All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2



  • @Bones
    @reprobate
    @taniwharugby
    In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
    I went through this in the other thread
    When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
    Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
    The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.



  • @Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Bones
    @reprobate
    @taniwharugby
    In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
    I went through this in the other thread
    When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
    Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
    The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.

    I agree. Makes one wonder what SOB told the nice men of the judiciary panel?!



  • I think Vunipola's clearout deserved yellow, but it's an act that happens 10+ times every game now.

    'Cleaning out' used to simply be about knocking opposition players off the ball, so the halfback can have quick access. Now it seems like it's a free-for-all to smash any opposition player within 2m of the ruck, regardless of what they are doing. Barrett was clearly rolling away, and there was absolutely no need for Vunipola to clear him out at all, let alone in such reckless fashion.

    But I guarantee I could find you multiple instances of both sides committing similar clearouts in that game. I could find plenty in every test, or Super game. It's becoming a blight on the game IMO.



  • @barbarian kinda why harsher sanctions are needed to try and stamp it out.



  • @barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.



  • @Nepia Maybe not. And it's why the ref picked it up, as opposed to the others that go un-noticed. I don't think 'leading with the shoulder' is anything unique though. Many clearouts these days are simply flying shoulder charges with the smallest glimpse of an arm tackle.



  • @Nepia said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.

    ... aimed at his opponent's head.



  • I like all the judiciary decisions.

    I also think the on-field reffing was fine as well on the whole. Certainly didn't see him as inconsistent as some have been saying.

    Only times I got annoyed;

    • first lineout with Itoje standing in the middle while his team mates yelled" get it in". Not a big impact on game. Was kind of funny.
    • penalty v Retallick. But I'm ok with refs making mistakes in real time. Itoje 'won it' more than anything, ironic given how good the Lions are at pillars for the box kick.
    • the Murray try. This was the worst as their are ample replays and time. But has been missed several times on tour imo. Maybe I just hate this more than refs do?

    When I was calling for offside usually the penalty came a phase or 2 later anyway. Maybe that is where the persistent infringing gripe comes in. At the time I was happy to keep taking the 3s.

    Vunipola and O'Broen correct both on field and judiciary for me. I agree there was a 'chance' Vunipola could have got worse if a ref was really looking for it. But I'm glad he wasn't.



  • Speaking of moral low ground, has the Fern just stooped to a new low only rivalled by GAGR, with someone posting stills to "back up their point". Did I see one with arrows and captions (albeit very poorly written ones) too?

    A virtual uppercut to whoever that was



  • @ACT-Crusader if you read what I wrote, it was a piss take.



  • @taniwharugby said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @ACT-Crusader if you read what I wrote, it was a piss take.

    And I am hopeful that all the posts whinging about ref calls are also just that.... 🙂



  • @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Bones
    @reprobate
    @taniwharugby
    In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
    I went through this in the other thread
    When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
    Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
    The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.

    I agree. Makes one wonder what SOB told the nice men of the judiciary panel?!

    Nothing, his mouth was full.





  • Hmm, and then the Rugby Onslaught comes with this:

    http://rugbyonslaught.com/video-obrien-cited-yet-sam-cane-gets-away-eden-park/



  • @Stargazer said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    Hmm, and then the Rugby Onslaught comes with this:

    http://rugbyonslaught.com/video-obrien-cited-yet-sam-cane-gets-away-eden-park/

    Well, anyone whose ancestors were smart enough to look elsewhere for food during a famine...



  • 13 years since we last lost and were held tryless at the same time. Can't help but think though that 14 men or not, we still should have won from 18-9 up. Did they think they had it won at that point and eased off?



  • @JC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Bones
    @reprobate
    @taniwharugby
    In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
    I went through this in the other thread
    When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
    Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
    The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.

    I agree. Makes one wonder what SOB told the nice men of the judiciary panel?!

    Nothing, his mouth was full.

    I'm happy SOB was spared. I want no excuses when we smash them in the mouth on Saturday



  • @Stargazer said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    Hmm, and then the Rugby Onslaught comes with this:

    http://rugbyonslaught.com/video-obrien-cited-yet-sam-cane-gets-away-eden-park/

    It's a gentle push in the shoulder/face with the forearm. Nothing wrong with that.

    Ridiculous over the top reporting though. Similarly I've seen quite a few screaming about O'Brien's "thuggery". All pretty lame really.



  • @Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Bones
    @reprobate
    @taniwharugby
    In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
    I went through this in the other thread
    When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
    Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
    The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.



