French Politics


  • Banned

    Given that there is a historic opportunity to elect the country's first female president, I'm sure the feminists will be strongly behind Le Pen. Or not.



  • @Rancid-Schnitzel said in French Politics:

    Given that there is a historic opportunity to elect the country's first female president, I'm sure the feminists will be strongly behind Le Pen. Or not.

    I think she'd be fine from a feminist point of view wouldn't she? And a lot do genuinely sem to be backing her.

    Its only in the states being hard right means you also hate women. Her father thought women were for breeding & cooking but shes "normal". Theres no banning abortion, pulling all funding for smear tests ec that the right in the US runs on.

    Same deal with Theresa May, you can run right & not try take away basic female rights, in the US they just choose not to.



  • @gollum said in French Politics:

    Its only in the states being hard right means you also hate women.

    Well that is some grade 'A' bullshit straight from the far left wing activist handbook.



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  • @Rancid-Schnitzel I didn't realise you'd been banned RS. Chapeau!


  • Banned

    @Catogrande said in French Politics:

    @Rancid-Schnitzel I didn't realise you'd been banned RS. Chapeau!

    You must have been offline those days. When you get banned you get a rather large red "banned" banner beside every one of your posts.

    All I can say is don't mess with this mod. I won't reveal his name only that he likes KFC and horses 🙂



  • @Rancid-Schnitzel said in French Politics:

    @Catogrande said in French Politics:

    @Rancid-Schnitzel I didn't realise you'd been banned RS. Chapeau!

    You must have been offline those days. When you get banned you get a rather large red "banned" banner beside every one of your posts.

    All I can say is don't mess with this mod. I won't reveal his name only that he likes KFC and horses 🙂

    to be fair, isn't that like, everyone?





  • Le Pen has been caught plagiarizing a speech from Fillion. She is saying it was an homage to his remarks.

    http://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2017/video/2017/05/02/en-images-marine-le-pen-copie-un-discours-de-francois-fillon_5120898_4854003.html

    Oh and the guy who stepped up to take her spot as head of the FN lasted 3 days before having to step down to defend some mild holocaust denial from 2000.

    Also the EU is now clipping her Salary saying she has 5 million to pay back that was used illegally.

    Debate tomorrow night. The Russians are running out of time to get anything on Macron. Not that they are not trying apparently. Here in Paris I am constantly been giving flyers for Macron, but nothing for Le Pen. Not sure if its because of where I work and live or if she has given up on the western suburbs.

    Polls holding firm with Macron showing a 20% lead.



  • @mooshld As someone in France can you give us some insight into these candidates? Not speaking French and not trusting many of the articles I read makes things a little complicated to understand. Is Le Pen really an overt racist or is she really more of a Trump like figure? I understand Macron is pretty centrist but that he is trying to court the leftist vote. Is there any chance the polls could be wrong and we could have a surprise Le Pen victory or are French people generally outright happy to say they support Le Pen in public? Those protests today looked horrendous, setting police on fire the new strategy to fight fascism, will be sad to see that catch on around the world.



  • @Rembrandt
    Well its complicated. First lets get this out there. Neither of them are working class. Le Pen is born into a political dynasty. While Macron had doctors for parents.

    Le Pen is in my view not really a Trump like figure, she is a lawyer that spent her career working for her Father as head of the FN. I think its safe to say there is not much debate about the fact her father is a anti-semite and a racist. But this is the internet so I am sure someone will be along soon to dispute that. A few years back she ousted him from the party in an attempt to distance the party from the personality. They allegedly don't speak much since all that. I think the media paint her like Trump due to some of the shared policy ideas, but personality and background wise they could not be more different. People will say they support Le Pen but usually caveat it with they want a change from the normal big parties.

    Marcon, frames himself as ni droit, ni gauche (Neither left or right) His past kind of reflects this he worked for the Rothschild investment bank. Allegedly did very well then chucked it all in to become an adviser to the socialist government. He worked in the ministry of Finance and hated how inefficient it all was. So started his own movement. It has only been around for 1 year. At the start it was just a website with not much information. Just before the first round they released a manifesto. It has some things to appeal to both sides but is pretty light on detail. He is a bit like Trump in that he has never held any elected office. I'm not really sure if he is a centrist he hates that title apparently, or generally does not care about the political spectrum as he claims and just wants to take the best ideas and try and make them work.

    The protests here in Paris were not really about the election, they were may day protests, we have them every year. All the big unions here, and some are massive. Have huge marches in Paris for labour day and normally some rebel rouses use it as cover to start some shit.

