Cycling/ Cheating etc



  • Re: Le Tour

    Anyone else been following the hearings in the UK regarding Team Sky and the 'package' delivered to Wiggins?

    Sky looking more and more dodgy as every day of getting nowhere continues. Everytime there is a scheduled hearing someone key either calls in sick or has a complete memory loss.

    As one journalist I read this morning said, the longer it goes on the more it sounds like 'the dog ate my homework'

    Sky are now claiming that their team doctor didn't record everything, didn't share or save his records with any central team repository and had his laptop stolen, but 'we will do better in the future'

    regarding the delivered 'jiffy bag' it seems that every minor detail of the delivery, the who travelled where and when, the timings, the people involved and even the exact description of the bag can be recalled at great detail but no one knows what was in the bag or why the contents had to be rushed to Wiggins on the eve of the Criterium.

    Not doing themselves any favours in the credibility stakes.



  • I really liked Wiggins and was a great fan of his achievements. If this proves to be as bad as it is beginning to look I shall be really pissed off.



  • Givem cycling and it's recent history this is going to stain no matter what.

    How can the sport ever recover? Every year at the TdF (most people's entire cycling intake) we see Team Sky dominating the entire field the entire race. Just like US Postal used to. People mutter but are assured "those days" are behind us.

    And now this (and motor powered bikes) how can anyone accept the sport as a real competition?



  • Having read about this extensively, they are all so ridiculously guilty it is a joke. Wiggins is a scumbag of the highest order. Look at how he and his lackeys treat a reporter on a public footpath outside his house yesterday:

    Folling @digger_forum on Twitter links/comments on a lot of good stuff related to doping in cycling. This telegraph summary is worth a read as well.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2017/03/02/team-sky-british-cycling-fire-missing-medical-records-latest/

    It's almost worse than Armstrong / US Postal in my opinion, as both cheated, but only team Sky adopted the hypocritical holier-than-thou attitude and made a mockery of the TUE system.





  • Even more shit coming out now..... The remainder of the team medical staff changed the password for the Team Sky log in for TUE applications as they were wary of Wiggin's doctor's applications and the use of corticosteroids.
    Wiggins only ever seemed to need them around 4 days before a big race and the use is described as using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut in regard to his 'pollen allergy'.
    When UKAD were investigating the 'jiffy bag' thing they also discovered a delivery of testosterone patches to the doctor which were hastily returned when someone else noted them and the supplier was forced to declare an 'ordering error'
    Sounding more and more like this one doctor is the bad egg and it's going to be difficult to prove collusion with him from Wiggins and Brailsford



  • One doctor perhaps (out of four employed by Team Sky), but for how many other riders? Circumstantial it may be, but the case against Wiggins and Brailsford is overwhelming now IMO so the question is who else will get dragged into it. If there are clean riders in the set up I'd expect them to start protecting their own reputations. Need to keep in mind though that the "one bad apple" story would also be mightily convenient for a lot of people.

    It looks like the press are starting to get their teeth into this now. It'll be interesting to see if they look into the Doctor's previous job at Bolton Wanderers too - where he worked under Sam Allardyce - and was "responsible for all pharmaceutical and supplement provision to players" per his own CV (http://www.drrichardfreeman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CV2015.pdf).



  • Can you be stripped of a knighthood?



  • @Kirwan There is precedent.


  • Banned

    @Kirwan said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    Can you be stripped of a knighthood?

    You certainly can. Happened to a corrupt police commissioner here in Qld.



  • @TeWaio I don't think that video proves anything. They are saying it's a private estate (which it may well be), in which case they are well within their powers to tell them to f off.

    This doesn't look good for Wiggins though, granted.



  • @MajorRage said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    @TeWaio I don't think that video proves anything. They are saying it's a private estate (which it may well be), in which case they are well within their powers to tell them to f off.

    This doesn't look good for Wiggins though, granted.

    It's a private estate that has a public right of way (footpath) running through it, as the reporter says at the end. Which means any member of the public can go down there, stop, film, have a picnic, etc. I have one running across my land in the UK.

    Wiggins saying he'll "call the police" is moronic.



  • @TeWaio

    Those reporters who think they have the god given right to make people talk on camera are moronic I reckon.

    It's cheap and cowardly hounding someone with a camera (and the subsequent editing that takes place)

    Fuck off TV piston wristed gibbons

    BUT TW, not disagreeing with your assertion that Wiggins doesn't come out of this whole doping thing looking decidedly dodgy

    I just hate TV badgering, and commercial TV in general



  • "Brailsford is like a child who claims the dog has eaten his homework and can't even prove he has a dog."

    Gold.

    Eamonn Sweeney: The devil is in the lack of detail



  • Yeah, that clip is pretty tabloid stuff. You are never going to get serious answers and I doubt the 'journalist' would even have serious informed questions lined up. It is a tactic designed solely to make someone look bad.
    On the other hand I'm sure there is a good counter tactic for someone in this position. Be prepared for when it happens with a clear statement that makes you look in control but not arrogant. As soon as you start to look defensive the sharks will circle.

