Socialism!
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@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Socialism!:
This quote is gold:
The difference between Nazis and Communists is that when you mention the horrors of Naziism no one ever says "Yeah, but true Naziism has never really been tried.
You fellas love your quotes eh?
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?Interesting argument, though one I strongly disagree with. Both ideologies are equally awful, and both are based on the ideal of wiping out anyone that doesn't conform.
When people talk about "equality" as something we should aspire too they have to be completely detached from reality to think it represents anything close to a good or moral idea. It's completely flawed (the world is unequal by nature, duh), but also immoral.
It basically boils down to having two people in a room, one with $5 and the other with $15. That's unequal, so to make it fair we have to steal $5 from the person with $15 and give it to the person with $5. That (stealing) is fundamentally immoral - there's no way you can argue otherwise.
Here's an interesting quote - can you guess who said this? (hint: he didn't like Jews).
"We are socialists, we are the enemy of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions".
Your viewpoint does point to a wider issue in western society though - that we are doing a good job teaching our youth about how devastatingly bad the Nazi ideology was, but we are not doing the same for the Communism. Which is nuts when you consider that Communism has been far more destructive, over a much longer period of time, and to many more countries.
And that makes it so much more dangerous.
There's fuck all people identifying as a Nazi or a white supremacist today. Seriously, the KKK has 5000 members in the States. That's 0.002% of the population, and they are a laughing stock. The only reason they've got any coverage lately is because certain outlets (like CNN) want to conflate Trump supporters with being racist, so need to give the KKK some validity which they don't have.
Marxist ideas on the other hand, do have the potential to spread, and in fact already are. "Equality" has made a comeback via ideologues in Universities through Post Modernism (everything is a social construct) and Identity Politics (race, gender, sexuality etc. combined with power). It's unbelievably toxic, it has infected Left wing politics, and is the number one reason we have such a polarizing political environment right now.
And now we have groups like Antifa, who are basically carbon copies of Hitler's people, violently attacking people that disagree with them with the stated aim of tearing down the capitalist system. What they are doing right now is infinitely more dangerous than any white supremacist group, because they actually have support from a decent portion of people on the left who have bought into Identity Politics, and also because history shows this ideology is far more persuasive and destructive than anything we have seen.
I laugh at the self proclaimed alt-right/Nazis. They're a joke. But the communists really do concern me.
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@No-Quarter said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Socialism!:
This quote is gold:
The difference between Nazis and Communists is that when you mention the horrors of Naziism no one ever says "Yeah, but true Naziism has never really been tried.
You fellas love your quotes eh?
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?Interesting argument, though one I strongly disagree with. Both ideologies are equally awful, and both are based on the ideal of wiping out anyone that doesn't conform.
When people talk about "equality" as something we should aspire too they have to be completely detached from reality to think it represents anything close to a good or moral idea. It's completely flawed (the world is unequal by nature, duh), but also immoral.
It basically boils down to having two people in a room, one with $5 and the other with $15. That's unequal, so to make it fair we have to steal $5 from the person with $15 and give it to the person with $5. That (stealing) is fundamentally immoral - there's no way you can argue otherwise.
Here's an interesting quote - can you guess who said this? (hint: he didn't like Jews).
"We are socialists, we are the enemy of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions".
Your viewpoint does point to a wider issue in western society though - that we are doing a good job teaching our youth about how devastatingly bad the Nazi ideology was, but we are not doing the same for the Communism. Which is nuts when you consider that Communism has been far more destructive, over a much longer period of time, and to many more countries.
And that makes it so much more dangerous.
There's fuck all people identifying as a Nazi or a white supremacist today. Seriously, the KKK has 5000 members in the States. That's 0.002% of the population, and they are a laughing stock. The only reason they've got any coverage lately is because certain outlets (like CNN) want to conflate Trump supporters with being racist, so need to give the KKK some validity which they don't have.
Marxist ideas on the other hand, do have the potential to spread, and in fact already are. "Equality" has made a comeback via ideologues in Universities through Post Modernism (everything is a social construct) and Identity Politics (race, gender, sexuality etc. combined with power). It's unbelievably toxic, it has infected Left wing politics, and is the number one reason we have such a polarizing political environment right now.