  • Having had the weekend to absorb the loss I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

    Firstly well done the Lions you got there in the end. Plenty of teams would not have gotten over the line but you found a way to win ugly.

    For the ABs I have to say even down to 14 I thought we would still win it. Mostly due to what I thought was tactical brilliance from Hanson. Subbing a forward was clearly something they had planned for as it happened almost immediately. It sucks for Kaino but our 7 man pack was more then competitive against the Lions 8 and that is purely down to conditioning. Every one of those blokes put in a shift and they got so close. I suspect if Cruden had passed that balls to the forwards and asked them to hold it for 5 minutes they would have.

    But thats not us we play to win not to draw, was still a shitty option.

    I can understand people are frustrated with SBW for what happened but I think people need a little perspective. He is not even close to being a serial offender wasn't his last card in 2011 that was 6 years ago. If you balance it up against the good stuff hes done I think hes still the kind of player you want around. So this talk of him never wearing Black again or people booing him needs to be put to bed. Its over no one will regret it more then him.

    Vunipola on the other hand should count himself very lucky, in my view that was a straight up targeted shot. He saw it was Barrett and he went hard in on him. It was cheap as well as Barrett was rolling out of the ruck, and there was no other defender so he had no need to even enter the ruck, the ball was available. I think if the contact was any heavier we could have been down a fly half. I would be surprised if he was selected for the 3rd test, he didn't really bend the line and his discipline sucked.

    For the SOB incident, it makes me really wonder if the way the Refs are implementing the head high rules needs some adjustment. One thing in common with a lot of the rulings that have been very inconsistent is that its not normally the tackler that is at fault, but more often the tackler assist. We see it here with Sean, with Sonny and even the Cane incident in Ireland. He was coming in as the assist but Henshaws spin caught him. I think as the assister there is a much greater risk of these sorts of accidents. For one you have a player who is in the process of being tackled that will normally be lowering there head as they move toward the ground. This puts it right in the tackle zone for anyone attempting the assist. Then you have huge amounts of force in the collision and the way that acts on the players is not easy to predict, making any assisted tackles a lot messier. The inverse is also true in a one on one tackle with two players colliding both have a good idea of where their bodies should be, to effect a safe tackle at impact.

    I really don't know how to deal with that. I would like to see slow motion replays used less as I think reducing the time gives the impression that the players have a choice in their actions and for a lot of cases in the assist I don't think they have much of one. What they committed to 2 steps away is what they have to go through with.

    I was happy with Laumape, thought he was good considering the circumstances. Reiko needed to be busier. He can't afford to run hot cold like that and needs to go looking for the ball a bit more rather then wait for it.

    One final thing all of the international French Refs are totally fluent in English, please don't give them this excuse as a crutch for a poor performance. They don't need it if they are not communicating with their team properly its not down to language skills.



  • @mooshld good summation. Cheers



  • @mooshld yeah I liked what Laumape bought to the table, although Will GReenwood who usually makes sense reckons the Lions exposed him, which is true to an extent, but I thought he acquitted himself in the match well, which TBF was the most unusual match to start your AB career off with.



  • @Catogrande thanks, as I said in the other thread, pull up the video and stop it at the right spots. The video you linked shows very clearly the way he tenses up his right hand for a chop/hit action. If he was trying to grab as in making a tackle, he would have an open palm reaching around. Then he does a half movement as a sighter, then a full hit to the jaw. Then he moves backward away from the tackle area rapidly, since all his forward momentum went into Naholo's jaw, and since he at no time tried to lower his body weight to engage the tackle.

    You say it is a gentle forearm to the jaw, I say it is a hard cold cock, on purpose. Look at the result.

    I disagree with mooshid. None of SOB's actions look like he is trying to make a tackle. You need to freeze frame it to see his actions clearly. He has a history of hitting player's heads, so giving him the benefit of the doubt and only looking at it real speed from the wrong side is insufficient. We are Kiwis, we don't BS nor whinge. Tell it like it is.

    I don't want to keep rehashing this, it's over, and he got off (miraculously). Time to move on and beat them on the field this weekend.



  • @Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Catogrande thanks, as I said in the other thread, pull up the video and stop it at the right spots. The video you linked shows very clearly the way he tenses up his right hand for a chop/hit action. If he was trying to grab as in making a tackle, he would have an open palm reaching around. Then he does a half movement as a sighter, then a full hit to the jaw. Then he moves backward away from the tackle area rapidly, since all his forward momentum went into Naholo's jaw, and since he at no time tried to lower his body weight to engage the tackle.