    Its been an interesting few days here Le Pen is all about this outsider image and she has probably taken it a bit too far. While Macron probably needs to be seen as more of an outsider.

    An example was Macron went to Amiens where Whirlpool are due to mothball a factory. They already have the replacement online in Poland so its a done deal. Macron went and met with the owners and the union to try and figure out a way they could reuse the factory or protect some of the jobs. Le Pen showed up as well and had an impromptu rally in the car park with the workers, promising to force them to keep the factory open. Then tried to enter the factory only to be turned away. It all looked very dramatic but the truth is she never told them she was even coming so had no meetings booked. The owners were on the news saying they would have been happy to speak to her if she would just call to plan a time.

    Can she win? Umm if the polls are wrong they have to be wrong by 20% I am not a polling expert but the ones on TV say her best chance would be absenteeism. and a lot of it.



  • @mooshld said in French Politics:

    Polls holding firm with Macron showing a 20% lead.

    Polls, schmolls.

    A cynic might say "it's not even close" ...



  • @booboo said in French Politics:

    @mooshld said in French Politics:

    Polls holding firm with Macron showing a 20% lead.

    Polls, schmolls.

    A cynic might say "it's not even close" ...

    They were out by half a % in the run off vote.

    Biggest polling error in the US election was around 9% in one state, on average the error was around 3-4% in states they missed. In the big states it was tighter, polls had Clinton winning Florida by 0.7% (not 7%, 0.7%), she lost by 2%. Thats pretty standard error. Nationally the polls got it about right, they had her by 2-3, she won the (meaningless) popular by 2-3

    So 20% does feel um.. unclose



  • Debate just over. Felt like a child trying to argue with their teacher to me. But that could be my bias.

    Was very fiery, great format.

    Will write more tomorrow as it's getting late here.



  • Line of the night has to be when Le Pen said that France will be led by a woman, either her or Angela Merkel.. genius



  • @mooshld said in French Politics:

    Debate just over. Felt like a child trying to argue with their teacher to me. But that could be my bias.

    Was very fiery, great format.

    Will write more tomorrow as it's getting late here.

    Let me guess,,, the candidate you dont like was the child?



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in French Politics:

    Line of the night has to be when Le Pen said that France will be led by a woman, either her or Angela Merkel.. genius

    Whether it has any validity or not, that is a great line.



  • I wrote this post once already but realised that 90% of the debate is of literally no interest to you guys on here. All you probably whan to know is what was said about Europe and what was said about terrorism, maybe the economy as well I'm not sure on that? But if I am wrong and there are other topics that were touched on that you are interested in I can try and provide a synopsis of what was said. It was pretty diverse and covered a lot of stuff some of it very low level and detailed.

    There were two very different approaches taken to the debate. Macron came to talk policy and to talk down to Le Pen.

    Le Pen came to interrogate Macron on his policies and try and paint him as part of the previous government.

    First some background, It got ugly and the moderators had no real control the whole debate. A lot of interruptions and a lot of talking over the top of each other. The format of French debates is the 2 candidates face each other at a desk with moderators there is no live audience just the cameras and the prepared questions which they both are aware of. Le Pen showed up with piles of folders and was constantly shuffling them and looking for things but only produced about two things that I can remember from them. Macron came with a notepad and a pen. Because of the format, the zingy one liners and what not that you get in the US debates, tend to fall pretty flat when you don't have an audience to reveal in you sick burn. Not to say there weren't a few good ones they just don't score you points like they would if you had someone there to actually laugh at them. Le Pens about a woman being in charge of France was funny, as was Macron thanking Le Pen on behalf of the gay community in France for all she had done for them. It did get personal though Le Pen denied she was a racist. Macron denied he was an elitist.

    Le Pen tried to paint Macron as complicit in the failings of the last government. But she didn't come well prepared to this discussion, and economics is not something you want to spar with Macron about. He repeatedly corrected her figures and had to explain to her some basic principles to her. This is when he started using his quiet big boy voice. He also started pushing her for her policies but she just went back on the attack. This continued throughout the debate. So he asked if this was an interview or a debate.

    On Europe Le Pen got herself a bit stuck she is now thinking of having 2 currencies for France. Macron tore this idea to bits. Rumor has it her party came up with this idea over the weekend and it showed as she couldn't even answer basic questions about how it would work. Macron wants to reform the EU but never got into how or what he wanted to actually do with this. Annoyingly he was never pressed on this either. Le Pen wants out of the Schengen treaty. Thinks an extra 10000 customs officers should be able to secure the border. Accused Macron of not believing they did a good job, when he said that it may be more difficult then that to secure all the French borders.