And now we have groups like Antifa, who are basically carbon copies of Hitler's people, violently attacking people that disagree with them with the stated aim of tearing down the capitalist system. What they are doing right now is infinitely more dangerous than any white supremacist group, because they actually have support from a decent portion of people on the left who have bought into Identity Politics, and also because history shows this ideology is far more persuasive and destructive than anything we have seen.
I laugh at the self proclaimed alt-right/Nazis. They're a joke. But the communists really do concern me.
firstly, i haven't defended communism in any way. there is however undeniably a difference between a stated policy of genocide and a stated policy of equality (that people commit murder in the name of). the results may be equally evil, but the means of getting there is not.
i counter your 2 people in a room analogy with another - 2 people, 1 of them has some food - redistribute it or starve one of them? what's the moral choice there? my point being that it isn't absolutes. absolute capitalism does not have a welfare state - no universal health or education.
the communist party of the US has an estimated 5000 members too mate. i think the difference you're seeing is that nobody is prepared to give the KKK any sort of platform, so you don't hear from them. i don't think the commies are in any danger of taking anything over - and i think the only time a group like antifa will get mainstream support of any sort is when they are protesting against nazis.
as i've said previously, a commie walking down the street isn't really going to liberate the means of production and give it to the proleteriat. a nazi walking down the street may decide to intimidate / beat the shit out of someone. i guess arseholes like antifa are changing that equation somewhat.
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@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@No-Quarter said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Socialism!:
This quote is gold:
The difference between Nazis and Communists is that when you mention the horrors of Naziism no one ever says "Yeah, but true Naziism has never really been tried.
You fellas love your quotes eh?
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?Interesting argument, though one I strongly disagree with. Both ideologies are equally awful, and both are based on the ideal of wiping out anyone that doesn't conform.
When people talk about "equality" as something we should aspire too they have to be completely detached from reality to think it represents anything close to a good or moral idea. It's completely flawed (the world is unequal by nature, duh), but also immoral.
It basically boils down to having two people in a room, one with $5 and the other with $15. That's unequal, so to make it fair we have to steal $5 from the person with $15 and give it to the person with $5. That (stealing) is fundamentally immoral - there's no way you can argue otherwise.
Here's an interesting quote - can you guess who said this? (hint: he didn't like Jews).
"We are socialists, we are the enemy of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions".
Your viewpoint does point to a wider issue in western society though - that we are doing a good job teaching our youth about how devastatingly bad the Nazi ideology was, but we are not doing the same for the Communism. Which is nuts when you consider that Communism has been far more destructive, over a much longer period of time, and to many more countries.
And that makes it so much more dangerous.
There's fuck all people identifying as a Nazi or a white supremacist today. Seriously, the KKK has 5000 members in the States. That's 0.002% of the population, and they are a laughing stock. The only reason they've got any coverage lately is because certain outlets (like CNN) want to conflate Trump supporters with being racist, so need to give the KKK some validity which they don't have.
Marxist ideas on the other hand, do have the potential to spread, and in fact already are. "Equality" has made a comeback via ideologues in Universities through Post Modernism (everything is a social construct) and Identity Politics (race, gender, sexuality etc. combined with power). It's unbelievably toxic, it has infected Left wing politics, and is the number one reason we have such a polarizing political environment right now.
And now we have groups like Antifa, who are basically carbon copies of Hitler's people, violently attacking people that disagree with them with the stated aim of tearing down the capitalist system. What they are doing right now is infinitely more dangerous than any white supremacist group, because they actually have support from a decent portion of people on the left who have bought into Identity Politics, and also because history shows this ideology is far more persuasive and destructive than anything we have seen.
