Abortion



  • Never had to experience a choice regarding abortion but the mrs and I did suffer a miscarriage the first time she fell pregnant, twin boys. Blew us away, panic and amazement all at the same time
    Unfortunately we discovered we were carrying (well my wife was) monoamniotic twins, meaning they were sharing the same amniotic sac. Pretty rare and high risk of not surviving.
    Well at a 16 week scam our worse fears were realised when during the scan they couldn’t find any heartbeats. Both had passed away, likely due to being tangled in each other’s umbilical cord.
    Because my wife was so far along we had to birth them out, basically we suffered through the worse 2 days of our lives. Afterwards i got to view them, North Shore hospital was amazing. They were placed in a nice near basket.
    They were tiny but they looked like little people, features and limbs were easy to make out
    All I can say now it’s up to the person carrying their baby, im all for choice ( they will have to live with the decision for the rest of their life) but they have to realise at 12+ weeks and beyond that what they are carrying is not some little pea shaped formless life.



  • And btw I do not think abortion should be made illegal. Only because it wont work. It is impractical. I wish it could be enforced, but it wont be, you would just get back street abortions.
    What needs to happen is that it needs to up fornt and centre about what is involved, ALL the gruesome details, we need to bring abortion right into the mainstream, including what is involved in explicit and graphic detail and educate society and harsh level.
    You going to pay someone else to extinguish a human life, you should at least have the decency to have full knowledge of what you are paying to someone else to do to a human life.

    If you could create some sort of alternate reality where that babies adult self gets a chance to beg for its life.... how many abortions would happen? ZERO.



  • One other comment.

    If you have no first hand experience of this issue, be prepared to have your opinion altered in the face of reality.

    Life's like that



  • @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    And btw I do not think abortion should be made illegal. Only because it wont work. It is impractical. I wish it could be enforced, but it wont be, you would just get back street abortions.
    What needs to happen is that it needs to up fornt and centre about what is involved, ALL the gruesome details, we need to bring abortion right into the mainstream, including what is involved in explicit and graphic detail and educate society and harsh level.
    You going to pay someone else to extinguish a human life, you should at least have the decency to have full knowledge of what you are paying to someone else to do to a human life.

    Correct about the warts and all discussions.
    So many issues need this.
    The 3rd world deals with tragedies and realism far better because the issues aren't sanitized like in the west

    :::


  • Yeah once you read what actually goes down in an abortion and what a babies development is it is very hard to support the usual pro choice arguments. It is absolutely horrific to hear about and I worry that pregnant women aren't fully informed about what actually happens because those pushing and supporting it sure do not want to say it. Imagine finding it out after the fact? My friends who have had abortions still cannot talk about it without completely breaking down, I think its underestimated just how much psychological damage it does.

    I understand that women have the final say but I don't buy an argument that just because i have different shaped genitalia I can't have thoughts on the subject. It also is a real cop out of responsibility for blokes that is totally unfair, and I say that knowing full well a younger me would take the cop-out no worries at all.

    It genuinely concerns me the amount of women who support it right up until birth and think of it as some sort of womens liberation. In my mind if the baby is of an age when it can realistically live outside of the womb then killing it is absolutely murder against the most vulnerable. That is where I currently draw my line, morally its not great but I also genuinely believe an unwanted child can cause great damage to society as well. I think it was the original freakenomics book which made a case for abortion drastically reducing violent crime.

    Crowder has done a couple of 'Change my mind' videos about it.


  • Banned

    I've always been generally against abortion but I wonder what I would have done had I been in my teens or early 20s and knocked up a onenight stand or someone I had no real feelings for. Obviously my more mature self would say that I had to take responsibility and that I only had myself to blame. But there and then? I'm pretty sure I would have taken the "easy" option or advised her to. One thing's for sure, with 2 kids now I reckon it would be impossible not to think about the kid I had aborted. At the end of the day and regardless of inconvenience, effect on lifestyle/career etc. you're still terminating a life. That's the reality. I don't oppose a woman's right to choose and obviously there are some instances in which abortion may be the best option, but the consequences should not be understated.

