Americas Cup



  • @canefan Definitely limits on foils / dagger boards but they apply right through I think, not just in the actual AC match. Basically 2 sets.

    In 2013 Oracle did achieve some significant gains in speed after the Kiwi boat builders got there over the lay days. Adding Ainslie would have helped as well but as they say - the fastest boat will win. let's just hope we still have the fastest boat in a weeks time.



  • @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    As someone else posted I reckon Ainslie was as big a factor if not more than any actual boat modification and the fact they worked out how to max out the handling of their boat as they went along

    Apparenlty the gyroscope foiling system also started working last time around - that made a massive difference.

    It's a huge amount to come back from though. There are also major limits to foil modification, etc that can be done. We're all nervous, but really based on the last two days you wouldn't expect anything except a rout next weekend.



  • alt text



  • @nzzp said in Americas Cup:

    @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    As someone else posted I reckon Ainslie was as big a factor if not more than any actual boat modification and the fact they worked out how to max out the handling of their boat as they went along

    Apparenlty the gyroscope foiling system also started working last time around - that made a massive difference.

    It's a huge amount to come back from though. There are also major limits to foil modification, etc that can be done. We're all nervous, but really based on the last two days you wouldn't expect anything except a rout next weekend.

    It's a funny one... it should feel a lot better, but after 8 - 1 I just want to hide behind the couch until its all over and safe to look...



  • @Donsteppa said in Americas Cup:

    @nzzp said in Americas Cup:

    @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    As someone else posted I reckon Ainslie was as big a factor if not more than any actual boat modification and the fact they worked out how to max out the handling of their boat as they went along

    Apparenlty the gyroscope foiling system also started working last time around - that made a massive difference.

    It's a huge amount to come back from though. There are also major limits to foil modification, etc that can be done. We're all nervous, but really based on the last two days you wouldn't expect anything except a rout next weekend.

    It's a funny one... it should feel a lot better, but after 8 - 1 I just want to hide behind the couch until its all over and safe to look...

    i know right? i'm sounding like a cliche machine right now with my non-kiwi friends, they are all excited for us etc but i respond with - "early days, Oracle will leave no stone unturned, just takes one mistake' - they don't understand that this is very familiar territory for us



  • Could be all wrapped up by this time next week with the parade already planned



  • @Virgil said in Americas Cup:

    Could be all wrapped up by this time next week with the parade already planned

    alt text

    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...!



  • @JayCee said in Americas Cup:

    @Donsteppa said in Americas Cup:

    @nzzp said in Americas Cup:

    @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    As someone else posted I reckon Ainslie was as big a factor if not more than any actual boat modification and the fact they worked out how to max out the handling of their boat as they went along

    Apparenlty the gyroscope foiling system also started working last time around - that made a massive difference.

    It's a huge amount to come back from though. There are also major limits to foil modification, etc that can be done. We're all nervous, but really based on the last two days you wouldn't expect anything except a rout next weekend.

    It's a funny one... it should feel a lot better, but after 8 - 1 I just want to hide behind the couch until its all over and safe to look...

    i know right? i'm sounding like a cliche machine right now with my non-kiwi friends, they are all excited for us etc but i respond with - "early days, Oracle will leave no stone unturned, just takes one mistake' - they don't understand that this is very familiar territory for us

    Tell them that we (ETNZ) are "under no illusion" that racing will get harder.
    Oracle "has been here before".



  • I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?



  • @No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:

    I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?

    Fuckers cheated.



  • saturday night and then sunday morning is going to be one hell of a ride for kiwi sporting fans



  • @nzzp said in Americas Cup:

    @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    As someone else posted I reckon Ainslie was as big a factor if not more than any actual boat modification and the fact they worked out how to max out the handling of their boat as they went along

    Apparenlty the gyroscope foiling system also started working last time around - that made a massive difference.

    It's a huge amount to come back from though. There are also major limits to foil modification, etc that can be done. We're all nervous, but really based on the last two days you wouldn't expect anything except a rout next weekend.

    How did they power that gyro again?..... Apparently everything on board these boats is powered by the grinders/cyclors. I am sure the stability when we turn is down to leg power over arm power



  • Spithill had one thing right when he said today that they must find more boat speed.

