Theory about historically successful teams



  • So the ABs are a historically successful team, and have been for some time. Winning streak records, World Cups, etc.

    And now it seems they have attracted the scorn of pundits and fans around the world. We've had commentary about their nefarious tactics (eye gouging, niggle off the ball, constantly infringing), their cozy relationship with referees, issues with 'attitude' and 'entitlement' (eg shagging birds in disabled toilets), and a general longing from most fans that they will flat out lose.

    Here is my theory, and maybe it's stating the bleeding obvious... this treatment isn't so much to do with the ABs, in fact it happens to most, if not all, historically successful teams.

    Admittedly I don't have a huge number of examples to support this, but here are a few off the top of my head:

    Australian cricket team of the early 2000s - set the record for consecutive test wins, and the 'hard edge' they were lauded for early in Steve Waugh's reign became a lightning rod for criticism. They attracted a pretty solid opposition around the world for boorish tactics (esp from Hayden, McGrath, Warne, Ponting, Waugh).

    Golden State Warriors, 2014-15-16 - Went from darlings of the league to the most hated team around, even before Kevin Durant signed. Draymond Green went from a tough player to a dirty player, and people began delighting in their failures.

    Anyway, I'm at work so I'm sure there are others.

    Just a thought.



  • Man United during the SAF period



  • Interesting thread starter ...

    That Aussie cricket team of 2000 I think bears some really strong parallels to the AB team 2010-2015. Extremely rounded and balanced, best players of all time in the team and led by the most hardest mentally strong captain of them all in Steve Waugh.



  • @MajorRage biggest difference was they were all fluffybunnies 😉



  • Again, like the Eales Wallabies, any bad blood has been forgotten in place of their achievement.



  • @MajorRage I loved watching Steve's team play cricket.



  • Yeah, i loved watching Australia pound the poms and injuns



  • @MajorRage said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    Interesting thread starter ...

    That Aussie cricket team of 2000 I think bears some really strong contrasts to the AB team 2010-2015. Extremely rounded and balanced, best players of all time in the team and led by the most hardest mentally strong captain of them all in Steve Waugh.

    contrasts or parallels?

    1 team, so many great players. While i held no love for them, they were fucking awesome to watch play, just dominant.



  • @antipodean said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @MajorRage I loved watching Steve's team play cricket.

    They revolutionised test cricket into the play to win game we have now



  • @mariner4life whoops, you are right .. changed.

    I may have mentioned it here before but I fucking love Steve Waugh. Probably my favourite non NZ sporting star ever. Ruthless as fuck, winning is everything, everybody else can fuck off.



  • @MajorRage said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @mariner4life whoops, you are right .. changed.

    I may have mentioned it here before but I fucking love Steve Waugh. Probably my favourite non NZ sporting star ever. Ruthless as fuck, winning is everything, everybody else can fuck off.

    Same-ige!

    The best cricket I have ever seen live was the Ashes in 2001?!?!? in England I can't rememeber what year but Waugh did his ligaments playing a shot early in the innings or feilding and came out to back and knocked a century 'just to show that they were tougher'



  • @Hooroo another great Waugh moment was getting is ton in Sydney in 2000 off the last ball of the day. As famously called on ABC Radio between Kerry O'Keeffe and Jonathan Agnew:

    Agnew: Well, what high drama we have here. Kerry? What will he do?
    O'Keeffe: He'll go for it!
    Agnew: But he could come back tomorrow and wait for a trundler down the leg side ...
    O'Keeffe: Stuff tomorrow Aggers. Tomorrow is for silver medalists. We're Australians. Poms come back tomorrow. Australians only want the gold and we want it now. He'll go for it!

    It pretty much sums up one of the last high points in Australian cricket this century.



  • @NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @Hooroo another great Waugh moment was getting is ton in Sydney in 2000 off the last ball of the day. As famously called on ABC Radio between Kerry O'Keeffe and Jonathan Agnew:

    Agnew: Well, what high drama we have here. Kerry? What will he do?
    O'Keeffe: He'll go for it!
    Agnew: But he could come back tomorrow and wait for a trundler down the leg side ...
    O'Keeffe: Stuff tomorrow Aggers. Tomorrow is for silver medalists. We're Australians. Poms come back tomorrow. Australians only want the gold and we want it now. He'll go for it!

    It pretty much sums up one of the last high points in Australian cricket this century.

    a great moment. And those ABC guys are (were?) the absolute best to listen to.

    Steve is the fucking man, hard as nails. Heaps of great stories. Like telling Curtly to "fuck off" when he was giving him the eye, mainly because he couldn't think of anything smarter at the time.

    Or when the poms deliberately didn't sledge him because they knew it spurred him on, so he talked to himself all day. How the fuck did they end up at Michael Clarke and Steve Smith? A couple of modern day fairy men "leading" them. No wonder they've fallen in a heap.