I laugh at the self proclaimed alt-right/Nazis. They're a joke. But the communists really do concern me.
firstly, i haven't defended communism in any way. there is however undeniably a difference between a stated policy of genocide and a stated policy of equality (that people commit murder in the name of). the results may be equally evil, but the means of getting there is not.
i counter your 2 people in a room analogy with another - 2 people, 1 of them has some food - redistribute it or starve one of them? what's the moral choice there? my point being that it isn't absolutes. absolute capitalism does not have a welfare state - no universal health or education.
the communist party of the US has an estimated 5000 members too mate. i think the difference you're seeing is that nobody is prepared to give the KKK any sort of platform, so you don't hear from them. i don't think the commies are in any danger of taking anything over - and i think the only time a group like antifa will get mainstream support of any sort is when they are protesting against nazis.
as i've said previously, a commie walking down the street isn't really going to liberate the means of production and give it to the proleteriat. a nazi walking down the street may decide to intimidate / beat the shit out of someone. i guess arseholes like antifa are changing that equation somewhat.
Communism has as much of a stated policy of genocide as the Nazis did. You don't fit the system... you die.
You claim you are not defending communism and then you claim that the means of getting to a communist state is not evil. ..... -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@No-Quarter said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Socialism!:
This quote is gold:
The difference between Nazis and Communists is that when you mention the horrors of Naziism no one ever says "Yeah, but true Naziism has never really been tried.
You fellas love your quotes eh?
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?Interesting argument, though one I strongly disagree with. Both ideologies are equally awful, and both are based on the ideal of wiping out anyone that doesn't conform.
When people talk about "equality" as something we should aspire too they have to be completely detached from reality to think it represents anything close to a good or moral idea. It's completely flawed (the world is unequal by nature, duh), but also immoral.
It basically boils down to having two people in a room, one with $5 and the other with $15. That's unequal, so to make it fair we have to steal $5 from the person with $15 and give it to the person with $5. That (stealing) is fundamentally immoral - there's no way you can argue otherwise.
Here's an interesting quote - can you guess who said this? (hint: he didn't like Jews).
"We are socialists, we are the enemy of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions".
Your viewpoint does point to a wider issue in western society though - that we are doing a good job teaching our youth about how devastatingly bad the Nazi ideology was, but we are not doing the same for the Communism. Which is nuts when you consider that Communism has been far more destructive, over a much longer period of time, and to many more countries.
And that makes it so much more dangerous.
There's fuck all people identifying as a Nazi or a white supremacist today. Seriously, the KKK has 5000 members in the States. That's 0.002% of the population, and they are a laughing stock. The only reason they've got any coverage lately is because certain outlets (like CNN) want to conflate Trump supporters with being racist, so need to give the KKK some validity which they don't have.
Marxist ideas on the other hand, do have the potential to spread, and in fact already are. "Equality" has made a comeback via ideologues in Universities through Post Modernism (everything is a social construct) and Identity Politics (race, gender, sexuality etc. combined with power). It's unbelievably toxic, it has infected Left wing politics, and is the number one reason we have such a polarizing political environment right now.
And now we have groups like Antifa, who are basically carbon copies of Hitler's people, violently attacking people that disagree with them with the stated aim of tearing down the capitalist system. What they are doing right now is infinitely more dangerous than any white supremacist group, because they actually have support from a decent portion of people on the left who have bought into Identity Politics, and also because history shows this ideology is far more persuasive and destructive than anything we have seen.
I laugh at the self proclaimed alt-right/Nazis. They're a joke. But the communists really do concern me.
firstly, i haven't defended communism in any way. there is however undeniably a difference between a stated policy of genocide and a stated policy of equality (that people commit murder in the name of). the results may be equally evil, but the means of getting there is not.
i counter your 2 people in a room analogy with another - 2 people, 1 of them has some food - redistribute it or starve one of them? what's the moral choice there? my point being that it isn't absolutes. absolute capitalism does not have a welfare state - no universal health or education.
the communist party of the US has an estimated 5000 members too mate. i think the difference you're seeing is that nobody is prepared to give the KKK any sort of platform, so you don't hear from them. i don't think the commies are in any danger of taking anything over - and i think the only time a group like antifa will get mainstream support of any sort is when they are protesting against nazis.
as i've said previously, a commie walking down the street isn't really going to liberate the means of production and give it to the proleteriat. a nazi walking down the street may decide to intimidate / beat the shit out of someone. i guess arseholes like antifa are changing that equation somewhat.
Communism has as much of a stated policy of genocide as the Nazis did. You don't fit the system... you die.
