England V Samoa



  • England team named. Some surprises. Hartley to the bench, no Farrell or Vunipola in the match day squad. Eddie managing the percentages in player welfare?

    Brown; May, Slade, Lozowski, Daly; Ford (C), Care; Genge, George, Cole; Launchbury, Ewels; Itoje, Robshaw (C), Simmonds

    Replacements: Hartley, Marler, Williams, Isiekwe, Lawes, Youngs, Francis, Rokoduguni.



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  • Sadly, against this current Samoa team this will be a training run for England.



  • Saw England are rightly not going to give Samoa Union any of the gate. But they should be giving something directly to the players. I would hope there has been some kind of arrangement in the shadows.



  • @raznomore said in England V Samoa:

    Saw England are rightly not going to give Samoa Union any of the gate. But they should be giving something directly to the players. I would hope there has been some kind of arrangement in the shadows.

    They've agreed to make an additional payment of £75K - additional to meeting all costs while hosting that is. The RFU are discussing with World Rugby just which account to pay the money in to (Caveat: That is my interpretation of "discussing the manner of the payment")



  • I hadn't seen this before as I was more interested in the Scotland/Oz game but IMO this action should have been penalised at minimum. No way should stud first slides at kickers feet be deemed a charge down attempt. It is bad enough that refs seem to ignore defenders sliding feet first to attempt to stop tries but this bullshit should not be allowed at all.

    I only picked this up on the Rugbyrefs site where there is quite a bit of debate on the subject but in one comment apparently Itoje has done this before for Saracens as was warned after the game that contact could result in a RC.



  • @crucial It was being lauded by Stuart Barnes as being "Schmeichel-esque", which sort of ignored the fact that he knocked the ball on and it was in all likliehood illegal.

    He really is a twat of a commentator sometimes.



  • @crucial Hadn't noticed it while watching the game. I agree, this should be penalised. If Itoje wants to slide feet first, let him play football. Geez, and the commentator thinks it's fantastic and that Itoje is a smart player. Moron.



  • In assessing these things I just put myself in the place of a player.

    If I had someone slide at me feet first while I was kicking I would be ropable. You take on plenty of known risks in the game but this shouldn't be one of them.

    Mind you I am still perplexed that even when TMOing try decisions, refs don't admonish defenders for feet first slides at the scorer.



  • I really like Stuart Barnes as a commentator. But he's wrong on this occasion. All he did was dive down to prevent a grubber. Not that I want this sort of stuff to come into rugby, but TNW should have just kept running and it's a leg trip which is a straight red card I think these days.

    Barnes has clearly been sucked in by the Itoje is god, everything Itoje does is amazing craze which has been sweeping the rugby journo's up here, which I really don't get.

    Look, he's a really good player with loads of potential, but he doesn't stand out THAT much. It's too easy to call him over rated, and that really sounds negative, but it shouldn't. He's over rated, because I think he's about a 8/10 player from what I've seen, but people go on about him like he's the next Lomu.



  • A little against the grain here, but what's wrong with it? Yes he knocks on, but that's not what any of you are talking about. Do his feet even touch TNW? It's not like he went through him Roy Keane-esque (which i have done in not a proud moment during a spiteful game in Huntly i think it was). He went across the front of TNW and made him drop the ball. Good play.

    Slater-esque feet-first into a dudes head while he is diving for a try is a mile from that. By all means go after him if he trips him, but dont have a go at "might have"

    Barnes is a dick though



  • @mariner4life said in England V Samoa:

    A little against the grain here, but what's wrong with it? Yes he knocks on, but that's not what any of you are talking about. Do his feet even touch TNW? It's not like he went through him Roy Keane-esque (which i have done in not a proud moment during a spiteful game in Huntly i think it was). He went across the front of TNW and made him drop the ball. Good play.

    Slater-esque feet-first into a dudes head while he is diving for a try is a mile from that. By all means go after him if he trips him, but dont have a go at "might have"

    Barnes is a dick though

    It is the inherent danger of the attempt that is the issue.

    No, he didn't make contact but it was a dangerous play just as a tackle in the air that doesn't result in injury is a dangerous play.

    Put it another way. What if everyone started diving feet first toward kickers to put them off? Do we want that in the game? As a kicker do you hold your ground and risk a kick to the ankle if it goes wrong or pull away?

    I just think it isn't, and never has been, part of the game and a penalty for dangerous play would stop a possible trend in its tracks.

    Also has the potential for a massive flare up between teams.



  • @majorrage said in England V Samoa:

    I really like Stuart Barnes as a commentator. But he's wrong on this occasion. All he did was dive down to prevent a grubber. Not that I want this sort of stuff to come into rugby, but TNW should have just kept running and it's a leg trip which is a straight red card I think these days.

    Barnes has clearly been sucked in by the Itoje is god, everything Itoje does is amazing craze which has been sweeping the rugby journo's up here, which I really don't get.

    Look, he's a really good player with loads of potential, but he doesn't stand out THAT much. It's too easy to call him over rated, and that really sounds negative, but it shouldn't. He's over rated, because I think he's about a 8/10 player from what I've seen, but people go on about him like he's the next Lomu.

    Itoje stands out for one reason. He looks an impressive unit with the beach muscle body.



  • @crucial said in England V Samoa:

    @majorrage said in England V Samoa:

    I really like Stuart Barnes as a commentator. But he's wrong on this occasion. All he did was dive down to prevent a grubber. Not that I want this sort of stuff to come into rugby, but TNW should have just kept running and it's a leg trip which is a straight red card I think these days.

