All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3



    1. Joe Moody (27)
    2. Codie Taylor (18)
    3. Owen Franks (93)
    4. Brodie Retallick (63)
    5. Samuel Whitelock (87)
    6. Jerome Kaino (80)
    7. Sam Cane (43)
    8. Kieran Read (99) - Captain
    9. Aaron Smith (61)
    10. Beauden Barrett (52)
    11. Julian Savea (53)
    12. Ngani Laumape (1)
    13. Anton Lienert-Brown (12)
    14. Israel Dagg (64)
    15. Jordie Barrett (1)

    Reserves:
    16. Nathan Harris (7)
    17. Wyatt Crockett (61)
    18. Charlie Faumuina (49)
    19. Scott Barrett (7)
    20. Ardie Savea (15)
    21. TJ Perenara (32)
    22. Aaron Cruden (49)
    23. Malakai Fekitoa (23)


    Lions

    1. Mako Vunipola
    2. Jamie George
    3. Tadhg Furlong
    4. Maro Itoje
    5. Alun Wyn Jones
    6. Sam Warburton (captain)
    7. Sean O'Brien
    8. Taulupe Faletau
    9. Conor Murray
    10. Johnny Sexton
    11. Elliot Daly
    12. Owen Farrell
    13. Jonathan Davies
    14. Anthony Watson
    15. Liam Williams.

    Resserves:
    16. Ken Owens
    17. Jack McGrath
    18. Kyle Sinckler
    19. Courtney Lawes
    20. CJ Stander
    21. Rhys Webb
    22. Ben Te'o
    23. Jack Nowell


    (booboos original post follows)


    Flush the dunny.

    ABs will be forced into more changes in the backs anyway.

    Forwards should stay the same. And forwards bench unlikely to change.

    Backs well ...

    We'll be without Bender and SBW, probably Naholo and maybe Crotty still.

    If Crotty is close to better they'll bring him in, but assuming he's not, and assuming all foyr as above are out what's your plan?

    For me, given hiw Laumape went I'm starting him at 12.

    Can Rieko play 14 (With Jules to 11)? I'm thinking of leaving him at 11 though and moving Izzy back to 14, with JB to 15.

    Would give serious consideration to JB kicking.

    Would need to find a new benchie. Does Julianuary offer enough cover from the bench? Would mean Rieko or maybe JB covering midfield.

    Next in line appears to be Goodhue. Dmac could have a claim at that given both are injury replacements. Or have I forgotten someone?

    As for the Lions I'd suggest lawes to start ... but am not really fussed about them. They'll be strong regardless.

    Once again it will be as absolute war. If it's 15 on 15 for me is a 50:50 prospect.

    It was funny watching yesterday as usually you have this feeling that the ABs just need to get some possession and they'll start to roll over the top. Just didn't get that impression yesterday. Although that may have been due to the numerical disadvantage.

    Poite is likely to be weird but less weird than Garces. Of the two am pleased that he and not the other is reffing the decider. I'd prefer just about anyone else but is the lesser of the two evils.

    We'll be interesting. Lions playing good rugby to come back into that game and deserve massive credit. I still think Warren G is a massive dick and hope he loses.

    And hope the good guys win and send the chippy Pom Islanders home with their tails between their legs.



  • @booboo series and a long record at EP on the line next week!

    Hope the weather plays ball and we get a cracker, for me last night was a bit of a let down after someone saw red and made it nigh on impossible.



  • A bit of grunt and experience likely to be missing from the midfield. Do they bring Fekitoa back?



  • Another option is Julian Savea at 11 (with Dagg at 14 and Jordie at 15) and name Rieko on the bench to cover wing and midfield (starting Laumape-ALB). IMO, with so many rookies, there's something to say for Jules' experience and starting him. But I am really, really hoping Crotty will be okay for test 3.



  • It's a bit like this series is starting again with history having less relevance now.

    The old "you're only as good as your last game" mantra evens the odds up massively.

    So difficult to appraise and analyse the AB performance with that huge 25 minute elephant standing in the corner. But for the first 25 minutes we didn't play well either, as Read was quick to point out

    This game has got a 50/50 feel to it now (emotion can be more fun than logic) and it'll be a week of genuine anticipation which is a grand thing. I often tell AFL supporters that All Black games and their lead up are like grand finals every week - this one certainly is.