    Terrorism.
    This was interesting. Macron said something which apparently will have lost him a few points. He said that France needs to take some responsibility for the terror attacks carried out by French nationals. Le Pen was outraged by this. I'm not sure why. He also said he would dismantle any organisation that promoted hate.

    Le Pen had waited all debate for this. She hoed in with a lot of prepared rhetoric but never gave very much detail about her plans other then closing the border, and restricting immigration. She mentioned closing mosques, youth groups, sports teams or anything that was being used as a cover for radicalisation. She did mention removing the nationality of people involved in terror attacks. Macron asked her how concerned did she honestly think suicide attackers would be by their loss of French Nationality.

    If Le Pens tactic was to get under Macrons skin and try and get him to react angrily. It failed, he never took the bait. It was not a knock out for Macron though, Le Pen gave so little detail that he couldn't really attack her policies too much and he left a lot of stuff very vague himself.

    Where this matters is with the far left voters of Melanchon. He is refusing to back either candidate, (Though he has stated he would never vote for Le Pen) He had 19% of the first round. That is who they needed to try and win over last night. I had a wee look on reddit and twitter and it seems Macron may have just seemed more presidential to these people. Though I never no if you can trust when someone on the internet says they were an undecided voter, so take that with a grain of salt.

    As I said earlier Le Pen constantly interrupting and trying to be funny and trying to talk over Macron looked like a calculated tactic, for me it didn't work she came off as a petulant child. It also gave him room For Macron to shoosh her then talk down to her. As you may be aware being condescending is almost a national pastime here.

    Finally. I have tried to write this as factually as I could but as I said earlier I have a dog in the fight and have a preference. So if you want to reply just to smugly point out all the places my bias is showing you can save yourself the 1s and 0s. But if you have any real questions or are interested in my opinions I will be happy to offer them.



  • @mooshld Your bias was obvious.

    That's 7936 0's and 1 'a well spent.



  • @mooshld Thanks for the detailed recounting of the debate.



  • @mooshld Thanks mate. Very interesting. For me as a very interested outsider it seems that neither candidate has come out with too much detail at all, not just this debate. Just a load of "This can't continue" sort of vagueness. I also can't decide who I want to win as I quite like the idea of Le Pen throwing a further spanner in the EU debate which may be good for our own exit negotiations, but do I really want to see what was ostensibly such a far right party in power and do I trust them not to revert to mean? The there is Macron, what does he stand for and what are his credentials?

    As I say, very interesting and please keep up the good work in providing a Gallic view of things.



  • @mooshld cheers for that, great to have an insight and as sad as it might be these days I trust an anonymous tsf bloke's telling of this far more than any media outlet today



  • @Catogrande said in French Politics:

    @mooshld Thanks mate. Very interesting. For me as a very interested outsider it seems that neither candidate has come out with too much detail at all, not just this debate. Just a load of "This can't continue" sort of vagueness. I also can't decide who I want to win as I quite like the idea of Le Pen throwing a further spanner in the EU debate which may be good for our own exit negotiations, but do I really want to see what was ostensibly such a far right party in power and do I trust them not to revert to mean? The there is Macron, what does he stand for and what are his credentials?

    As I say, very interesting and please keep up the good work in providing a Gallic view of things.

    There were some details on some of Macrons Policy but they were things about certain taxes and what not and changes to some systems that would not be interesting to you.

    Brexit was brought up and it was interesting Le Pen thinks France pays 9 billion a year and would use that money to revamp retirement and healthcare, sound familiar? In fact the net figure is more like 4.5 billion according to Macron and the fact checkers. He also pointed out that the UK is now facing a rather large bill that even at its lowest estimate would take 10 years to recoup the savings. Assuming your economy doesn't shrink.

    She went on to call him a fear merchant. Which got them into a quite testy exchange where he accused her of being the high priestess of fear and the FN of spending decades of trying to profit of fear.



  • The big question for me is how will Macron govern without a party? I can see about zero of his serious reforms succeeding.



  • @Tim

    Yip In a way he or Le Pen would have the same problem. But on the flipside they would have no party loyalty's to adhere to.

    The National Assembly elections are later in the year. I think En Marche will have candidates in those. But who knows how well they would do.



  • @mooshld Coming from a political party system - first past the post, the French way seems odd to me. I certainly don't understand it. Not sure I ever will.