    You say it is a gentle forearm to the jaw, I say it is a hard cold cock, on purpose. Look at the result.

    I disagree with mooshid. None of SOB's actions look like he is trying to make a tackle. You need to freeze frame it to see his actions clearly. He has a history of hitting player's heads, so giving him the benefit of the doubt and only looking at it real speed from the wrong side is insufficient. We are Kiwis, we don't BS nor whinge. Tell it like it is.

    I don't want to keep rehashing this, it's over, and he got off (miraculously). Time to move on and beat them on the field this weekend.

    I'd love to see the reasoning of the dismissal and the defence put forward. Not because I want to pick them apart but because I am astounded how that incident was deemed not a RC under the directives.
    SBWs was deemed a RC presumably because the ref either decided there was intent or a complete lack of care. The judiciary decided reckless which upholds the RC. How on earth was SOBs not reckless?
    I have said I think it was an accident, but I also see SBWs as one as well. It was an avoidable accident though and both players did not need to make the actions they did.
    I guess we'll never know but it is certainly perplexing. Almost as perplexing as the ref team looking at it and seeing a hard forearm to the jaw and deciding it wasn't even worth an action.



  • @Wairau Well, we can certainly agree on your last sentence. Definitely time to move on.



  • @Catogrande said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    McBride

    I thought I had heard all the trivia about Willie John McBride until yesterday:
    he played more games for the Lions (70) than for Ireland (63)!

    There were a lot of provincial games on those long tours in the 60s/70s!



  • @MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    Faletau's try was top drawer.

    Having seen a step-by-step review of it today, I think it was a far, far better try than the try in the first test by O'Brien.

    The first Test try needed a bit of luck/opportunism - Read's charge was maybe worth a gamble because it might have made a fullback panic, but Williams stepped inside and there was a nice arrangement of players on both sides for the Lions to capitalise through the neat exchanges between Davies/Daly/Davies/O'Brien.
    Four players contribute to the attack. The distance makes it unexpected/dramatic/spectacular - but overall it made no difference.

    However, the Faletau try was more like a Joe Schmidt-planned try. It starts with the scrum-half in the lineout at the front and O'Brien at 9, then Murray drops back to take the tap, O'Brien keeps the focus close-in from the AB-tail, but Murray skip-passes to Sexton who gives a short pass to Farrell.
    Farrell and Davies tie in the AB midfield, Sexton loops and Daly comes in from the blindside-wing, just evading ALB and feeds Williams who puts Watson away on the right.
    Watson is tackled but Murray rolls Dagg and O'Brien has the strength to resist the combined counter-ruck of Cane and Barrett.
    Daly acts as 9 to get the ball out to Sexton and Itoje trucks it up, supported by George. Murray feeds Sexton who has inside options from Furlong and Lawes with Davies running a hard line from centre, but Sexton pulls it back deep to Farrell who has had time to size up the ABs improvised defence.
    Farrell wisely skips Warburton to get the ball to Williams in midfield and passes to Faletau who is 5m in from touch. Faletau is not in the clear and has to use his power/experience to get through the Dagg tackle. I've seen several Lions backs not score from better chances this tour.
    That's what I call a team try!

    That's all 7 backs involved and (depending on how you do the maths) the ball going through about 16 pairs of hands &/or significant contributions leading up to that try, going 40m up the pitch but 2 x 70m widths, so it is a total of about 180m of play.

    Also it happened when it was 14v14, so was not simply down to numerical difference (although the effort of the AB-14 from minutes 25-60 might have been starting to catch up on them).

    Above all - it made a difference: it got the Lions back in the game after 20 minutes of trying to throw away the series by giving away dumb penalty after dumb penalty.

    So far, by far, that for me is the try of the tour (and several other tours!).



  • @Megweya said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    @Catogrande said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    McBride

    I thought I had heard all the trivia about Willie John McBride until yesterday:
    he played more games for the Lions (70) than for Ireland (63)!

    There were a lot of provincial games on those long tours in the 60s/70s!

    Old style tours were magic



  • May have missed if already posted, but excellent analysis by the42 of how Lions defence neutralised ABs at 21 all. http://www.the42.ie/analysis-lions-defence-all-blacks-test-two-3475729-Jul2017/
    That said I think it shows, which the analysis attempts to gloss over, that Sinckler ought to have been penalised for clear offside fairly early in sequence. Kick would have been three yards in Lions half, but at very least would have given ABs field position.



  • And an attack analysis, including the 'tricks' the Lions used to part the black sea for Murray: http://www.the42.ie/analysis-sexton-farrell-lions-all-blacks-2-3474564-Jul2017/ .