You claim you are not defending communism and then you claim that the means of getting to a communist state is not evil. .....no i didn't. or perhaps i didn't express myself clearly - the means by which communism has been enforced is evil.
again, not defending it, but there is an obvious difference between a system based on political ideology (no matter how wrong), and a system that you are not a part of because of your race. -
Communism doesn't have to be a dictatorship - that was the Soviet style which spread, and it was awful, but for most of human history, society was organised as some form of socialism or communism. It was fine for a tribe of 100 hunter gatherers, but human nature means it doesn't scale well.
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@Godder said in Socialism!:
Communism doesn't have to be a dictatorship - that was the Soviet style which spread, and it was awful, but for most of human history, society was organised as some form of socialism or communism. It was fine for a tribe of 100 hunter gatherers, but human nature means it doesn't scale well.
Classic. I wondered how long before someone tried out the nonsense that communism is juts about caring and sharing. Bollox it is. It is about complete and utter suppression of personal freedoms and choice. It is about complete control over the mans of production. Sure it shares things.. so what? So does capitalism. Do did feudalism, just how and to the extent of sharing that is different.
100 hunter gathers didn't practice communism in any real form.
Humans have always cared and shared for those close to them. That isn't communism, that is human nature, and funnily enough human nature is exactly what communism completely ignores. -
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@No-Quarter said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Socialism!:
This quote is gold:
The difference between Nazis and Communists is that when you mention the horrors of Naziism no one ever says "Yeah, but true Naziism has never really been tried.
You fellas love your quotes eh?
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?Interesting argument, though one I strongly disagree with. Both ideologies are equally awful, and both are based on the ideal of wiping out anyone that doesn't conform.
When people talk about "equality" as something we should aspire too they have to be completely detached from reality to think it represents anything close to a good or moral idea. It's completely flawed (the world is unequal by nature, duh), but also immoral.
It basically boils down to having two people in a room, one with $5 and the other with $15. That's unequal, so to make it fair we have to steal $5 from the person with $15 and give it to the person with $5. That (stealing) is fundamentally immoral - there's no way you can argue otherwise.
Here's an interesting quote - can you guess who said this? (hint: he didn't like Jews).
"We are socialists, we are the enemy of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions".
Your viewpoint does point to a wider issue in western society though - that we are doing a good job teaching our youth about how devastatingly bad the Nazi ideology was, but we are not doing the same for the Communism. Which is nuts when you consider that Communism has been far more destructive, over a much longer period of time, and to many more countries.
And that makes it so much more dangerous.
There's fuck all people identifying as a Nazi or a white supremacist today. Seriously, the KKK has 5000 members in the States. That's 0.002% of the population, and they are a laughing stock. The only reason they've got any coverage lately is because certain outlets (like CNN) want to conflate Trump supporters with being racist, so need to give the KKK some validity which they don't have.
Marxist ideas on the other hand, do have the potential to spread, and in fact already are. "Equality" has made a comeback via ideologues in Universities through Post Modernism (everything is a social construct) and Identity Politics (race, gender, sexuality etc. combined with power). It's unbelievably toxic, it has infected Left wing politics, and is the number one reason we have such a polarizing political environment right now.
And now we have groups like Antifa, who are basically carbon copies of Hitler's people, violently attacking people that disagree with them with the stated aim of tearing down the capitalist system. What they are doing right now is infinitely more dangerous than any white supremacist group, because they actually have support from a decent portion of people on the left who have bought into Identity Politics, and also because history shows this ideology is far more persuasive and destructive than anything we have seen.
I laugh at the self proclaimed alt-right/Nazis. They're a joke. But the communists really do concern me.
firstly, i haven't defended communism in any way. there is however undeniably a difference between a stated policy of genocide and a stated policy of equality (that people commit murder in the name of). the results may be equally evil, but the means of getting there is not.
i counter your 2 people in a room analogy with another - 2 people, 1 of them has some food - redistribute it or starve one of them? what's the moral choice there? my point being that it isn't absolutes. absolute capitalism does not have a welfare state - no universal health or education.
the communist party of the US has an estimated 5000 members too mate. i think the difference you're seeing is that nobody is prepared to give the KKK any sort of platform, so you don't hear from them. i don't think the commies are in any danger of taking anything over - and i think the only time a group like antifa will get mainstream support of any sort is when they are protesting against nazis.
as i've said previously, a commie walking down the street isn't really going to liberate the means of production and give it to the proleteriat. a nazi walking down the street may decide to intimidate / beat the shit out of someone. i guess arseholes like antifa are changing that equation somewhat.
