played and we still haven't really learnt how to combat it that well.



  • So do Romano and PT start?

    Balance doesnt look right with them there, but can we afford to start one of Barrett or Fifita?



  • @taniwharugby said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    So do Romano and PT start?

    Balance doesnt look right with them there, but can we afford to start one of Barrett or Fifita?

    When was the last time we toured without a lock above two.metres? Getting clean lineout ball could be an issue.



  • My guess is the locking combo v Ireland will either be Romano and PT because of their experience in the ABs, or Romano and Barrett, because they've played together regularly for the Crusaders (due to rotation of Whitelock, esp early in the season).

    Romano and PT have never started as a combo for the ABs, have they?



  • @Stargazer said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    My guess is the locking combo v Ireland will either be Romano and PT because of their experience in the ABs, or Romano and Barrett, because they've played together regularly for the Crusaders (due to rotation of Whitelock, esp early in the season).

    Romano and PT have never started as a combo for the ABs, have they?

    Romano and PT have only ever been selected in the same test once and that was earlier this year in the Wales test. And PT replaced Romano.

    I can't see them starting together.



  • @akan004 said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    @taniwharugby said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    So do Romano and PT start?

    Balance doesnt look right with them there, but can we afford to start one of Barrett or Fifita?

    When was the last time we toured without a lock above two.metres? Getting clean lineout ball could be an issue.

    Thrush and Tuipulotu against the US a few years back and they went pretty well, albeit against a tier 2 team. Good thing is I think Pat is better now than he was back then, bad thing is I don't think Romano's ever been as good in a black jersey as Thrush was in 2014.



  • Though none of them is a middle of lineout jumper, PT and Luke Romano could be associated as PT could be used as a lifter for Read or Kaino. Romano is effective at the front so I don't think that will be an issue.



  • Could Luatua be a roughie to start. Fifita would be there for insurance.

    Hansen seemed pretty bullish on Scott Barrett getting game time.

    Is Coles in doubt also?



  • @Stargazer said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    My guess is the locking combo v Ireland will either be Romano and PT because of their experience in the ABs, or Romano and Barrett, because they've played together regularly for the Crusaders (due to rotation of Whitelock, esp early in the season).

    Romano and PT have never started as a combo for the ABs, have they?

    PT is miles ahead of Romano nowadays so I'd far prefer PT and Barrett to start with Romano on the bench as cover. Not too worried about our own lineout, we have plenty of options so height is not really an issue, but I can't see us stealing much ball without Brodie and Sam who excel in that area.



  • I think there are reservations about whether both Romano and TP can go the distance of 80 minutes at a high level. Plus both play the same role it seems.



  • @ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    I think there are reservations about whether both Romano and TP can go the distance of 80 minutes at a high level. Plus both play the same role it seems.

    Could we see 3 locks in the 23 ?

    Losing these 2 could have wider ramifications than just losing our 2 best locks , could affect our impact off the bench too .



  • They'll go with the much superior Romero over Romano, and Tuipolotou to start. Barrett on the bench probably, Luatua an outside chance. Read takes so many lineouts for us these days that our own lineout will be fine - much harder to replace the motors those two giants have, in my opinion. opposition lineout ball gets tougher - could try throwing read up, or just accept we're getting less this game.

    whoever they choose, those 2 blokes are a massive loss at the same time. best in the world, both of them, and their replacements wouldn't be in the conversation.



  • @kiwiinmelb i'd be picking a straight lock on the bench, and a loosie who can cover lock. i think whoever starts they're both likely to need replacing before our loosies.



  • @reprobate said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    They'll go with the much superior Romero over Romano, and Tuipolotou to start. Barrett on the bench probably, Luatua an outside chance. Read takes so many lineouts for us these days that our own lineout will be fine - much harder to replace the motors those two giants have, in my opinion. opposition lineout ball gets tougher - could try throwing read up, or just accept we're getting less this game.

    whoever they choose, those 2 blokes are a massive loss at the same time. best in the world, both of them, and their replacements wouldn't be in the conversation.