    A good friend of mine just had his third kid. It was totally unplanned and has placed a huge strain on him both financially and in terms of looking after his 2 other very young children. The easy option would have been to abort and move on. But then the beautiful little boy I held the other day would not even exist. It's difficult to justify how you can terminate a life in that situation.

    Obviously it can be a complex topic and certainly one that is far more nuanced than "it's my body" vs "any form of abortion is a sin".



  • @siam said in Abortion:

    Finally, the woman gets the final say amd all involved must support that and be responsible for that- in my opinion

    Agreed. There's absolutely no reason why a pregnancy conceived in a mutually consenting act can't be discussed between the parties involved, but ultimately the person biologically tasked with carrying the pregnancy to term must get the final say what happens to their body. Anything else is the domain of toxic value systems replicated across the world in shitholes where women are worth less than cattle.

    I certainly can't stand the moralising arseholes who want to tell others what decisions they should make or how they should live their lives. A simple application of the golden rule applies.

    @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    If you could create some sort of alternate reality where that babies adult self gets a chance to beg for its life.... how many abortions would happen? ZERO.

    Next up: Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong get to argue why they shouldn't be aborted.



  • @antipodean yep final say is the woman's. Everything else is just posturing leading to the woman concerned deciding.

    Would anyone take the wishes of a boyfriend over their daughter's?



  • @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    When do others think that a human is created? It is a fundamental question in abortion, and one that must be answered if you are to have to have a credible opinion.

    My mind'snot made up but if we say a human is a person upon birth then we can simplify the ethics and legalities.

    We've got plenty of baby murders and atrocities without stuffing abortion in the same pigeon hole

    It would still be an assault on a woman's right if somebody willfully aborted a foetus against the woman's will then we could deal with that as a separate offence



  • @antipodean said in Abortion:

    @siam said in Abortion:

    Finally, the woman gets the final say amd all involved must support that and be responsible for that- in my opinion

    Agreed. There's absolutely no reason why a pregnancy conceived in a mutually consenting act can't be discussed between the parties involved, but ultimately the person biologically tasked with carrying the pregnancy to term must get the final say what happens to their body. Anything else is the domain of toxic value systems replicated across the world in shitholes where women are worth less than cattle.

    I certainly can't stand the moralising arseholes who want to tell others what decisions they should make or how they should live their lives. A simple application of the golden rule applies.

    @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    If you could create some sort of alternate reality where that babies adult self gets a chance to beg for its life.... how many abortions would happen? ZERO.

    Next up: Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong get to argue why they shouldn't be aborted.

    It doesn't end with carrying the child, the responsibility (in theory at least) never ends for the lifetime of that child



  • @siam said in Abortion:

    @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    When do others think that a human is created? It is a fundamental question in abortion, and one that must be answered if you are to have to have a credible opinion.

    My mind'snot made up but if we say a human is a person upon birth then we can simplify the ethics and legalities.

    We've got plenty of baby murders and atrocities without stuffing abortion in the same pigeon hole

    It would still be an assault on a woman's right if somebody willfully aborted a foetus against the woman's will then we could deal with that as a separate offence

    It would simplify the legalities, but not the ethics. Ethically the argument that makes most sense is that life begins at conception, but that would rule out abortion altogether.

    I'm not completely comfortable with either of those arguments. Aborting a baby at 8-9 months is nuts, and trying to make abortion completely illegal is impractical. So then you're left trying to draw some arbitrary line to determine when it is still "OK". Which is impossible.

    Technically it's illegal in NZ, but you can get access to an abortion with consent from a Doctor (I believe). I think some form of consent from a doctor or psychologist is a good idea, not to try and restrict a woman's rights, but to ensure she and the father have all of the support required for what is a horrific ordeal.

