Theory about historically successful teams



  • So the ABs are a historically successful team, and have been for some time. Winning streak records, World Cups, etc.

    And now it seems they have attracted the scorn of pundits and fans around the world. We've had commentary about their nefarious tactics (eye gouging, niggle off the ball, constantly infringing), their cozy relationship with referees, issues with 'attitude' and 'entitlement' (eg shagging birds in disabled toilets), and a general longing from most fans that they will flat out lose.

    Here is my theory, and maybe it's stating the bleeding obvious... this treatment isn't so much to do with the ABs, in fact it happens to most, if not all, historically successful teams.

    Admittedly I don't have a huge number of examples to support this, but here are a few off the top of my head:

    Australian cricket team of the early 2000s - set the record for consecutive test wins, and the 'hard edge' they were lauded for early in Steve Waugh's reign became a lightning rod for criticism. They attracted a pretty solid opposition around the world for boorish tactics (esp from Hayden, McGrath, Warne, Ponting, Waugh).

    Golden State Warriors, 2014-15-16 - Went from darlings of the league to the most hated team around, even before Kevin Durant signed. Draymond Green went from a tough player to a dirty player, and people began delighting in their failures.

    Anyway, I'm at work so I'm sure there are others.

    Just a thought.



  • Man United during the SAF period



  • Interesting thread starter ...

    That Aussie cricket team of 2000 I think bears some really strong parallels to the AB team 2010-2015. Extremely rounded and balanced, best players of all time in the team and led by the most hardest mentally strong captain of them all in Steve Waugh.



  • @MajorRage biggest difference was they were all fluffybunnies 😉



  • Again, like the Eales Wallabies, any bad blood has been forgotten in place of their achievement.



  • @MajorRage I loved watching Steve's team play cricket.



  • Yeah, i loved watching Australia pound the poms and injuns



  • @MajorRage said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    Interesting thread starter ...

    That Aussie cricket team of 2000 I think bears some really strong contrasts to the AB team 2010-2015. Extremely rounded and balanced, best players of all time in the team and led by the most hardest mentally strong captain of them all in Steve Waugh.

    contrasts or parallels?

    1 team, so many great players. While i held no love for them, they were fucking awesome to watch play, just dominant.



  • @antipodean said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @MajorRage I loved watching Steve's team play cricket.

    They revolutionised test cricket into the play to win game we have now



  • @mariner4life whoops, you are right .. changed.

    I may have mentioned it here before but I fucking love Steve Waugh. Probably my favourite non NZ sporting star ever. Ruthless as fuck, winning is everything, everybody else can fuck off.



  • @MajorRage said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @mariner4life whoops, you are right .. changed.

    I may have mentioned it here before but I fucking love Steve Waugh. Probably my favourite non NZ sporting star ever. Ruthless as fuck, winning is everything, everybody else can fuck off.

    Same-ige!

    The best cricket I have ever seen live was the Ashes in 2001?!?!? in England I can't rememeber what year but Waugh did his ligaments playing a shot early in the innings or feilding and came out to back and knocked a century 'just to show that they were tougher'



  • @Hooroo another great Waugh moment was getting is ton in Sydney in 2000 off the last ball of the day. As famously called on ABC Radio between Kerry O'Keeffe and Jonathan Agnew:

    Agnew: Well, what high drama we have here. Kerry? What will he do?
    O'Keeffe: He'll go for it!
    Agnew: But he could come back tomorrow and wait for a trundler down the leg side ...
    O'Keeffe: Stuff tomorrow Aggers. Tomorrow is for silver medalists. We're Australians. Poms come back tomorrow. Australians only want the gold and we want it now. He'll go for it!

    It pretty much sums up one of the last high points in Australian cricket this century.



  • @NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @Hooroo another great Waugh moment was getting is ton in Sydney in 2000 off the last ball of the day. As famously called on ABC Radio between Kerry O'Keeffe and Jonathan Agnew:

    Agnew: Well, what high drama we have here. Kerry? What will he do?
    O'Keeffe: He'll go for it!
    Agnew: But he could come back tomorrow and wait for a trundler down the leg side ...
    O'Keeffe: Stuff tomorrow Aggers. Tomorrow is for silver medalists. We're Australians. Poms come back tomorrow. Australians only want the gold and we want it now. He'll go for it!

    It pretty much sums up one of the last high points in Australian cricket this century.

    a great moment. And those ABC guys are (were?) the absolute best to listen to.

    Steve is the fucking man, hard as nails. Heaps of great stories. Like telling Curtly to "fuck off" when he was giving him the eye, mainly because he couldn't think of anything smarter at the time.