    ETNZ has put together a very innovative package - cyclors - daggerboards - foil controls all of which come with a variety of associated benefits. Cyclors definitely seem to have more in the tank than grinders. Kiwi's all sitting low in cockpits so less wind resistance - can see the course all the time rather than having to poke their heads up. More stable don't have to have someone adding their weight to the bow to give it some stability.

    What we didn't have was time racing and time in Bermuda. The LV series gave us this and it shows. We look much more polished than we did in the round robin against Oracle.

    However these boats are so freakishly fast that it looks like we hold a massive advantage A few minor improvements by Oracle and it could swing around quite easily. The counter to that is the Kiwi's seem to think they still have improvements in them.

    We have already exceeded my expectations. I thought not making the AC would be a fail but didn't expect us to ever get a series lead

    Fingers crossed



  • There will be no massive changes to the boat according to Lester



  • @dogmeat yeah the aero-dynamics and wind resistance of the cyclers and Burling sitting lower is something I have heard mentioned a few times now, at this level, even if it is only 1 or 2 % better.



  • Just like the other crews before them I noticed at one point the Oracle grinders looked poked, whereas out boys just kept keeping on



  • Haha, the recording I d'd and watched just now stopped about 10 seconds before we got over the line....the American guy making the recording must have been pissed off and stopped it. Schadenfreude 🙂

    Great sailing today, almost perfect around the course.
    Yes, last time Oracle cheated. What will they do now? Let's see in 6 days.



  • @Virgil said in Americas Cup:

    @No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:

    I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?

    Fuckers cheated.

    Thanks for clarifying the technical details... 🙂



  • BTW, only one team can score 8 in a row this time....

    poetic justice if it happens....



  • @No-Quarter said in Americas Cup:

    I'm pretty ignorant to racing but can of the experts on here explain what happened the last time around? Seemed like we had the faster boat to get to 8-1, they made a "modification" and suddenly they had a significantly faster boat. I don't think I've ever read a reasonable explanation for that?

    To elaborate on Virgil's succinct summation:

    There are actually two schools of thought

    The most common explanation here in NZ is that ETNZ were short of money so Oracle offered them some cash in return for an extra lay day, which Dalton gratefully accepted because ETNZ was seriously underfunded and no one could see any way back from 8-1.
    Oracle then put 40 boatbuilders from the Warkworth company involved in the development of ETNZ's boat on a plane to SF where they worked solidly for 72 hours to improve the Oracle boat.
    None of the above is contested by Oracle. The kiwi cheating argument is based around bribing the Warkworth crew to divulge ETNZ's IP

    The OR counter-argument is that the two boats had similar speeds but ETNZ were sailing better and that the fundamental change to get them back into the game was the replacing of Kotsciezki as tactician by Ainslie which allowed OR to improve their sailing performance and hence take out the series and that all the cheating allegations are just sour grapes.

    OR's position is actually pretty popular with neutrals mainly because unfortunately their an awful lot of Kiwi ferals out in the sailing blogosphere who have pretty shameful chips on their shoulders and who have already started with the triumphalism.

    Personally I find OR's argument a little suspicious because while I think Ainslie did make a hell of a difference pre the break in racing OR's big issue was they couldn't consistently stay up on their foils but after it they had no issues. It is possible this was all to do with Ainslie and more experience foiling but hey why the Warkworth "traitors" then.

    With hindsight I think there were two critical decisions - gifting OR the extra time to improve their boat and also covering their boat in the race that ran out of wind. If you recall we could have won the Cup but for a race in which we were minutes ahead being called off because it ran out of time. OR through in a series of tacks which we covered (which is match racing 101) however these tacks slowed the race down. What we should have done is trusted our boat speed, ignored OR and dragged for the line. All easy after the event huh.

    Whatever it does make me nervous still about what rabbits OR can pull out of the hat in the next 5 days.

    Or as Virg says - cheating fuckers



  • @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    Just like the other crews before them I noticed at one point the Oracle grinders looked poked, whereas out boys just kept keeping on

    The other point mentioned by the commentators was that the cyclors on TNZ have their hands free to do other tasks, e.g. Tuke. You have to be impressed with Joseph Sullivan's transition after the rowing debacle.



  • @dogmeat said in Americas Cup:

    Oracle then put 40 boatbuilders from the Warkworth company involved in the development of ETNZ's boat on a plane to SF where they worked solidly for 72 hours to improve the Oracle boat.