    Good point, he's much better than Tuipulotu.



  • @Bones better i agree, but not sure if the difference is as much as Romero. i still reckon they should give reiko a run too.



  • @reprobate said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    @Bones better i agree, but not sure if the difference is as much as Romero. i still reckon they should give reiko a run too.

    Looking like a pretty handy side once you throw in Keiran Reid and Anton Leinert-Brown. Hopefully TJ Peranara is in the mix.



  • @Bones had it too easy for too long with all these smiths. i'm going back to calling him pat.

    speaking of names, how good a name is Facundo (Isa)?



  • @reprobate said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    @Bones had it too easy for too long with all these smiths. i'm going back to calling him pat.

    speaking of names, how good a name is Facundo (Isa)?

    It's pretty good, but as I noted in the Black Ferns thread, the NZ 8-9 combo of Savage-Cocksedge is a pearler.



  • @reprobate said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    They'll go with the much superior Romero over Romano, and Tuipolotou to start. Barrett on the bench probably, Luatua an outside chance. Read takes so many lineouts for us these days that our own lineout will be fine - much harder to replace the motors those two giants have, in my opinion. opposition lineout ball gets tougher - could try throwing read up, or just accept we're getting less this game.

    whoever they choose, those 2 blokes are a massive loss at the same time. best in the world, both of them, and their replacements wouldn't be in the conversation.

    I don't know, I rate PT pretty highly. Sure he may not be as good an aerial lock as the big two, but he offers a level of physicality that is only matched by Kaino in the forwards. Given a bit of game time, he could become world class very quickly.



  • @akan004 said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    @reprobate said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    They'll go with the much superior Romero over Romano, and Tuipolotou to start. Barrett on the bench probably, Luatua an outside chance. Read takes so many lineouts for us these days that our own lineout will be fine - much harder to replace the motors those two giants have, in my opinion. opposition lineout ball gets tougher - could try throwing read up, or just accept we're getting less this game.

    whoever they choose, those 2 blokes are a massive loss at the same time. best in the world, both of them, and their replacements wouldn't be in the conversation.

    I don't know, I rate PT pretty highly. Sure he may not be as good an aerial lock as the big two, but he offers a level of physicality that is only matched by Kaino in the forwards. Given a bit of game time, he could become world class very quickly.

    Think that's a bit of a misconception about PT. Not sure if he's used too much but seems to be very good in the air - he's had quite a few crucial steals for the AB's at least.



  • i like pat, but when was the last time he played 80 minutes?



  • @reprobate said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    i like pat, but when was the last time he played 80 minutes?

    Absolutely a concern.

    but ...

    Would love to see him start and get the best part of a game. But it's been a long time since he got game time. Same with Romero.

    Personally I'd go with those two plus Lewertooer on the bench.

    Ciaran Reed and Gerard Kyneaux to cover lock from the starters.

    Leave Ardy as impact loosie.



  • Toner's best lock partner, Iain Henderson is also out through injury. So it'll be either Ryan or Dillane starting alongside him, I reckon, with the other on the bench.



  • @Pot-Hale said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    Ireland squad of 35 named today for this match.

    Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht)
    Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) captain
    Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster)*
    Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster)
    Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)
    Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
    Tadgh Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
    Craig Gilroy (Ulster)
    Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
    Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) vice captain
    Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
    Robbie Henshaw (Leinster)
    Billy Holland (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
    Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
    Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
    Kieran Marmion (Buccaneers/Connacht)
    Luke Marshall (Ulster)
    Jack McGrath (St Marys/Leinster)
    Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)*
    Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
    Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
    Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
    Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
    Jared Payne (Ulster)
    Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)*
    Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
    John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
    Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
    CJ Stander (Munster)
    Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
    James Tracy (UCD/Leinster)*
    Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
    Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)
    Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

    • uncapped.

    My 2c on the Irish team.