    Fekitoa gets a phone call? Na

    Charlie Ngatai fit?



  • @Stargazer said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    Another option is Julian Savea at 11 (with Dagg at 14 and Jordie at 15) and name Rieko on the bench to cover wing and midfield (starting Laumape-ALB). IMO, with so many rookies, there's something to say for Jules' experience and starting him. But I am really, really hoping Crotty will be okay for test 3.

    I did have that as an option SG.

    And you're right. Not many caps in a Laumape-ALB-Ioane-JB option.



  • Is it Read's 100th?



  • Problem for crotty is the unpredictability of hamstring injuries, it can feel 100 percent , then bang



  • I think no matter who we choose, we have to be a bit more adventurous with our back play. The Lions have looked a lot more likely to score tries than we have.



  • Posted in the wrong thread, so brought this across.

    OK, 12 hours on, and I'm now sobering up.

    That was a great Lions effort. I think that their 8 matched (and bettered) ours for the first 25, and after that we were always only looking for parity. I think the taking off Kaino thing is a very, Cane and Reado can do a Richie and keep them out. I like the attitude that all the rest of the 8 can lift anothre 20%. They did too, but we needed 8 men doing that to match the lIons last night.

    Our defence in the last 20 went to pieces, but I can understand much of that with tired legs.

    Here's the thing, pretty much every time we attacked them with a back hitting it up 2-5 metres around the ruck, we made ground, and they either got offside or otherwise infringed. Had we made our kicks we would have won anyway, and if we had stuck with that plan and trusted it, I think we would have broken them down again. So, I'm actually pretty confident about our strategy. Right now, we have problems with execution.

    I won't rehash the SBW thing again, but I'd drop him. I think Laumape showed enough last night to be the 12 to get this strategy over the line. If Crotty is fit, then I'd start him and bring ALB off the bench (mainly because I don't know how long Crotty would last). If not, then ALB to start and Goodhue to the bench.

    I think we have to discuss the type of kicks Barrett missed last night. By the stats, it's not a terrible performance, but every other team has a kicker who would have probably gone 100% of those last night. It's been known for a while that he struggles, and last night it was a clear factor contributing to the loss. Do we address it? How? We are still poor under the high ball - they picked Joride, which should mean that he is ready. In that case, they should play him (I'm not sure he is ready, but they picked him). With him at 15, Dagg and 14, and a power wing at 11, we look much better and should be able to a) nail the catching, and b) improve goal kicking. Even if he is only there are a back up, it's worth considering. However, it's probably not a long term solution, as he doesn't look a natural 15. So, either way, we need Barrett to improve his goal kicking.

    My changes: None up front, Crotty in at 13 with ALB to the bench and Laumape starting (SBW LTFO), 50/50 on Sopoaga in (Cruden out), Jordie to 15 and kicks goals (assuming Naholo isn't playing).

    Shag really really needs to talk with the refs about off side, and Read needs to a) tell TJP to STFU and b) quietly and consistently remind the ref about the lost opportunities from Lions offsides.

    Lastly, I guess they will start SBW - assuming he doesn't get a week off. However, I hope he just focuses on being accurate. Strong and accurate, and play within the laws. That's all we've ever needed from him since Nonu left, but he just can't fucking get it done.

    @akan004 I don't think we need to be more adventurous - actually less. We seemed to lose trust in our ability o punch through them, which - with 15 on the park, we can do.



  • @booboo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @Stargazer said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    Another option is Julian Savea at 11 (with Dagg at 14 and Jordie at 15) and name Rieko on the bench to cover wing and midfield (starting Laumape-ALB). IMO, with so many rookies, there's something to say for Jules' experience and starting him. But I am really, really hoping Crotty will be okay for test 3.

    I did have that as an option SG.

    And you're right. Not many caps in a Laumape-ALB-Ioane-JB option.

    That's really the selector's fault though - they specifically said 'they're ready' so they should be. They replaced Smith with McKenzie, so even when they have the option of replacing guys with experienced people, they haven't. It's a dangerous strategy, but they should trust it. It fucks me off if they select a guy in the squad but don't pay him because he's inexperienced. In that case, don't fucking pick him for a Lions series.