  • And now Steve's son Austin is carving up in the national U/18 setup. You can just picture him in the backyard growing up.

    Scene - Austin (6 yrs old), taking throw-downs from Steve in the backyard:

    Austin: Dad, it's dark, I don't want to play anymore.
    Steve: You don't want to play anymore? YOU DON'T WANT TO PLAY ANYMORE? I wish I could have said that at Sabina Park in 1995, with Ambrose and Walsh tearing in trying to knock my fucking BLOCK OFF. But I didn't, because I'm an AUSTRALIAN, and we don't QUIT.
    Austin: But I've got blisters on my hands and I want to play the playstation.
    Steve: I scored a tonne in Chennai with a broken fucking LEG. And you want to give up because you've got a blister? Are you adopted or something? Was your real dad an Englishman? You make me sick.
    Steve then digs one in short, narrowly missing Austin's head. Austin begins to cry
    Lynette Waugh (from the kitchen): Steve, leave the boy alone. He's only six and you've been out there for three hours!
    Steve: At six years old I was playing 3rd Grade for Blacktown, and scoring TONS. This kid can't even face me, and I'm only bowling off 12 paces!

    With an upbringing like that he really couldn't fail.



  • @barbarian said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    And now Steve's son Austin is carving up in the national U/18 setup. You can just picture him in the backyard growing up.

    Four or five years ago at an Aussie v India test at the SCG saw this kid (presume it was this one unless the twin gene continued with kids) absolutely dominating the Milo cricket at the lunch break and all joked in 10 years he would be part of the national team set up. Nice to hear things are progressing.



  • There is some merit to the general argument - but I think it goes as far as success makes you a bigger target for derision.

    The identities of those legendary teams you listed are an amalgam of their biggest characters and best performers. So generally what you think of those three or four guys is going to be what you think of the team.

    The Waugh Aussie team I really enjoyed. McGrath was a bit of a knob and Mark Waugh seemed aloof but was bloody elegant - but the rest seemed like nice enough blokes (assuming Martyn was dropped). People forget the Boon/Border/McDermott/young Shane Warne/Taylor Aussie team were pretty universally well liked - there was a slow transition once Warnie became a bit polarising, there was bickering within the team (can't bowl/throw, Buchannan, the selectors literally trying to drop Steve Waugh multiple times). It was after Steve Waugh retired and they let the inmates run the asylum under Ponting that they became widely hated.



  • The shit the poms got when they were doing well from 2001-2003 was ott , it wasn't helped by having an embarrassment of a human being for a coach though.



  • @NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @Hooroo another great Waugh moment was getting is ton in Sydney in 2000 off the last ball of the day. As famously called on ABC Radio between Kerry O'Keeffe and Jonathan Agnew:

    Agnew: Well, what high drama we have here. Kerry? What will he do?
    O'Keeffe: He'll go for it!
    Agnew: But he could come back tomorrow and wait for a trundler down the leg side ...
    O'Keeffe: Stuff tomorrow Aggers. Tomorrow is for silver medalists. We're Australians. Poms come back tomorrow. Australians only want the gold and we want it now. He'll go for it!

    It pretty much sums up one of the last high points in Australian cricket this century.

    Think it was 2003?



  • Right you are



  • What I find interesting is how many of these offences are exaggerated in my opinion.

    The All Blacks have and always will be accused of being overly cynical. In rugby the winning team is better at pushing the envelope, so I can understand the criticism. I used to think the same about George Smith when he was winning against us. Cozy relationships with the refs go hand in hand that point.

    The cameras don't lie, and there are certainly instances of All Blacks committing foul play. I'd argue it's no worse than other teams, but that's neither here nor there.

    However, this lack of humility is manufactured as far as I'm concerned. As fans we're terribly self-righteous and thin-skinned, but I'm very proud of how the All Blacks conduct themselves. I remember Kafe's rant about the lack of humility from the ABs and he played an interview from Retallick and Cane to prove it, and I couldn't have disagreed more with his description. This Aaron Smith thing has been blown way out of proportion. He screwed up, but still: "Sports star cheats on partner. Has quickie in bathroom"... shock horror! I thought that was one of the perks of being a rugby star in NZ.

    I guess it build's on OP's point that everyone wants to bring the team at the top down to earth, either by their actual infractions, exaggeration or fabrication.

    As a New Englander now I have plenty of self-righteous indignation about deflategate too.



  • I remember when the storm were going through that 4 year blitz period, ( it later turned out they were cheating the cap but people didnt know that at the time 🙂 )

    People would come with all sorts of reasons they were wining , most of it related to underhand tactics, but very little praise that they were just good .