    In the front row I think they'll probably start McGrath at LH with Healy on the reserves. Healy went through a massive form slump tied to injury, but has come back this season in good form. McGrath is probably better in the tight, Healy is better round the field. Both these props are potential Lions tourists, they are up there with the AB options.

    At hooker Best will start. But Best is past his best, and like his backup Cronin, throwing can be dodgy. In fact Cronin is very dodgy at lineout time, but has pace to burn and is a good impact sub. Neither in the same class as Coles.

    At TH, Schmidt has finally got round to ditching Mike Ross who could hold up a scrum for 20 minutes, and not much more. I think he'll probably go Furlong to start and Bealham on the bench, although Munster's Ryan has been in good scrummaging form and might start. NZ's TH's have better all-round games.

    At lock, Retallick/Whitelock was streets ahead...but they are out. They will go with Toner who is a giraffe and a reliable source of offensive lineout ball, restarts and mauling. I would have liked to see Whitelock take him on. We should avoid Toner on our own throw. I quite rate Ultan Dillane from Connacht, he has a good all-round game, but I suspect he will bench with Ryan starting. I'd be slightly nervous about our locks, I'd go with PT and Barrett, who was excellent I though early Super XVIII before fading a bit, with Romano on the bench.

    In the loosies, Heaslip will be at 8, ultra-reliable but doesn't offer a whole lot of go-forward. It'll be van der Flier or O'Brien at 7, Van der Flier has been playing pretty well for Leinster, and reminds me a bit of McCaw TBH. 6 will either be O'Mahony or Stander - IMO both these guys take way too much contact and don't pass or off-load, so while they are able to get over the gainline, the Irish attack can be easily shut down by simply tackling these two.

    At 9 they will go with Murray who is streets ahead of the other Irish options, who are fairly ordinary. I expect box-kicking and sniping runs. Needs a good game for Ireland to have a chance.

    At 10, they will go with Sexton. Much loved by Leinster fans, but a bit of a prima donna, throw the toys out of the cot sort of character. As crucial to Ireland's chances as Murray. Will probably stick Jackson on the bench, but Carberry genuinely does look very promising from what I've seen and apparently got Henry's stamp of approval.

    Midfield is interesting. A lot of the Irish want our countryman Payne at 15, but he will probably get the 13 shirt, where he is solid and reliable but unspectacular. That will probably mean Henshaw at 12, who is one of ireland's better backs, and a good shot for a Lions shirt. He is better at 13 though imo. Ringrose looks promising, but unlike NZ who just hand Liernet-Brown a shirt and say here you go, Ireland tend to be conservative and I'd be surprised to see him start.

    The back 3 is absolutely Ireland's achilles heel. Schmidt continues to choose solid journeyman who dont make mistakes, but don't really create anything either. Rob Kearney is still living on his 2009 form. There a couple of promising players from Connacht who have been overlooked. NZ should have a big advantage here.

    The locking situation is a big setback for NZ, but Ireland are playing their first game of the AIs, and I reckon our speed of game, width of game, and our bench will prove too much. Dublin could be closer.



  • I don't see any lineout issues for us on our own ball, Romano at 2 is safe, Tui or Read can easiliy will ball at 4 or 6 with Franks & Kaino lifting. Add to that all our backup loosies are lineout options - Luatua, Dixon, Squire. Its not like a few years back where our back row were all midgets who needed 2 lifters.

    It'll be the steals we miss, Whitelock is outstanding at stealing & messing up opposition ball & no one else really brings that to the party.



  • @gollum cough Read.

    It's the Whitelock/Read combo that makes NZ's defensive line out so strong. You need a 3rd option...who will be marked by Retallick...



  • @gollum said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:

    I don't see any lineout issues for us on our own ball, Romano at 2 is safe, Tui or Read can easiliy will ball at 4 or 6 with Franks & Kaino lifting. Add to that all our backup loosies are lineout options - Luatua, Dixon, Squire.

    And Ardie. How tall is he?


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