  • @gt12 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    Lastly, I guess they will start SBW - assuming he doesn't get a week off. However, I hope he just focuses on being accurate. Strong and accurate, and play within the laws. That's all we've ever needed from him since Nonu left, but he just can't fucking get it done.

    To be fair, that's only his third game since Nonu left and he went alright against Samoa and in the first Lions test. 🙂



  • @Chris-B.

    Fair schmair.



  • Sean OBrien has been cited for his hit on Naholo.



  • I guess what we have learnt form the past, is the ABs tend to respond pretty well after a loss, especially as there will be alot of finger pointing and angst this week, around SBW, the decision to take Kaino off, decisions by BB & Cruden.

    Also, I saw a graphic pop up on screen last night, and worked out Lions were due a win (think it meant they have won 1/5 consistantly against us) knew I should bet on them when we were up by 6... 😉

    @kiwiinmelb interesting, not sure it warrants any sanction, but I guess consistancy is what we are after right?



  • I'm pretty surprised O'Brien has been cited for that, it was pretty innocuous. Can't see a suspension in it.



  • One of the reasons the ABs never got much continuity (and zero tries) was the ridiculous number of infringements by the Lions. It felt like every time the ABs had possession in the Lions half, then there would be a penalty. And a man down and in those conditions, you have to take your penalties. And they were all kickable yet BB missed a couple of sitters. 10 kickable penalties in all - when you see a number like that, you wonder how the Lions were never on a team warning for repeated offences - especially as the offside line seemed to disappear completely at times.





  • @Tim So, that article claims Naholo passed his head injury test, but they decided not to risk him.



  • Still mulling over my side to conquer all, but some initial changes:

    • Sopoaga in for Cruden on the bench, who played like he'd mentally already left NZ
    • Would go with Leaumape at 12 and ALB at 13 on the assumption that Crotty won't make it.
    • Back three, with Naholo fit I'd probably stick with the same, but would toy with the idea of 11. Dagg, 14. Naholo, and 15 J Barrett, or 11 Savea, 14 Naholo, 15 Dagg... for some reason it feels like some experience out there might be good, even though Ioane is probably playing better at the moment. J Barrett's defence gets questioned in the last line, but for some reason Izzy doesn't...
    • I have a vague inkling that one position needs to change in the starting tight five, but would want to sift through stats before making any changes. Possibly Moody for Crockett. Could be completely unwarranted, but I have a feeling in 2 games out of three some of the starting Crusaders tight five have been outplayed on this tour.

    Undoubtedly I'll change m mind several times before Thursday too...



  • Right, so unavailable are B Smith, SBW and Crotty is a maybe. Naholo sounds like he's Ok. No problem with options on the wings: it's a matter of who's going to make up the midfield, play fullback, and the back replacements.

    I'd certainly start Crotty is he's fit or near enough, at 12 with ALB outside him. This was the first choice midfield last year. ALB was our best back last night, and Crotty is Mr Steady.

    Picking J Barrett would have a little of the panic button about it, but still may be the correct move, with Dagg going back to the wing. A choice would need to be made between Naholo and Ioane, unless they simple choose not to risk Naholo.

    I can't recall having to select a guy for his goalkicking since the dark days of Matt Cooper in 1993 and Shane Howarth in 1994, so the whole concept makes me feel a little ill, but that aside, it might be time to give Barrett his shot anyway.

    So for mine, it's Smith, Barrett, Crotty, ALB, Ioane, Dagg and Barrett with TJP, Cruden and I'd like to see them bring Fekitoa in and onto the bench.

    Forwards stay the same. They'll be grumpy.



  • @shark said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    Right, so unavailable are B Smith, SBW and Crotty is a maybe. Naholo sounds like he's Ok. No problem with options on the wings: it's a matter of who's going to make up the midfield, play fullback, and the back replacements.

    I'd certainly start Crotty is he's fit or near enough, at 12 with ALB outside him. This was the first choice midfield last year. ALB was our best back last night, and Crotty is Mr Steady.

    Picking J Barrett would have a little of the panic button about it, but still may be the correct move, with Dagg going back to the wing. A choice would need to be made between Naholo and Ioane, unless they simple choose not to risk Naholo.