  • I shouldnt punish myself with this stuff,

    But was reading a Facebook post , it was about the disallowed try in the bledisloe test , and an Englishman wrote, the refs favor them , that is how they win most of their games ,

    if it was a school kid you could accept it , I looked at his profile , it was all about rugby and he was in his 40s by the look of it, people actually believe this stuff.



  • The lack of humility thing irritates the shit out of me.

    A disclaimer: personally I don't think any All Black has ever acted like a braggart or arrogant fuckface in an interview.

    But at this point in time, what the fuck are they supposed to say? Aw nah mate, number 1 in the world for seven continuous years - fluke. Back to back world cups - lucky. Bledisloe Cup for 13 years - could have gone either way. 14 Tri Nations/Rugby Championship titles - ok, I guess. 10 series wins over the Lions - not bad. 18 wins in a row against all-comers - quite good.
    At this point it seems that no matter what they say, they'll be accused of something - either lack of humility, or false modesty. If the whinging little bitches around the world actually concentrated on fitness and tactics and gameplans that maximised their strengths instead of focusing on bagging the All Blacks, they'd probablywin more often.



  • Yes, I disliked and whinged about the great Aussie cricket team of the Waugh years.

    Agonised over the 50/50s that'd turn into centuries .... While our 50/50s turned a 25 into a 36 etc before they'd generate another wicket chance anyway .....

    Also couldn't stand the great Auckland rugby team of late 80s, early 90s.



  • AB fans are far from perfect. We tend to be dismissive of other teams, we often overrate how good we are and can come across as being incredibly arrogant at times.

    As for opposition fans, they seem to think that it's perfectly ok to constantly throw accusations of the ABs cheating, being given the rub of the green from the refs and the arrogance displayed by the team etc and not expect retaliation. As other have said, these claims are almost always unfounded. But what is even more annoying is when kiwis then go in to bat for the ABs, we are accused of being bad winners etc. The old "can't you just enjoy supporting this great team instead of..." line is a favourite of a non AB supporter. So essentially it's ok for them to bash the ABs but we are not allowed to defend them.



  • I'm just going to take a bit of time out from basking in our team's success to tell all the haters to

    alt text

    suck it!!

    Respect is earned bitches! and you all suck, so you get nothing!! We cheat, we're filthy players! The refs are on our side! and we win! Eat one and live with it! #notsorrynotsorry



  • It's easy to see why supporters of lesser nations get the shits. If you look at their records against us since the start of 2000 (a rough approximation of when it became possible for nuts to froth on the internet) it makes for great reading (if you wear black of course)

    0_1477618333711_upload-e7e5196f-fb7d-45f4-b8fd-92df4d818279

    alt text



  • @mariner4life they could also get the shits because we call them things like "lesser nations" 🤔



  • @dogmeat said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @mariner4life they could also get the shits because we call them things like "lesser nations" 🤔

    And the thing where "you only beat us because we played shit, bro!" 😉



  • @NTA yeah I hate that....playing shit sucks!



  • @NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    And the thing where "you only beat us because we played shit, bro!" 😉

    Thankfully we haven't heard that one for a while now.....



  • @dogmeat said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @mariner4life they could also get the shits because we call them things like "lesser nations" 🤔

    the numbers don't lie brah



  • @NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @dogmeat said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @mariner4life they could also get the shits because we call them things like "lesser nations" 🤔

    And the thing where "you only beat us because we played shit, bro!" 😉

    Not to mention "You only got within 10 points of us coz we played shit!"



  • @Milk said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    What I find interesting is how many of these offences are exaggerated in my opinion.

    The All Blacks have and always will be accused of being overly cynical. In rugby the winning team is better at pushing the envelope, so I can understand the criticism. I used to think the same about George Smith when he was winning against us. Cozy relationships with the refs go hand in hand that point.

    The cameras don't lie, and there are certainly instances of All Blacks committing foul play. I'd argue it's no worse than other teams, but that's neither here nor there.

    However, this lack of humility is manufactured as far as I'm concerned. As fans we're terribly self-righteous and thin-skinned, but I'm very proud of how the All Blacks conduct themselves. I remember Kafe's rant about the lack of humility from the ABs and he played an interview from Retallick and Cane to prove it, and I couldn't have disagreed more with his description. This Aaron Smith thing has been blown way out of proportion. He screwed up, but still: "Sports star cheats on partner. Has quickie in bathroom"... shock horror! I thought that was one of the perks of being a rugby star in NZ.

    I guess it build's on OP's point that everyone wants to bring the team at the top down to earth, either by their actual infractions, exaggeration or fabrication.

    As a New Englander now I have plenty of self-righteous indignation about deflategate too.