    There's no easy answer, and I don't think just saying "its a woman's choice" is much of an answer at all.



  • @no-quarter Are there restrictions on late term abortion? An abortion at 8-9 months is basically birth and I can't imagine that any doctor would do that. Funny how posters don't want opinions to be based on political leanings but this thread is in the politics section....



  • The laws in Australia are State based and hence have quite some variance. In NSW and QLD it's still technically a criminal offence, but with the usual exemptions.

    According to Wiki: Full-term abortions on demand are legal in the ACT as there are no gestational limits. In the NT it's illegal after 24 weeks unless needed to save the woman's life. Other States look to vary between those.



  • @antipodean Full term abortions? That must be a massive hippocratic dilemma for the doctors asked to perform a procedure like that. The mother would have to have a pretty damn good reason to have carried most of the term only to terminate. Most mums know they are pregnant inside 3 months. My personal opinion is that in most cases termination should be done inside the first 15-16 weeks (assuming someone discovered they were pregnant at 3 months they would have 1 month to get the procedure done), and any case that is later in the pregnancy should be held to a higher standard.
    Speaking as someone who works in healthcare, we have to be very careful from a medicolegal standpoint.
    Patients are fully informed of the nature of a procedure, the risks, benefits, potential complications etc. Just because it is ultimately the woman's choice does not mean that each case should and would receive a great deal of counselling before having such a procedure done. With regard to keeping babies and putting them up for adoption, is it still widespread practice in NZ? (honest question, I have no idea) There are lots of people that can't have children that would love to adopt I'd imagine



  • @canefan Only my conjecture, but I can't imagine it happens often. If at all. Certainly not something I could wrap my head around.

    But the ACT is among the most liberal of electorates. It is after all a government town. We have a rainbow roundabout.



  • I just don't consider a fertilised egg to be a human being. I don't consider destroying a fetilised egg to be murder. Murder is wrong because you take away an individual's right to experience life further. If choosing to have an abortion is wrong because you are taking away a zygote's right to exist, I don't see the difference between that and choosing not to have a baby at all.

    If you choose to have a baby, you are bringing a life into the world. If you have an abortion you are choosing to not bring that life into the world. If you choose not to get pregnant in the first place, you are also choosing not to bring that potential life into the world, it just isn't a specific life at that point.

    Obviously this all changes at what ever point you consider the zygote to be a human. Personally, I like the way abortion is administered in New Zealand.



  • @hydro11 said in Abortion:

    I just don't consider a fertilised egg to be a human being. I don't consider destroying a fetilised egg to be murder. Murder is wrong because you take away an individual's right to experience life further. If choosing to have an abortion is wrong because you are taking away a zygote's right to exist, I don't see the difference between that and choosing not to have a baby at all.

    If you choose to have a baby, you are bringing a life into the world. If you have an abortion you are choosing to not bring that life into the world. If you choose not to get pregnant in the first place, you are also choosing not to bring that potential life into the world, it just isn't a specific life at that point.

    Obviously this all changes at what ever point you consider the zygote to be a human. Personally, I like the way abortion is administered in New Zealand.

    Agree. Every jerk off is potential life, should we be forced to save sperm or be legislated against masterbating?

    Are woman on the pill murderers? How about ones that use the morning after pill?

    A fertilised egg is not a human being, it could be, but it’s not yet. Calling it murder is hyperbolic in the extreme, and just scientifically inaccurate.

    Now, the argument gets very tricky about where the line is, as modern medicine progresses to make babies viable earlier and earlier. (22 weeks?)

    For what it’s worth, I’m uncomfortable with any terminations after 12 weeks. But what about situations where the mother will die unless the pregnancy is terminated?

    Should both die?

    Easy to throw out emotive terms like murder, but it’s an extremely complicated topic.



  • And don't forget all the fertilised eggs that fail to implant.