    Or when the poms deliberately didn't sledge him because they knew it spurred him on, so he talked to himself all day. How the fuck did they end up at Michael Clarke and Steve Smith? A couple of modern day fairy men "leading" them. No wonder they've fallen in a heap.



  • And now Steve's son Austin is carving up in the national U/18 setup. You can just picture him in the backyard growing up.

    Scene - Austin (6 yrs old), taking throw-downs from Steve in the backyard:

    Austin: Dad, it's dark, I don't want to play anymore.
    Steve: You don't want to play anymore? YOU DON'T WANT TO PLAY ANYMORE? I wish I could have said that at Sabina Park in 1995, with Ambrose and Walsh tearing in trying to knock my fucking BLOCK OFF. But I didn't, because I'm an AUSTRALIAN, and we don't QUIT.
    Austin: But I've got blisters on my hands and I want to play the playstation.
    Steve: I scored a tonne in Chennai with a broken fucking LEG. And you want to give up because you've got a blister? Are you adopted or something? Was your real dad an Englishman? You make me sick.
    Steve then digs one in short, narrowly missing Austin's head. Austin begins to cry
    Lynette Waugh (from the kitchen): Steve, leave the boy alone. He's only six and you've been out there for three hours!
    Steve: At six years old I was playing 3rd Grade for Blacktown, and scoring TONS. This kid can't even face me, and I'm only bowling off 12 paces!

    With an upbringing like that he really couldn't fail.



  • @barbarian said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    And now Steve's son Austin is carving up in the national U/18 setup. You can just picture him in the backyard growing up.

    Four or five years ago at an Aussie v India test at the SCG saw this kid (presume it was this one unless the twin gene continued with kids) absolutely dominating the Milo cricket at the lunch break and all joked in 10 years he would be part of the national team set up. Nice to hear things are progressing.



  • There is some merit to the general argument - but I think it goes as far as success makes you a bigger target for derision.

    The identities of those legendary teams you listed are an amalgam of their biggest characters and best performers. So generally what you think of those three or four guys is going to be what you think of the team.

    The Waugh Aussie team I really enjoyed. McGrath was a bit of a knob and Mark Waugh seemed aloof but was bloody elegant - but the rest seemed like nice enough blokes (assuming Martyn was dropped). People forget the Boon/Border/McDermott/young Shane Warne/Taylor Aussie team were pretty universally well liked - there was a slow transition once Warnie became a bit polarising, there was bickering within the team (can't bowl/throw, Buchannan, the selectors literally trying to drop Steve Waugh multiple times). It was after Steve Waugh retired and they let the inmates run the asylum under Ponting that they became widely hated.



  • The shit the poms got when they were doing well from 2001-2003 was ott , it wasn't helped by having an embarrassment of a human being for a coach though.



  • @NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:

    @Hooroo another great Waugh moment was getting is ton in Sydney in 2000 off the last ball of the day. As famously called on ABC Radio between Kerry O'Keeffe and Jonathan Agnew:

    Agnew: Well, what high drama we have here. Kerry? What will he do?
    O'Keeffe: He'll go for it!
    Agnew: But he could come back tomorrow and wait for a trundler down the leg side ...
    O'Keeffe: Stuff tomorrow Aggers. Tomorrow is for silver medalists. We're Australians. Poms come back tomorrow. Australians only want the gold and we want it now. He'll go for it!

    It pretty much sums up one of the last high points in Australian cricket this century.

    Think it was 2003?



  • Right you are



  • What I find interesting is how many of these offences are exaggerated in my opinion.

    The All Blacks have and always will be accused of being overly cynical. In rugby the winning team is better at pushing the envelope, so I can understand the criticism. I used to think the same about George Smith when he was winning against us. Cozy relationships with the refs go hand in hand that point.

    The cameras don't lie, and there are certainly instances of All Blacks committing foul play. I'd argue it's no worse than other teams, but that's neither here nor there.

    However, this lack of humility is manufactured as far as I'm concerned. As fans we're terribly self-righteous and thin-skinned, but I'm very proud of how the All Blacks conduct themselves. I remember Kafe's rant about the lack of humility from the ABs and he played an interview from Retallick and Cane to prove it, and I couldn't have disagreed more with his description. This Aaron Smith thing has been blown way out of proportion. He screwed up, but still: "Sports star cheats on partner. Has quickie in bathroom"... shock horror! I thought that was one of the perks of being a rugby star in NZ.

    I guess it build's on OP's point that everyone wants to bring the team at the top down to earth, either by their actual infractions, exaggeration or fabrication.

    As a New Englander now I have plenty of self-righteous indignation about deflategate too.


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