  • @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    May have missed if already posted, but excellent analysis by the42 of how Lions defence neutralised ABs at 21 all. http://www.the42.ie/analysis-lions-defence-all-blacks-test-two-3475729-Jul2017/
    That said I think it shows, which the analysis attempts to gloss over, that Sinckler ought to have been penalised for clear offside fairly early in sequence. Kick would have been three yards in Lions half, but at very least would have given ABs field position.

    I don't think that is a big issue, we often see that allowed if the defender retreats back which Sinkler did.

    However, watching the other one I think it's more preposterous that Farrell was allowed to get away with holding TJ, and anyone who claims that didn't have an effect on TJs decision making is deluded.



  • @Nepia Fair enough -- was looking at still!



  • Also I think the whole 'the42' best balanced rugby journalism out there reputation took a hit with that second one. They're basically applauding the Lions for blocking defenders when this whole tour has had scuttlebutt about blocking defenders aimed at the ABs.



  • Nz had 61% possession and 58% territory this match.

    With 7 man pack for 50 odd minutes.

    Also the NZ lineout was statistically the better in this match, after a shaky first test. Tbf, I expect the nz lineout to be good but it was minus their 4th jumping option for the 50 odd minutes. 9 out of 10 (90%) on own through, so the missed one was the not straight when Taylor got flustered waiting for Garces to move Itoje out of the middle.
    Lions were 8 out of 10.

    Nz scrum was 100%.



  • Whitelock mentioned that they had to adjust their lineout when Kaino went off, as he is also used as a lifter.



  • Checking in late.....

    Warburton is an absolute class act. He knew his team had played 14 men for 50 min and only just won. He is easily one of my favourite personalties

    Lions live offside.

    Can we get a ref that actually likes the game of rugby?

    Its a can of worms repeatedly opened but Vunipola gets to stay on the field why exactly?

    I hate NZ media, specifically TVNZ for drudging up a 9yo video of a SBW shoulder charge right after he switched codes. Its inciting public anger. Ditto our tall poppy syndrome on social media. He fucked up, let it go. The guy does a hell of a lot of good away from the field so put the pitch forks away FFS!.......and he had a direct hand in two WCs! IMO he lost his ability to wrap as Naholo came in. It was either use the arm and jam it, possible break it or wrap the arm around Naholo as he should have done. We all now he took another option and it was silly.

    Ioane may be fast but his work rate at this stage of his test career is pants.

    Dagg has been outstanding over 2 games but his last man defense is and has always been arse.

    For me the AB villain of the game was Aaron Cruden. When we had a platform set, rumble up the middle taking 5m at a time from 40m out, he chose to kick across field for the Hail Mary. I appreciate everything he has done for NZ rugby, his fight back from cancer and he's a tiny man playing a giants game which I always like to see. However he went for the legacy play. He wanted the glory and a lasting impression of his time in the AB jersey and it was the wrong play. That was probably the point where I lost my shit.

    Lastly "A win for the ages" they proclaim - ok you won against 14 men, should have been 14 vs 14 if Vunipola gets the same treatment SBW does, possibly 14 vs 13 with O'Briens swinging arm(based on the current IRB rulings....) then the consistently offside Maro Itoje probably should have had a seat for 10 as well. In fairness so does Cody Taylor for the late hit of Farrell. But come on "A win for the ages" really???



  • The manner in which the win was achieved can be debated, but a first Test win in NZ for 24 years - after a 3-0 drubbing the last time they met - contextually certainly merits the the title.



  • @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    And an attack analysis, including the 'tricks' the Lions used to part the black sea for Murray: http://www.the42.ie/analysis-sexton-farrell-lions-all-blacks-2-3474564-Jul2017/ .

    looking at the video of the first try if ALB had made his tackle instead of slipping off Daly it the movement would have been shut down. I don't think ALB committed to early as they say in the analysis he just did a shit tackle.



  • @raznomore said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:

    Checking in late.....

    Warburton is an absolute class act. He knew his team had played 14 men for 50 min and only just won. He is easily one of my favourite personalties

    Yeap he came across really well in the interview and was well aware that they had only just beaten a 14 man All Black team. I also liked how Read didn't use being a player down as an excuse.

    Then you have Gatland who reckons they haven't been stretched by the All Blacks. Maybe I'm just arrogant but if the All Blacks had only just beaten a 14 man Lions, Aussie or SA team by three points in the last 10 minutes I'd want an inquiry



  • @Gary the funny thing though was the Lions had their best period during the 14 v 14 time.


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