Communism has as much of a stated policy of genocide as the Nazis did. You don't fit the system... you die.
You claim you are not defending communism and then you claim that the means of getting to a communist state is not evil. .....no i didn't. or perhaps i didn't express myself clearly - the means by which communism has been enforced is evil.
again, not defending it, but there is an obvious difference between a system based on political ideology (no matter how wrong), and a system that you are not a part of because of your race.Yes you did, You used those exact words in fact, which was incredibly illustrative of your true position.
The fact you cannot accept communism is evil is quite sad. It is a system that espouses the complete elimination of personal choice and freedom, it espouses the brutal elimination of any that don't follow that belief. It is no different to the nazis, I have no issue with saying both systems are evil, yet you cannot
You can console yourself that communism didnt murder based on race (which is wrong btw), or that the system didnt tell them to murder on race. But you should find ZERO comfort that instead the system espouses murder of dissenting vies because you don't agree with the party... or believe on individual freedom. Seriously I have no idea how you can justify in any ay a system that will murder you for being a free thinking and free willed individual. That is just as bad as being murdered for your race. Because like race, being free willed and free thinking are basic human traits.
You seem to think that being murdered for some unavoidable human traits is better than being murdered for other unavoidable human traits. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback has said most of what I was going to say.
But, @reprobate I think you are grossly underestimating how far the Marxist ideas have spread in western society. I urge you to watch Jordan Peterson talk about Post Modernism and Neo-Marxism, as he articulates it far better than I.
But it's pretty clear to see that ideas around "equality of outcome" have made a big comeback - but instead of it being about the proleteriat and the bourgeoisie with the ensuing revolution, it is now "oppressor" vs "oppressed". And there's an infinite number of ways to define who is the oppressor and who is oppressed. Men are oppressors, women are oppressed. White people are oppressors, black people are oppressed. Heterosexuals are oppressors, homosexuals are oppressed. etc. etc. etc. etc. And this is all the result of Capitalism.
Massive corporations like Google are now implementing racist and sexist policies to try and achieve the unachievable "equality". They are also actively censoring people with an opposing viewpoint. More worryingly Government departments have been doing the same.
Because a large chunk on the left have bought into Identity Politics (a lot without realising it is fundamentally based on Marxism), groups like Antifa have risen and are now causing havoc attacking whoever they think might be a racist. And many on the left are 100% backing them. That's far more concerning than the bloody KKK as it's a detestable ideology that continues to spread.
I think your sympathetic position on communism really highlights how persuasive and dangerous it is.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@Godder said in Socialism!:
Communism doesn't have to be a dictatorship - that was the Soviet style which spread, and it was awful, but for most of human history, society was organised as some form of socialism or communism. It was fine for a tribe of 100 hunter gatherers, but human nature means it doesn't scale well.
Classic. I wondered how long before someone tried out the nonsense that communism is juts about caring and sharing. Bollox it is. It is about complete and utter suppression of personal freedoms and choice. It is about complete control over the mans of production. Sure it shares things.. so what? So does capitalism. Do did feudalism, just how and to the extent of sharing that is different.
100 hunter gathers didn't practice communism in any real form.
Humans have always cared and shared for those close to them. That isn't communism, that is human nature, and funnily enough human nature is exactly what communism completely ignores.Missed the point of my post as usual and just launched into an attack.
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An important point to be made is that the truly dangerous part of the communist/Marxist ideology is the means and tactics employed for achieving their goal of destroying the capitalist system. It is utterly false to claim that the ideology or the intentions behind it are totally benign.
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@Godder said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@Godder said in Socialism!:
Communism doesn't have to be a dictatorship - that was the Soviet style which spread, and it was awful, but for most of human history, society was organised as some form of socialism or communism. It was fine for a tribe of 100 hunter gatherers, but human nature means it doesn't scale well.