    It's hard to say if Wiggins was in on the plan or just going along with a loophole use advised by the team doctor. On the other hand he maintains it was to provide him a level playing field (think we've heard that one before somewhere? Armstrong?) but would have felt himself the physical benefits of kenalog.

    I had a read up about triamcinolone and it looks like a rule bender's dream. You can use it legitimately as a preventative treatment for many things and could even get a prescription for it for athletes foot. As long as you apply for a TUE (and get it granted) you are 'legit' even though the beneficial side effects can last 3 weeks and those side effects can also be increased with the use of allowed drugs such as anti-biotics. Should you try and push the rules and use it in training (where you don't need a TUE) you can take other legit medicines that clear it from your system quite quickly.
    You could get dosed on kenalog to train hard up to 4 days out from a competition start and effectively then remove it from your system.
    It looks like the misuse of kenalog under TUEs has been going on for a long time and while is isn't breaking the rules if you follow the loopholes, the point is that Sky have endlessly claimed to be 'ethically' as well as legally clean. Wiggins himself has denied having any 'needles'.





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  • So, looks like Froome has some trouble... 100% over the accepted dosage for salbutamol (asthma drug)....

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/42350159

    The last guy caught for this was apparently banned for 9 months.



  • It sounds like there are some pretty solid procedures to follow here, to try and replicate the result under similar circumstances and cover questions of dehydration etc.
    the big hurdle will be explaining why, if he followed the same medication process on other days it was only this one that had a problem.
    Could well have been an “innocent “ mistake but if it broke the rules it broke the rules.



  • Sky may have forgotten to factor in how much was left in the bag



  • If you are wondering how high Froome's levels were



  • @crucial

    My take is that Froome and Wiggins attempt to stick within the letter of the law.

    They will use every possible trick within that letter, including pretending to be asthmatic and have hay fever. They will push every angle, and take anything not formally prohibited.

    I think all "therapeutic use exemptions" need to be fully publicised, to try to cut down on this legalised cheating.



  • @stockcar86 So if I'm reading that right, that would be theoretically using up a 200 dose Ventolin inhaler roughly once a week to get to that level of Salbutamol?

    ... and if I'm in the right ballpark... sheesh!



  • What annoys me is Froome continually states 'I haven't broken any rules' which is something that hasn't been decided yet.
    The rules are not how often you can use your inhaler they are 'how much of the drug are you carrying in you'.
    Tests have shown that he had too much onboard his body so, if the tests are correct, he has broken the rule.
    All that remains is the explanation of why this is which could mitigate the issue.

    I tend to agree that this is Sky pushing the limits and getting caught out. WADA rules basically say that if you have a condition that requires taking this drug you can do so up to a point but if you need to take more than that, then sorry, you will need to withdraw on health reasons as you will otherwise be mixing with cheats.
    I was prescribed this drug once myself as a got a particularly bad reaction after stacking hay in a barn and inhaling a lot of hay dust. For a while whenever I got hayfever I needed to take a puff or two to free up my breathing. Now, it may be because I was not a regular user but to me it always felt like having the effects of a massive caffeine hit. It gave you a great short term rush. (Just the type of feeling that I imagine would help chasing down a breakaway on a hill climb)



  • Quite an interesting article here
    https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/paul-kimmage-the-greatest-ever-or-just-another-drug-cheat-after-all-the-bullshit-why-should-we-care-36414204.html

    An excerpt

    *"Given the list and nature of his ailments, it is no surprise that supplements are his friend: protein drinks and fish oils, beetroot juice and energizer greens. He has used Tramadol but only for back pain, an anti-histamine called Loratadine for an allergy to sun creams; Fluticasone, a preventative spray for asthma, and Ventolin (Salbutamol) when he's racing and about to make an effort.

    "Is that not using the inhaler to boost your performance?" I asked him once.

    "I eat breakfast before a long race," he replied. "Is that not boosting my performance? If I don't eat I won't have any energy; if I don't have my inhaler before a really big effort I'm probably not going to be able to breathe very well. I know I'm not going to breathe very well."
    "But is that (health) not the essence of competition?" I suggested.

    "Inhalers are not performance-enhancing," he said. "If any normal person who doesn't have asthma takes an inhaler, they're not going to ride any faster. Their lungs are not going to open any larger than they were before. But someone who does have asthma, the airways are going to close up and that inhaler just helps them to close less. It just helps me to be more normal and I definitely don't see that as an unfair advantage."

    But that depends, obviously, on how much is used."*



  • @crucial He's clearly doping. I said it from the beginning. The ludicrous argument that Team Sky wouldn't for blah fucking blah - the same shit US Postal tried. Sign number one: Nobody comes out of nowhere in a short time to become a world beater.