  • A young guy that is a friend of the family knocked up his on/off girlfriend recently and they decided to terminate. It just happened and quite late on, 23 weeks I think. However it would have been done earlier but for the hoops and counselling they went through. I'm not saying that is wrong but it did lead to a later term abortion.

    Dad is a bit of a loser, struggles to keep a decent job down, too much booze and recreational use. Nice, decent bloke that cannot seem to grow up. Obviously has deep seated issues. The GF is a total wack-job too. Ms Cato No1 who is a close friend and pretty much pro-life feels it might be the right thing in this instance. She said "Imagine what a shit life that kid will have. Two parents that might actually care but can't do shit". Mind you she was virtually in tears saying it. BTW I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here.

    Like most have said on here, it's a very complicated situation and the likely outcome will be a compromise line in the sand that will please very few.



  • Well, the good news is that we aren't terminating - we're having a baby (oh god, I'm fucking terrified).

    But, it's only just become a real thing, because we waited for the test to see if our kid would have any problems (or kill the wife). That test can't be done (here at least) until you're at least 10 week's preggers, so if it has been positive, we wouldn't have been able to abort until after 12 weeks (probably about 15), which means here they have to actually induce delivery (seriously).

    So, abortion has been on our minds quite a bit lately, and all I can say is that we would have pulled the pin if there had been a problem. We've been through IVF a few times and couldn't get going, but even though this finally worked, we also wanted to make sure that if we do bring a life in to this world, that it has as much chance as possible to be successful. It's also of course because we are selfish, and given the choice between knowing that our kids has problems or not having one, we would chose no kid.

    I don't know what that makes me (and Mrs gt12), although I know some who would call me a (potential) murderer, but what i do know is that I'm happy with the choice we thankfully didn't have to make.

    So right now, we're just hoping for a healthy little baby, and I'm living with a truly out of control Mrs gt12...



  • @gt12 Congrats and best of luck!



  • @no-quarter They were the standard arguments.

    Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.

    So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.

    It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.

    as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.



  • @no-quarter said in Abortion:

    @siam said in Abortion:

    @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    When do others think that a human is created? It is a fundamental question in abortion, and one that must be answered if you are to have to have a credible opinion.

    My mind'snot made up but if we say a human is a person upon birth then we can simplify the ethics and legalities.

    We've got plenty of baby murders and atrocities without stuffing abortion in the same pigeon hole

    It would still be an assault on a woman's right if somebody willfully aborted a foetus against the woman's will then we could deal with that as a separate offence

    It would simplify the legalities, but not the ethics. Ethically the argument that makes most sense is that life begins at conception, but that would rule out abortion altogether.

    I'm not completely comfortable with either of those arguments. Aborting a baby at 8-9 months is nuts, and trying to make abortion completely illegal is impractical. So then you're left trying to draw some arbitrary line to determine when it is still "OK". Which is impossible.

    Technically it's illegal in NZ, but you can get access to an abortion with consent from a Doctor (I believe). I think some form of consent from a doctor or psychologist is a good idea, not to try and restrict a woman's rights, but to ensure she and the father have all of the support required for what is a horrific ordeal.

    There's no easy answer, and I don't think just saying "its a woman's choice" is much of an answer at all.

    Yeah it does simplify the ethics too.
    All laws influence ethical decisions - the law is very much a part of ethics in this day and age. Law rules what vast swathes of populations define as ethics:
    Murdering no good, but warfare ok
    Cannibis or pschedelics, no good but alcohol ok
    Total law abiding citizens get their ethics from laws

    A common consensus on what constitutes a human would change the perception and ethics of abortion

    But as @gt12 has poignantly revealed (and thanks mate, that was great to read) is that the abortion debate per se is going to pale into insignificance when the "check first" attitude or behavioural patterns become more widespread.

    We're back to accomodating personal choice which is where a lot of "ethical" dilemmas are going to end up at, ideally.



  • @majorrage said in Abortion:

    @no-quarter They were the standard arguments.

    Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.

    So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.