Classic. I wondered how long before someone tried out the nonsense that communism is juts about caring and sharing. Bollox it is. It is about complete and utter suppression of personal freedoms and choice. It is about complete control over the mans of production. Sure it shares things.. so what? So does capitalism. Do did feudalism, just how and to the extent of sharing that is different.
100 hunter gathers didn't practice communism in any real form.
Humans have always cared and shared for those close to them. That isn't communism, that is human nature, and funnily enough human nature is exactly what communism completely ignores.Missed the point of my post as usual and just launched into an attack.
Attack? Cool story.
I didnt miss your point . It was classic left wing bullshit denial of the evil communist system.
But prove be wrong. Tell me you think the communist system is evil regardless of scale. -
@No-Quarter @Baron-Silas-Greenback both covered it pretty well
I find that both Nazism and Communism ideology rely entirely on the existence of an oppressor/victim relationship. This relationship is incredibly seductive in that it discourages self-responsibility and convinces people that they are victims and that everything wrong in their lives is solely due to an oppressor group.
As victims they now feel they are entitled to exact justice against their 'oppressors' be they Jews or Kulaks. The thing is once their brand of justice is dealt out their ideology doesn't just stop. They still need this oppressor/victim relationship to breathe so they expand on both the 'oppressor' as well on their perceived victimhood status in order to find new enemies to exact social justice on.
Modern day White Supremacists, Black Lives Matter advocates, Antifa, radical Islamists and even Feminists all share these similar characteristics and I have no doubt given the same oxygen to grow without criticism they too would result in the genocidal horrors of the past.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@No-Quarter said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Socialism!:
This quote is gold:
The difference between Nazis and Communists is that when you mention the horrors of Naziism no one ever says "Yeah, but true Naziism has never really been tried.
You fellas love your quotes eh?
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?Interesting argument, though one I strongly disagree with. Both ideologies are equally awful, and both are based on the ideal of wiping out anyone that doesn't conform.
When people talk about "equality" as something we should aspire too they have to be completely detached from reality to think it represents anything close to a good or moral idea. It's completely flawed (the world is unequal by nature, duh), but also immoral.
It basically boils down to having two people in a room, one with $5 and the other with $15. That's unequal, so to make it fair we have to steal $5 from the person with $15 and give it to the person with $5. That (stealing) is fundamentally immoral - there's no way you can argue otherwise.
Here's an interesting quote - can you guess who said this? (hint: he didn't like Jews).
"We are socialists, we are the enemy of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions".
Your viewpoint does point to a wider issue in western society though - that we are doing a good job teaching our youth about how devastatingly bad the Nazi ideology was, but we are not doing the same for the Communism. Which is nuts when you consider that Communism has been far more destructive, over a much longer period of time, and to many more countries.
And that makes it so much more dangerous.
There's fuck all people identifying as a Nazi or a white supremacist today. Seriously, the KKK has 5000 members in the States. That's 0.002% of the population, and they are a laughing stock. The only reason they've got any coverage lately is because certain outlets (like CNN) want to conflate Trump supporters with being racist, so need to give the KKK some validity which they don't have.
Marxist ideas on the other hand, do have the potential to spread, and in fact already are. "Equality" has made a comeback via ideologues in Universities through Post Modernism (everything is a social construct) and Identity Politics (race, gender, sexuality etc. combined with power). It's unbelievably toxic, it has infected Left wing politics, and is the number one reason we have such a polarizing political environment right now.
And now we have groups like Antifa, who are basically carbon copies of Hitler's people, violently attacking people that disagree with them with the stated aim of tearing down the capitalist system. What they are doing right now is infinitely more dangerous than any white supremacist group, because they actually have support from a decent portion of people on the left who have bought into Identity Politics, and also because history shows this ideology is far more persuasive and destructive than anything we have seen.