    Great post but a minor correction - the Oracle boat was built in Warkworth not ETNZ and they flew 5 traitors to San Fran. With both them and Ainslie...the rest is heartbreaking history. Although we could still say that we built the winning boat - I actually saw Larry's millions being launched in Sandspit.



  • good post dogmeat.

    My biggest fear is the fact Oracle have two boats and zero scruples.

    What's to stop them on the last day ramming our boat, ostensibly accidentally, then bringing out their other boat? Burling needs to stay clear. Sometimes he's getting a little close.



  • @Wairau isn't there provision for repair time without penalty?



  • @canefan
    I think so, but I was meaning some major damage.
    Although, surely Oracle wouldn't put crew's safety at risk....



  • @Wairau that would be crossing the line surely?



  • IIRC Oracle would have had to show their boat by now but opted against a second boat, using the Japanese boat as a defacto backup for testing



  • @Bovidae said in Americas Cup:

    @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    rowing debacle.

    Que?



  • Just watched the highlights. Burling was a boss in the starts, particularly when he rescued the start of the second race after losing power and position early. We totally outpaced OR in pure boatspeed and our crew work was superior too. It's not over yet, I'm nervous about the long break but we look good for the lead so far. As long as we continue to improve the boat and don't choke like dogs on the racecourse it's looking good. As one of the comms said, the fastest boat always wins the AC



  • How long till it's safe for me to jump on the bandwagon?

    :::


  • @jegga said in Americas Cup:

    How long till it's safe for me to jump on the bandwagon?

    :::

    Based on last time? Not till it's finished 🙂



  • The only reason that Oracle came from behind and won the cup last time was because of Ben Ainslie. Spittle just isn't good enough





  • @canefan said in Americas Cup:

    IIRC Oracle would have had to show their boat by now but opted against a second boat, using the Japanese boat as a defacto backup for testing

    Our friends from Warkworth said they hadn't built a second boat for Oracle on TV tonight.





  • I have only caught up with watching full races on the day after replays over here. I don't get the channel that has it live.

    The race that has me wary is that second one on the first day. Spitball sailed one of those legs way way better that we did and with a lesser boat speed took better lines and made up huge ground. It was like McCaw running from breakdown to breakdown, finding the best line to get there. It was only a mistake on the first gybe after turning that let us off the hook.
    I did wonder though if OR had used a huge amount of energy from their grinders in catching up and the hydraulics were requiring more and more effort to get back up until finally they ran out.



  • @Crucial That second race where Shithill made up all the time was a wind shift I think. We did better covering today, it cost us some of the lead but kept us in the same air. I think they learnt from race 2.

    The hydraulics are a bit of a mystery. An accumulator should really hold enough pressure for the boat to maneuver a few times I reckon, but I haven't read anything that explains the systems at all. Probably all top secret.



  • @Snowy said in Americas Cup:

    @Crucial That second race where Shithill made up all the time was a wind shift I think. We did better covering today, it cost us some of the lead but kept us in the same air. I think they learnt from race 2.

    The hydraulics are a bit of a mystery. An accumulator should really hold enough pressure for the boat to maneuver a few times I reckon, but I haven't read anything that explains the systems at all. Probably all top secret.

    I'm the same. From what I can guess it is all a bit like blowing up a balloon that then gets used to power stuff while the crew swaps sides or when pressure is needed to hold things in place or tweak them. If you keep using more of the air in the balloon than you can put in eventually you are going to get weaker.
    I see the kiwi guys all have data pads on their arms which I guess show them the reserve levels and how hard they need to be working to keep things topped up.
    I think the reserves aren't that big either. That time when NZ sat down before the line and let BAR catch up, they said the cyclors had to work super hard to wind up the pressure again.



  • @Crucial Yep. Balloon analogy is about right for an accumulator. I just haven't seen any details on the size of them, pressure, etc. If it was fully pressurised how many tacks / gybes could they make? How much pressure does it take to trim the wing? Raise a dagger board? You might be right that they don't hold much after that last mark rounding cock up V BAR.
    Not much tech info about the boats out there.


  • Banned

    Came across my old KZ Kiwi pin and AC1987 scrapbook yesterday and now (probably stupidly) dare to be excited about the current regatta.

    Have just been reading a bit about the past cups. What exactly happened in 1992 and was NZ in the wrong there? Seems pretty farked that they had to make changes 4 races into the final of the LV Cup. But I guess that's no surprise in this rather bizarre comp.


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