    I can't recall having to select a guy for his goalkicking since the dark days of Matt Cooper in 1993 and Shane Howarth in 1994, so the whole concept makes me feel a little ill, but that aside, it might be time to give Barrett his shot anyway.

    So for mine, it's Smith, Barrett, Crotty, ALB, Ioane, Dagg and Barrett with TJP, Cruden and I'd like to see them bring Fekitoa in and onto the bench.

    Forwards stay the same. They'll be grumpy.

    Leon MacDonald at centre was mostly for his goal kicking at the 2003 rwc . Awful, we all knew Barrett's kicking woes would haunt us one day.



  • @jegga said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @shark said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    Right, so unavailable are B Smith, SBW and Crotty is a maybe. Naholo sounds like he's Ok. No problem with options on the wings: it's a matter of who's going to make up the midfield, play fullback, and the back replacements.

    I'd certainly start Crotty is he's fit or near enough, at 12 with ALB outside him. This was the first choice midfield last year. ALB was our best back last night, and Crotty is Mr Steady.

    Picking J Barrett would have a little of the panic button about it, but still may be the correct move, with Dagg going back to the wing. A choice would need to be made between Naholo and Ioane, unless they simple choose not to risk Naholo.

    I can't recall having to select a guy for his goalkicking since the dark days of Matt Cooper in 1993 and Shane Howarth in 1994, so the whole concept makes me feel a little ill, but that aside, it might be time to give Barrett his shot anyway.

    So for mine, it's Smith, Barrett, Crotty, ALB, Ioane, Dagg and Barrett with TJP, Cruden and I'd like to see them bring Fekitoa in and onto the bench.

    Forwards stay the same. They'll be grumpy.

    Leon MacDonald at centre was mostly for his goal kicking at the 2003 rwc . Awful, we all knew Barrett's kicking woes would haunt us one day.

    It would be interesting to compare the weather for the various kicks by BB and OF. My recollection is that it was pretty foul for most of BB's ten efforts, but cleared for OF's last three.
    BB's seven penalties is one more than D B Clarke managed in the famous 1959 18-17 Lions win.



  • @Siam said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    Is it Read's 100th?

    Yes it is



  • @jegga I'm not so sure we had a great alternative to rangi anyway when tana went down , nonu was selected as the back up 13 but he was no where near the reliable player he became later .
    Mils should've played 13 , rangi 15 though .



  • @kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @jegga I'm not so sure we had a great alternative to rangi anyway when tana went down , nonu was selected as the back up 13 but he was no where near the reliable player he became later .
    Mils should've played 13 , rangi 15 though .

    Yep, one played most of a Super campaign at centre yet they put the guy who had barely played there at 13. Idiots.



  • @Nepia Of all the times someone's had the smart idea of playing a player out of position I'm struggling to think of one which worked. Plenty have been disasters though!



  • @pakman Dagg or Smith go well at 14... 🙂



  • @KiwiPie said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    One of the reasons the ABs never got much continuity (and zero tries) was the ridiculous number of infringements by the Lions. It felt like every time the ABs had possession in the Lions half, then there would be a penalty. And a man down and in those conditions, you have to take your penalties. And they were all kickable yet BB missed a couple of sitters. 10 kickable penalties in all - when you see a number like that, you wonder how the Lions were never on a team warning for repeated offences - especially as the offside line seemed to disappear completely at times.

    I want to upvote that several more times.

    As this is a "next test" thread we probably need Hansen to stop being so magnanimous in defeat and have a good old whinge in the press. I was getting quite pissed (and pissed off) that the Lions had multiple penalties in the red zone and I can't even recall a warning? Poite will have to listen to his "help" more than Garces to eliminate some errors.

    In the hope that the above doesn't come across as a ref whinge, Garces did award us the penalties, just not a repeat offending card (would have evened up the on field numbers) and Barrett missed a couple of course.

    We really need a reliable goal kicker if the opposition can continually offend and we can't convert to points. With 15 on the field we would have had more options I suppose.



  • BB can be a bit ropey with his aim. A shame he picked the worst possible time to kick poorly. Two of those kicks were absolute sitters. I was sitting in the rain wondering if his lack of kicking for the Canes was coming back to haunt us



  • Although the injury concerns are in the backs I wonder if Romano might be an option on the bench. S Barrett has been OK but some extra bulk would be useful in what is expected to be a brutual test match.