I laugh at the self proclaimed alt-right/Nazis. They're a joke. But the communists really do concern me.
firstly, i haven't defended communism in any way. there is however undeniably a difference between a stated policy of genocide and a stated policy of equality (that people commit murder in the name of). the results may be equally evil, but the means of getting there is not.
i counter your 2 people in a room analogy with another - 2 people, 1 of them has some food - redistribute it or starve one of them? what's the moral choice there? my point being that it isn't absolutes. absolute capitalism does not have a welfare state - no universal health or education.
the communist party of the US has an estimated 5000 members too mate. i think the difference you're seeing is that nobody is prepared to give the KKK any sort of platform, so you don't hear from them. i don't think the commies are in any danger of taking anything over - and i think the only time a group like antifa will get mainstream support of any sort is when they are protesting against nazis.
as i've said previously, a commie walking down the street isn't really going to liberate the means of production and give it to the proleteriat. a nazi walking down the street may decide to intimidate / beat the shit out of someone. i guess arseholes like antifa are changing that equation somewhat.
Communism has as much of a stated policy of genocide as the Nazis did. You don't fit the system... you die.
You claim you are not defending communism and then you claim that the means of getting to a communist state is not evil. .....no i didn't. or perhaps i didn't express myself clearly - the means by which communism has been enforced is evil.
again, not defending it, but there is an obvious difference between a system based on political ideology (no matter how wrong), and a system that you are not a part of because of your race.Yes you did, You used those exact words in fact, which was incredibly illustrative of your true position.
The fact you cannot accept communism is evil is quite sad. It is a system that espouses the complete elimination of personal choice and freedom, it espouses the brutal elimination of any that don't follow that belief. It is no different to the nazis, I have no issue with saying both systems are evil, yet you cannot
You can console yourself that communism didnt murder based on race (which is wrong btw), or that the system didnt tell them to murder on race. But you should find ZERO comfort that instead the system espouses murder of dissenting vies because you don't agree with the party... or believe on individual freedom. Seriously I have no idea how you can justify in any ay a system that will murder you for being a free thinking and free willed individual. That is just as bad as being murdered for your race. Because like race, being free willed and free thinking are basic human traits.
You seem to think that being murdered for some unavoidable human traits is better than being murdered for other unavoidable human traits.Keep ranting mate. I did say communism was evil and would never work. It's just I was trying to make another point as well, but you feel so strongly about the subject that you see anything which isn't that exact sentence as a defence of communism and just rant. Never said better, just said different. Never said not evil. Never said would work.
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@reprobate said in Socialism!
The difference is that communism is a system based on an ideal of equality, whereas Naziism is based on an ideal of the exact opposite, and in fact genocide.
True communism cannot exist, because of the moral hazard involved. It's a disastrous proven failure that had led to despotism that has cost a vast number of lives - but you can be a well meaning idiot who supports the ideal, Naziism not so much.
Or:
Wouldn't it be great if everyone was equal?
Wouldn't it be great if all the Jews were dead?@reprobate said in Socialism!:
Keep ranting mate. I did say communism was evil and would never work. It's just I was trying to make another point as well, but you feel so strongly about the subject that you see anything which isn't that exact sentence as a defence of communism and just rant. Never said better, just said different. Never said not evil. Never said would work.
Ranting? Nah... just picking apart a very weak argument.
You clearly said that well meaning idiot can support Communism, that is so incredibly weak. But typical of the free pass communism gets form some quarters. Communism is blatantly evil, you are not 'well meaning' (as you said) to support it.... you are a fucking muppet if you support it. You are not well meaning to support evil.I am sure the neo Nazis see themselves as well meaning as well.. they are fucking muppets as well. It is like a Nazi supporter saying they are well meaning as Hitler lead to a drop in crime rates, a stop to jewish business dominance and a safer society. Yeah.. real well meaning.
The difference of course is that you jumped into the discussion to proclaim that those of us saying that the Nazi and communists are just as bad as each other (as history as shown us) are wrong. As usual you have back pedaled so fast it makes your initial post and attempt to argue laughably bad. -
@Baron-Silas-Greenback you clearly don't understand the concept of well meaning idiot.
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@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback you clearly don't understand the concept of well meaning idiot.
I understand that it is a pathetic defence of communism from you.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Socialism!:
@reprobate said in Socialism!:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback you clearly don't understand the concept of well meaning idiot.
I understand that it is a pathetic defence of communism from you.
Ironically enough, that's precisely the bit you don't understand: that I'm not defending communism.