    Barnes has clearly been sucked in by the Itoje is god, everything Itoje does is amazing craze which has been sweeping the rugby journo's up here, which I really don't get.

    Look, he's a really good player with loads of potential, but he doesn't stand out THAT much. It's too easy to call him over rated, and that really sounds negative, but it shouldn't. He's over rated, because I think he's about a 8/10 player from what I've seen, but people go on about him like he's the next Lomu.

    Itoje stands out for one reason. He looks an impressive unit with the beach muscle body.

    Not to mention his work rate, line out steals, tackling, turn-over skills and ball carrying.

    He is a very good player that may one day become an excellent player. It is easy to overlook his abilities due to fatigue from the hype, but you'd have to be blind not to see his worth to the England squad.



  • @catogrande said in England V Samoa:

    @crucial said in England V Samoa:

    @majorrage said in England V Samoa:

    I really like Stuart Barnes as a commentator. But he's wrong on this occasion. All he did was dive down to prevent a grubber. Not that I want this sort of stuff to come into rugby, but TNW should have just kept running and it's a leg trip which is a straight red card I think these days.

    Barnes has clearly been sucked in by the Itoje is god, everything Itoje does is amazing craze which has been sweeping the rugby journo's up here, which I really don't get.

    Look, he's a really good player with loads of potential, but he doesn't stand out THAT much. It's too easy to call him over rated, and that really sounds negative, but it shouldn't. He's over rated, because I think he's about a 8/10 player from what I've seen, but people go on about him like he's the next Lomu.

    Itoje stands out for one reason. He looks an impressive unit with the beach muscle body.

    Not to mention his work rate, line out steals, tackling, turn-over skills and ball carrying.

    He is a very good player that may one day become an excellent player. It is easy to overlook his abilities due to fatigue from the hype, but you'd have to be blind not to see his worth to the England squad.

    Not saying he isn't good. He just isn't as good as he is made out to be.

    He is also a terrible ruck watcher.



  • @crucial You will note I didn't mention his ruck work...



  • @catogrande said in England V Samoa:

    @crucial You will note I didn't mention his ruck work...

    A lot of his 'visibility' is due to his lack of tight work IMO. He gets plaudits for popping up all over the place because he is free from the ground



  • @crucial said in England V Samoa:

    @catogrande said in England V Samoa:

    @crucial You will note I didn't mention his ruck work...

    A lot of his 'visibility' is due to his lack of tight work IMO. He gets plaudits for popping up all over the place because he is free from the ground

    Yeah, makes for a good highlights reel. In a way similar to Dane Coles. He (rightly) gets lauded for his work in the wide open spaces, but hardly ever gets a mention for his tight work. Not saying he shirks it, just that it gets ignored for the flashier stuff.



  • I just think he is extremely average when it comes to the tight.

    As you can see I just don't get the hype about him except that he looks the goods and is a marketing godsend. I have yet to see him play a game where I have sat up and thought 'fuck this guy really is good'.

    Plus the shouty stuff puts me off him big time



  • @crucial said in England V Samoa:

    I just think he is extremely average when it comes to the tight.

    As you can see I just don't get the hype about him except that he looks the goods and is a marketing godsend. I have yet to see him play a game where I have sat up and thought 'fuck this guy really is good'.

    Plus the shouty stuff puts me off him big time

    The tight work is something that he needs to put more into when wearing an England shirt. I've seen some impressive performances in this area for Sarries though, so maybe Eddie is asking him to do less in this area. To be fair if your flankers are Robshaw and Haskell then it is in the loose that things are lacking rather than the tight. The thing that might belie this is that he played for the Lions in much the same way.

    You're right that he is seen as a poster boy and I agree the shouty-clappy stuff is a bit off. But I look at his performances and what he brings and see an awful lot of potential there. Is he the goods as yet? No. Emphatically. Could he be? I'd say yes.

    Ignore the hype. Hope he cuts out the clappy shit and I'll be happy.



  • @crucial said in England V Samoa:

    @mariner4life said in England V Samoa:

    A little against the grain here, but what's wrong with it? Yes he knocks on, but that's not what any of you are talking about. Do his feet even touch TNW? It's not like he went through him Roy Keane-esque (which i have done in not a proud moment during a spiteful game in Huntly i think it was). He went across the front of TNW and made him drop the ball. Good play.

    Slater-esque feet-first into a dudes head while he is diving for a try is a mile from that. By all means go after him if he trips him, but dont have a go at "might have"

    Barnes is a dick though

    It is the inherent danger of the attempt that is the issue.

    No, he didn't make contact but it was a dangerous play just as a tackle in the air that doesn't result in injury is a dangerous play.

    Put it another way. What if everyone started diving feet first toward kickers to put them off? Do we want that in the game? As a kicker do you hold your ground and risk a kick to the ankle if it goes wrong or pull away?

    I just think it isn't, and never has been, part of the game and a penalty for dangerous play would stop a possible trend in its tracks.

    Also has the potential for a massive flare up between teams.

    That's a false equivalence. He didn't touch him, so it's dangerous like being close to a guy jumping in the air that might end up tipping him over, if you hit him, which you don't, so it doesn't. Should we stamp that out too?

    And he didn't go at him, he went across the front of him. You're being a bit shreeky about this.

    Upon thinking about it further, it kinda worked this time, but it's not actually a very smart or high percentage play. If TNW is a fraction quicker, he holds that ball, finds contact with the feet (okay takes a dive), and gets him binned for tripping. Or he kicks it a fraction higher, and takes Itoje right out of the game. If i was the coach i would probably tell him to try something else.

    But not because it's "dangerous"


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