    A good mate of mine (Australian, half Italian) met a Kiwi girl in London and they moved to NZ a few years back. He was pretty "typical" with regard to the abs, i.e. a dickhead. But since moving to Auckland his view has changed completely. I visited him there last year and he had nothing but praise for them. He couldn't believe that a group of guys who are worshipped in such a small country could remain so humble and grounded. He contrasted this with certain Wallabies and of course the greasy tools who play (or rather dive) for Italy in soccer.

    It was really nice of him to say that because while I totally agree that some NZ fans can be tossers, the abs themselves are generally a sound group of guys who certainly don't deserve the vitriol thrown at them by certain people.



  • The thing about the AB's is also about the internal marketing.

    Compare the percentage of school kids who have actually met an All Black to Austrlians that have met a Wallaby / Baggy Green or Poms who have met a football player and I'm sure the number would hugely different. AFL I suspect may be similar to the AB's in that regard.

    English rugby is probably quite good in that department if you only count private schools with shockingly high fees.



  • @MajorRage said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    The thing about the AB's is also about the internal marketing.

    Compare the percentage of school kids who have actually met an All Black to Austrlians that have met a Wallaby / Baggy Green

    Excellent point - you have to live in a very small part of Sydney to even clap eyes on a Wallaby down the street. They seem to get to schools rarely, though that was changing under McKenzie with the country tours etc.

    But its not the big name blokes a lot of the time. Which is not to say they don't do it:

    http://www.rugby.com.au/videos/2016/10/27/04/00/wallabies-visit-schools

    But when you're the minority sport in the nation its just less frequent. Throw in the travel that the average Super Rugby Wallaby does compared to an AFL* / NRL* player and its like sighting a unicorn.

    • Obviously there is a fairly hefty peptides / three-strikes drug policy / spouse-beating schedule to keep up. But that's just up the road, not in another whole country!


  • It's a natural thing. Any team that wins with the consistency that the All Blacks do will cop a lot of people wanting them to lose. NZ are far from alone in this, it's in every sport. The slight difference is that there are not that many major sports where one team has been so dominant, so you guys are bound to cop it more.

    I too, do not get the arrogance thing about the team, some fans for sure, but then again, that's usual. The thing that would grate for me is the repetitive unfounded accusations that seem to become entrenched - poaching, cheating influencing refs.

    And on that note I shall leave you with a quote from this thread:-
    "English rugby is probably quite good in that department if you only count private schools with shockingly high fees."



  • @akan004 said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    AB fans are far from perfect. We tend to be dismissive of other teams, we often overrate how good we are and can come across as being incredibly arrogant at times.

    As for opposition fans, they seem to think that it's perfectly ok to constantly throw accusations of the ABs cheating, being given the rub of the green from the refs and the arrogance displayed by the team etc and not expect retaliation. As other have said, these claims are almost always unfounded. But what is even more annoying is when kiwis then go in to bat for the ABs, we are accused of being bad winners etc. The old "can't you just enjoy supporting this great team instead of..." line is a favourite of a non AB supporter. So essentially it's ok for them to bash the ABs but we are not allowed to defend them.

    I think if you asked All Blacks fans 18 games ago, most of us would have expected us to lose in the next 18 games. I think you could argue our success has taken a lot of our fans by surprise. I think we do tend to lack knowledge about Northern Hemisphere rugby but then again a lot of us don't have the Rugby Channel.



  • @Catogrande Am I wrong though Catogrande? Would it be fair to say that the posh english schools have much better access to the English rugby team than your average local state school?

    Happy to take back if so - it may be an incorrect perception, which can be corrected on no problems.



  • @MajorRage The perception is really quite wrong MR, there is a lot of access to the England squad for schools and junior rugby, with many initiatives all over the country providing participation between youngsters and the squad. Schools can be a little problematic in that it is down to the staff of the school to allow or encourage any interaction. It is highly likely that in percentage terms there is a far greater element of public schools (actually these are the private schools for those who do not understand the idiosyncracies of English schooling) that will facilitate any participation, but this is not confined to rugby or even to sport in general.

    A typical illustration of this concerned a guy I met whilst out on the lash. He is a professor of forensic science and he gives freely of his time to schools. He has a few presentations of about an hour each that are very interesting, particularly to early teenagers. All sorts of criminal forensics, gory pictures and lurid stories but all with a scientific base. He offered to do one or more of these for my daughter's school. I contacted the head of science who didn't bother to reply, I then contacted the Headmaster and he promised to get a reply to me and the head of science basically said there was no room in the school calendar (this without knowing anything about the timings being offered - which were totally flexible). My daughter had talked to a load of her school mates who were really keen but no luck. I told the professor this and he said that sadly this was the reaction from the majority of state schools whereas the majority of the public schools were very supportive.

    So, it is easy to see how such a perception sticks.


Log in to reply