    It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.

    as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.

    This girl was similar, I wasn't at the school the previous year but when she got up to speak there was a collective "here we go again". Every speech or essay where you got to choose the topic she would pick abortion.

    I wonder how she went after she left school, I knew what happened to two other people in the interschool christian fellowship she belonged to. One was a a really hot blonde and all her pent up urges got the better of her and she started banging the father of the kid she used to babysit and the other ended up being a drug dealer in Otaki who sits at home with his feral mrs and kids playing playstation while his clients come and go. He was a really smart guy so I expected better than that of him , unfortunately his smarts only extended to finding out how much dope he could have in his house at one time and only be charged with possession not supply and he kept the rest in a car parked out front of his house which he insisted wasn't his premises. Which was all well and good till someone stole the car.



  • @gt12 said in Abortion:

    Well, the good news is that we aren't terminating - we're having a baby (oh god, I'm fucking terrified).

    But, it's only just become a real thing, because we waited for the test to see if our kid would have any problems (or kill the wife). That test can't be done (here at least) until you're at least 10 week's preggers, so if it has been positive, we wouldn't have been able to abort until after 12 weeks (probably about 15), which means here they have to actually induce delivery (seriously).

    So, abortion has been on our minds quite a bit lately, and all I can say is that we would have pulled the pin if there had been a problem. We've been through IVF a few times and couldn't get going, but even though this finally worked, we also wanted to make sure that if we do bring a life in to this world, that it has as much chance as possible to be successful. It's also of course because we are selfish, and given the choice between knowing that our kids has problems or not having one, we would chose no kid.

    I don't know what that makes me (and Mrs gt12), although I know some who would call me a (potential) murderer, but what i do know is that I'm happy with the choice we thankfully didn't have to make.

    So right now, we're just hoping for a healthy little baby, and I'm living with a truly out of control Mrs gt12...

    Congratulations mate. Did you have the skin fold on the neck test?



  • @jegga

    Nah, the blood test with genetics test.



  • @gt12 I feel you mate. We came to exactly the same position. We were in the high risk zone and talked it through at length before and while hapu. Getting the results was the trippiest bit till deliver day. All the best!! And congrats to you amd the missus



  • Although we have a wide range of opinions and experiences I think we're actually all on the same page in that abortion is definitely not just a black and white issue. There is a shitload of nuance to it and its incredibly disingenuous when activists and political parties try to denigrate it to a simple pro-life vs pro-choice argument. Imagine if the public discourse had this level of sophistication to it!

    Also massive congrats @gt12 that really is terrific news. All the best on the adventure!



  • It’s a heck of an issue to draw any sort of solid line on. I’ve swung back and forth on my thinking at times.

    My only definite is that I’m always troubled when people campaign for late term abortions, having had a niece and nephew born three months prem and having sat through two 20 week scans. Rightly or wrongly that made me wary of the push a decade ago to allow more late term abortions.



  • I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
    I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...

    Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?



  • @majorrage said in Abortion:

    @no-quarter They were the standard arguments.

    Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.

    So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.

    It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.

    as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.

    Your argument centres around edge cases which I am not sure should dictate the law. I guess it works pretty well in NZ, technically illegal but can be performed with the consent of a health professional - that covers the extreme cases you talk about without making it too readily available. Which is why Bill English wasn't keen to talk about rushing in any law changes like they have in the States.

    What I gather from this thread is:

    • Most are OK with early term abortion, when the baby is still in its very early stages of developing from a fertilised egg into a human being.
    • Most are uncomfortable with the idea of late term abortions, which are perfectly legal in some parts of the world, notably various states in the US where some truly horrifying stories have emerged from some of the Planned Parenthood centres.
    • Nobody is able to draw a line in the sand around when a fertilised egg becomes a human being with rights to live, but somewhere between 12 - 20 weeks probably makes sense.
    • Abortion needs to be looked at on a case by case basis, as there are so many variables in play one law will never fit all cases.