  • @chester-draws said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    I think all "therapeutic use exemptions" need to be fully publicised, to try to cut down on this legalised cheating.

    World Rugby has a pretty liberal TUE policy, most sports do until they get the public eye is on them.



  • @crucial it's salbutamol right? Ventolin?

    I'm asthmatic and can't say I've ever felt like it's a caffeine hit at all. I used to accidentally take too much when younger too and it puts you completely out of kilter and dizzy, can't say it'd help my cycling! That's inhaling it though.



  • @bones said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    @crucial it's salbutamol right? Ventolin?

    I'm asthmatic and can't say I've ever felt like it's a caffeine hit at all. I used to accidentally take too much when younger too and it puts you completely out of kilter and dizzy, can't say it'd help my cycling! That's inhaling it though.

    I'm only going by my experience, I guess it affects different people slightly differently. If the side effects Froome has help him then no doubt Sky would use it as an advantage.

    "Common side effects include shakiness, headache, fast heart rate, dizziness, and feeling anxious."

    You get a bit of shakiness, I get a bit of fast heart rate. What does Froome get?

    I have no idea what benefit he may actually get but there is a good chance that if it was detrimental his usage would be minimal. The fact that they are happy to boost his intake to high levels points to it being beneficial to him.

    He claims it only ever brings him back to a level playing field.

    There is a study here on use by non-asthmatic athletes http://thorax.bmj.com/content/56/9/675 but they don't seem to administer in the range that Froome was.



  • I have a very simplified view on TUE's.

    They are bullshit and competitors shouldn't be allowed to compete on them.

    If you are sick, and require medication, then you aren't going to be fit or strong enough to win the Tour De France - so why should you then be able to take a banned substance to make yourself not sick? Being sick / getting injured is part of life / sport.

    In my world, lets just say for whatever reason you need to take a banned substance to help with health. At that point you then declare it to the governing agency, who tell you h ow long your mandatory stand-down from the sport is.



  • @majorrage so can't play premier rugby if you're asthmatic?



  • @bones dunno the rules about what is and isn't banned and why so can't comment.

    But as I said, a simple view.



  • @bones said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    @majorrage so can't play premier rugby if you're asthmatic?

    salbutamol doesn't require a TUE.

    It just means that you need to take it at 'normal' levels and not massive amounts.

    I think what @dogmeat is getting at is that if you need to take a banned substance in order to compete because of illness then you shouldn't be competing at all.

    Plenty of rugby players don't play when the have a bad cold rather than dosing up on codeine and pseodoephidrene.


  • Banned

    I'm an asthmatic and all I can say is that if you need to use up an inhaler in just one week then no farking way you'll be able to cycle up a hill let alone compete in the Tour de France.



  • @rancid-schnitzel said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    I'm an asthmatic and all I can say is that if you need to use up an inhaler in just one week then no farking way you'll be able to cycle up a hill let alone compete in the TSF.

    Need really really good drugs for that.



  • @booboo said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    @rancid-schnitzel said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    I'm an asthmatic and all I can say is that if you need to use up an inhaler in just one week then no farking way you'll be able to cycle up a hill let alone compete in the TSF.

    Need really really good drugs for that.

    Especially in the politics forum


  • Banned

    @booboo said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    @rancid-schnitzel said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    I'm an asthmatic and all I can say is that if you need to use up an inhaler in just one week then no farking way you'll be able to cycle up a hill let alone compete in the TSF.

    Need really really good drugs for that.

    Bloody autocorrect.

    Wheeze (takes 200 shots of ventolin).



  • @majorrage said in Cycling/ Cheating etc:

    I have a very simplified view on TUE's.

    They are bullshit and competitors shouldn't be allowed to compete on them.

    If you are sick, and require medication, then you aren't going to be fit or strong enough to win the Tour De France - so why should you then be able to take a banned substance to make yourself not sick? Being sick / getting injured is part of life / sport.

    In my world, lets just say for whatever reason you need to take a banned substance to help with health. At that point you then declare it to the governing agency, who tell you h ow long your mandatory stand-down from the sport is.

    Fuck me there's a lot of vitriol being spewed around this.

    Tom Fordyce balances things out here:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/42350159



  • Nah, that's bullshit Scribe.

    Exactly, exactly the same bullshit was written to exonerate Lance Amstrong.

    He's been caught. People don't want to believe he's been caught.



  • For the record there are two issues here.

    Asthma is not cured by excessive Salbutomol. So taking more doesn't improve breathing.

    But that assumes he's taking it for asthma. He wasn't. He not asthmatic. He was taking it for the other benefits, notably aggression.

    Floyd Landis took steroids in the stage he won late to win the TDF. He didn't take them to build muscle mass, since it was too late for that. He took them for aggression.

    Saying that it doesn't improve breathing is to miss the point of the other benefits.


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