    Where is Squire with his injury? IIRC Hansen said he might be available for the 3rd test. With both locks able to put in an 80 min shift he might provide more impact along with Ardie.



  • @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @Nepia Of all the times someone's had the smart idea of playing a player out of position I'm struggling to think of one which worked. Plenty have been disasters though!

    Funny how it's "out of position" when we lose notable tests.

    I didn't really rate Tana in the midfield TBH. Serviceable at best, and a default option at a time when we really struggled at centre (pre Conrad). Yet his time there is considered a success.



  • @shark said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @Nepia Of all the times someone's had the smart idea of playing a player out of position I'm struggling to think of one which worked. Plenty have been disasters though!

    Funny how it's "out of position" when we lose notable tests.

    I didn't really rate Tana in the midfield TBH. Serviceable at best, and a default option at a time when we really struggled at centre (pre Conrad). Yet his time there is considered a success.

    WTF? Are you serious? He was up with the best in the world in his era as a 13.





  • My thoughts

    1. Poite is a good ref, he is eccentric around the scrum, though. That is where NZ has actually had dominance, so I'm not worried, it might even work in our favour.

    2. Pack unchanged. I would give some thought to Fafita ahead of Barrett on the bench, but that is not without risk. I suppose Romano ahead of Barrett is also an option. Would have been great to have Coles available.

    3. Those suggesting a starting backline involving Laumape (cap 2), Ioane (cap 5), JB (cap 1), ALB (cap 13), I don't think so. Too much risk in a pressure cooker 3rd test. Crotty HAS to be involved if he is fit, we have looked like a sieve on defence at times. Ioane is a great finisher, but his work-rate is currently low, Savea would have been a better option yesterday. Also, those slating Cruden and opting for Sopoaga - he is just as prone to trying crossfield kicks and the like at crucial moments.

    Starting pack - unchanged
    Starting backs (9-15): Smith, Barrett, Savea, Crotty, ALB, Dagg, JB

    Just think Dagg is better at 14, can't believe I'm writing that after he was rubbish at 14 at the Crusaders under Blackadder, but has been an inspired move by Hansen.



  • If the ABs are going to make a tactical change to the way the backs play, they could go TJP for the start.



  • @Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    If the ABs are going to make a tactical change to the way the backs play, they could go TJP for the start.

    We already have an annoying halfback commentating the game for us in Justin Marshall 🙂



  • @Nepia said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @shark said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @Nepia Of all the times someone's had the smart idea of playing a player out of position I'm struggling to think of one which worked. Plenty have been disasters though!

    Funny how it's "out of position" when we lose notable tests.

    I didn't really rate Tana in the midfield TBH. Serviceable at best, and a default option at a time when we really struggled at centre (pre Conrad). Yet his time there is considered a success.

    WTF? Are you serious? He was up with the best in the world in his era as a 13.

    @Nepia said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @shark said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @Nepia Of all the times someone's had the smart idea of playing a player out of position I'm struggling to think of one which worked. Plenty have been disasters though!

    Funny how it's "out of position" when we lose notable tests.

    I didn't really rate Tana in the midfield TBH. Serviceable at best, and a default option at a time when we really struggled at centre (pre Conrad). Yet his time there is considered a success.

    WTF? Are you serious? He was up with the best in the world in his era as a 13.

    Yep 100% serious. Depth was so bad during his era at 13 that Mark Robinson played tests and we shifted Rangi to 13 in 2003. He was there by default and was no great shakes. Not hard to be "up there with the best in the world in his era" given there was Mortlock and then daylight.



  • @taniwharugby said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @pakman Dagg or Smith go well at 14... 🙂

    So did Jane who was mostly a FB previously for the Canes



  • @Nepia said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @shark said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:

    @Nepia Of all the times someone's had the smart idea of playing a player out of position I'm struggling to think of one which worked. Plenty have been disasters though!

    Funny how it's "out of position" when we lose notable tests.

    I didn't really rate Tana in the midfield TBH. Serviceable at best, and a default option at a time when we really struggled at centre (pre Conrad). Yet his time there is considered a success.

    WTF? Are you serious? He was up with the best in the world in his era as a 13.

    yeah i thought he was a warrior in the midfield ,and complimented Mauger very well IMO.


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