  • @Catogrande Its first past the post just for president you need a majority as well. This way you can never claim you don't have the mandate of the people I guess.

    Interestingly both are in favor of reducing the number of deputies in the parliament, Macron by 1/3 Le Pen refused to say.



  • @mooshld said in French Politics:

    @Catogrande Its first past the post just for president you need a majority as well. This way you can never claim you don't have the mandate of the people I guess.

    Interestingly both are in favor of reducing the number of deputies in the parliament, Macron by 1/3 Le Pen refused to say.

    OK I see that but how does he then dictate policy? How does he wield power? Who has to agree to allow implementation of his policies and how are those people put into that position?



  • @Catogrande Its like the US system his office can write bills as can the other members of the house. But the 2 chambers have to support them to get made into law. Thats my understanding of it anyway. I grew up like you with the british model of democracy. So all this republic stuff is new and difficult for me as well.



  • @mooshld said in French Politics:

    @Catogrande Its like the US system his office can write bills as can the other members of the house. But the 2 chambers have to support them to get made into law. Thats my understanding of it anyway. I grew up like you with the british model of democracy. So all this republic stuff is new and difficult for me as well.

    OK I get that I think. I assume that members of the two chambers are elected in separate elections and that they are usually part of a particular political party? If so then Macron or Le Pen would need to get a party or parties onside I assume?

    This could get messy.



  • @Catogrande Exactly



  • Last day of campaigning here. Media blackout going into the election on Sunday. Not much to report really. All the papers are calling the debate to Macron. Same with all the polls. Looks like she probably won't make up any ground on the basis of her performance there.

    Macron is suing several right wing websites that claim he has an off shore account in the Bahamas. A claim Le Pen repeated in the debate. If its not true some people may be getting some nasty bills in the nail. The were only asking questions defense probably won't fly with the French judiciary.



  • @mooshld said in French Politics:

    Last day of campaigning here. Media blackout going into the election on Sunday. Not much to report really. All the papers are calling the debate to Macron. Same with all the polls. Looks like she probably won't make up any ground on the basis of her performance there.

    Macron is suing several right wing websites that claim he has an off shore account in the Bahamas. A claim Le Pen repeated in the debate. If its not true some people may be getting some nasty bills in the nail. The were only asking questions defense probably won't fly with the French judiciary.

    How the media call debate is just irrelevant.They would never call a debate for LePen. Ever.
    Polling will also likely be wrong.... but prob not 20% wrong!



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback Seriously you think Minute or Le Figaro would not call it for Le Pen if they thought she even got close. I don't know how well versed you are in the French media, but I disagree with you on this point there are news papers here in France that absolutely support her.



  • @mooshld said in French Politics:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback Seriously you think Minute or Le Figaro would not call it for Le Pen if they thought she even got close. I don't know how well versed you are in the French media, but I disagree with you on this point there are news papers here in France that absolutely support her.

    Thanks for the on the ground assessment mate. How is the general mood in Paris these days? Mrs C.F. is heading up there in 6 weeks for work



  • @canefan
    General mood same as always, its spring so everyone is in a pretty good mood. Could do with a little less rain but hey its Paris, it rains.

    If she wants any recommendations on where to eat drop me a PM.



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  • The Times this morning had an article talking about how Le Pen had spoken about Macron having offshore accounts & within hours a French Pro Trump twitter user had linked to a (fake) story showing his funds which was then liked by 200 odd Russian linked twitter accounts. Luckily the French appear to not be morons -

    Mr Macron lost no time in tracing the origin of a fake contract in his name with First Caribbean bank in the Cayman Islands, which apparently prompted Marine Le Pen to suggest that he was evading taxes “in the Bahamas”.

    The French government and security services alerted Mr Macron and the other presidential candidates late last year to a Russian cyberoffensive to sway the election. “This is typical of fake news,” Mr Macron said in a radio interview yesterday. “Marine Le Pen comes up with this. She has troops behind her on the internet who take up positions. Some of these sites are linked to Russian interests . . . People talked and got organised.”

    Mr Macron’s team said that a tweet about the supposed account came from a militant pro-Trump Twitter user and was amplified via 213 French-language accounts that are used to disseminate articles from the Kremlin-run media outlets RT and Sputnik. Nicolas Vanderbiest, an expert at Louvain university in Belgium, said that the fake bank contract and calls to spread the word had come mainly from “influential accounts of Russian propaganda and international accounts that carry out pro-Trump and pro-Russian propaganda”.


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