    So I'd say most of us are a nuanced with our opinions (imagine that) - not completely pro-choice or pro-life - and the law should attempt to reflect the reality of that.

    It's a good discussion and I appreciate hearing people's thoughts on this.



  • @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
    I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...

    Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?

    Yeah, which is why I posed the question:

    "if your partner was 3 months pregnant with your child which you both wanted to keep, and someone kicked her in the stomach repeatedly killing the baby inside, would you want them to be charged with assault or murder?"

    Nobody has attempted to answer that one yet...



  • Personally I would want them charged with murder.

    But on abortion I lean towards being able to terminate the pregnancy at this time.

    So at this stage I'm basically a selfish hypocrite.



  • @no-quarter said in Abortion:

    @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
    I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...

    Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?

    Yeah, which is why I posed the question:

    "if your partner was 3 months pregnant with your child which you both wanted to keep, and someone kicked her in the stomach repeatedly killing the baby inside, would you want them to be charged with assault or murder?"

    Nobody has attempted to answer that one yet...

    What people want in relation to their specific circumstances is for sound reasons immaterial to the application of the law. Because then instead of being about justice, it becomes retribution. Having said that I'd expect for a pregnancy that the couple wanted to take to term and have a child, they'd obviously want murder charges applied. It's a clear case of assault with the intent to terminate the gestation (or at least do enormous damage). The question then comes to the timeline; where would you draw the line? After the embryonic stage? 26 weeks?

    Time to introduce the slippery slope: What if the pregnancy wasn't obvious to the assailant, or unknown to both parties? What if medical practitioner had identified a high risk that the pregnancy wouldn't go full term?

    Personally, I don't have a problem with foetal homicide laws as long as the requirement is intent.



  • @majorrage said in Abortion:

    @no-quarter They were the standard arguments.

    Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.

    So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.

    It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.

    as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.

    It is black and white. Hence how there are laws around it. Your assertion that only one side holds a black and white view is false.
    All the black and white positions are stuck with anomalies. Some are nonsense, like the claim sperm is a human to be. Others like Tim's (in regards to fertalisation ) pose trickier conundrums.
    Some people get lifestyle abortions. Just not convenient to have a baby crimp the style, but the law still has definate black and white rules.



  • @baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.

    I got put through the grinder for making her question that.

    Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?

    Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.



  • @majorrage said in Abortion:

    @baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.

    I got put through the grinder for making her question that.

    Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?

    Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.

    A couple of things, majority and minority are heavily effected by knowledge. Make everyone watch a video of an abortion and see the aftermath, then let the majority decide. Force unborn humans who die in the womb in any way to always be called babies. Women are not only terminating a pregnancy, they are killing a baby.

    The reality is that the reality is never shown to the majority.



  • @baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:

    @majorrage said in Abortion:

    @baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.

    I got put through the grinder for making her question that.

    Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?

    Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.

    A couple of things, majority and minority are heavily effected by knowledge. Make everyone watch a video of an abortion and see the aftermath, then let the majority decide. Force unborn humans who die in the womb in any way to always be called babies. Women are not only terminating a pregnancy, they are killing a baby.

    The reality is that the reality is never shown to the majority.

    Without wishing to trivialise an important issue, we, the Western World (includes you at the very far West) are protected from many realities of life and death. Many would freak out being made to watch a sausage being made. We live in a cosseted world.



  • @baron-silas-greenback what a wierd approach.

    Outrage people by the ickyness of foetal waste and change the meaning of the word baby, so that you get your way.
    Straight out of the looney left playbook

    Force people to watch hip replacement, brain surgery and amputations too?



  • @siam said in Abortion:

    @baron-silas-greenback what a wierd approach.

    Outrage people by the ickyness of foetal waste and change the meaning of the word baby, so that you get your way.
    Straight out of the looney left playbook

    Force people to watch hip replacement, brain surgery and amputations too?

    Errrr ok.....


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