Russia nerve agent poisoning



  • @dogmeat said in British Politics:

    Maybe we should have a thread on Muslim politics and move this conversation there? Just saying because I don't feel qualified to contribute to the heated debate that has taken over this topic and while its clearly an important issue many of you feel passionate about it does seem to have derailed any conversation about any other issue in the UK today - or maybe I missed it in the last couple of hundred posts on Muslim / free speech / people getting banned etc.

    Just don't think this debate is really about UK politics any more

    I add my vote to that.
    I have tried to bring up the big topic of the moment and it has been lost in the noise (and I'm one of the noise makers)
    The Russia nerve agent thing is getting interesting on a few levels. The UK is using the situation to find out who it's friends really are and how far they will back them. I expect Australia and NZ will get dragged into this soon.
    Quite right that Putin should be called out though and this incident is the straw that broke the camels back in that regard.
    Easy to dismiss as sabre rattling that will quiet down when on the other side of the world but this has the potential to get quite messy. NATO knows it too.
    The allegations against Russia have also ramped up to accusations of stockpiling nerve agents outside of agreements.



  • @crucial Australia will back England to the hilt on this. There's a lot of ill will following the downing of MH17 let alone long standing geopolitical ties.



  • Oh, goodie, Nerve Agent Mania. Ye olde “smoking gun” WMD redux. Vlad is the New Saddam, honest. We know where they are, just like Bob Mueller knew who the mystery anthrax killer was. Only a terrorist sympathizer., or maybe a Frenchman, would dare dispute this.

    alt text



  • @crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    ...this has the potential to get quite messy. NATO knows it too.

    And yet another perfect reason to disband NATO.



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Oh, goodie, Nerve Agent Mania. Ye olde “smoking gun” WMD redux. Vlad is the New Saddam, honest. We know where they are, just like Bob Mueller knew who the mystery anthrax killer was. Only a terrorist sympathizer., or maybe a Frenchman, would dare dispute this.

    alt text

    Could you elaborate for the rest us who don’t understand what that post meant?



  • @crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Australia and NZ will get dragged into this soon.

    @antipodean said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @crucial Australia will back England to the hilt on this. There's a lot of ill will following the downing of MH17 let alone long standing geopolitical ties.

    Believe our Foreign Minister has already done the "stand with UK in condemning Russia" etc



  • @nta said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Australia and NZ will get dragged into this soon.

    @antipodean said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @crucial Australia will back England to the hilt on this. There's a lot of ill will following the downing of MH17 let alone long standing geopolitical ties.

    Believe our Foreign Minister has already done the "stand with UK in condemning Russia" etc

    I think the UK are looking for tangible support from friends.

    The interesting part of the game is the card playing. Putin has finally categorically denied involvement and gone further to say they have no stockpiles. UK have hinted that they have evidence that is a lie. Are they waiting for him to paint himself in a corner before they pull the evidence out?
    There are a few parallels with the WMD scenario though. Nice diversion for May's govt to promote to appear strong. The Brexit talks are only causing endless stumbling. Some groups looking for strong evidence before the shooting from the lip and being shouted down on any doubts they raise.



  • I don’t see much parallel with the wmds , they aren’t going to invade Russia or do much more than pout about it. Putin gives no fucks about human rights or what world thinks and just won another dodgy election.



  • @jegga said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    I don’t see much parallel with the wmds , they aren’t going to invade Russia or do much more than pout about it. Putin gives no fucks about human rights or what world thinks and just won another dodgy election.

    Not on the grounds of invasion but U.K. are trying hard to drag everyone into a Cold War.



  • @crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Not on the grounds of invasion but U.K. are trying hard to drag everyone into a Cold War.

    Already doing their best to isolate themselves from the rest of Europe, after all.



  • Some interesting moves going on in Europe with the EU sounding out sanctions and looking to step up against Putin while the UK led offensive is on. Poland finds themselves in the middle, not that they are pro-Russia in any way, just that the increased threat means they need to tow the EU line if the want friends at their back.



  • Required reading from the inimitable Raimondo, the guy who did more work to smoke out the WMD and anthrax hoaxes in real time, asking the obvious sorts of questions the MSM doesn’t have the brains or nerve to ask.

    Russian to Judgment: Who Poisoned Sergei Skripal?
    The all-purpose “Russia did it” explanation makes no sense

    https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2018/03/14/russian-to-judgment-who-poisoned-sergei-skripal/



  • At least @jegga had the sense to post this in the Conspiracy Theory thread

    @jegga said in Your favourite conspiracy theories:

    This is effectively the nz Labour Party blog, they claim that the poisoning in the Uk is a false flag.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/russian-to-judgment/

    What planet does that guy live on? A great example of someone throwing some bullshit out into the world hoping some unthinking morons pick it up and eat it.

    Have to love the claims about 'no evidence'. The evidence is strong enough that everyone viewing it has come to the conclusion that Russia's culpability is 'highly likely'.

    This type of evidence is always, at some stage, untested, hence the 'highly likely' conclusions rather than outright claim of proof.



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Required reading from the inimitable Raimondo, the guy who did more work to smoke out the WMD and anthrax hoaxes in real time, asking the obvious sorts of questions the MSM doesn’t have the brains or nerve to ask.

    Russian to Judgment: Who Poisoned Sergei Skripal?
    The all-purpose “Russia did it” explanation makes no sense

    https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2018/03/14/russian-to-judgment-who-poisoned-sergei-skripal/

    As above, Wrong thread IMO.

    Love how these blogging 'experts' form their considerable knowledge on a subject based on zero information + lots of speculation.



  • I’ve not been following this closely, what is the evidence Russia did this?

    Seems pretty reckless, isn’t this close to an act of war considering the cop was poisoned as well?



  • @kirwan you'd have to ask: if its all bullshit, why are several EU governments going with the "Russia Did It" version of events.

    If the agent was analysed and known to only be synthesised in certain areas of the world, you're still taking a large bet on your intelligence services not missing anything at all.



  • @nta said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @kirwan you'd have to ask: if its all bullshit, why are several EU governments going with the "Russia Did It" version of events.

    If the agent was analysed and known to only be synthesised in certain areas of the world, you're still taking a large bet on your intelligence services not missing anything at all.

    Same reason all those countries thought Iraq had WMDs, faulty or biased intelligence. We’ve seen those agencies have their own agendas, probably always have had.

    I was hoping for something a bit more specific, like Russia is the only ones with the nerve agent. Or the motive was clear, something like that.



  • @kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    I was hoping for something a bit more specific, like Russia is the only ones with the nerve agent. Or the motive was clear, something like that.

    From what I have heard and read Novichok is a nerve agent developed by Russia. The UK is saying either this was a state-sponsored assassination or Russia has allowed their own nerve agent to fall into other parties hands. There was also a former Russian scientist (living in the US, in exile I assume) who said he was involved in its development. Russia is denying they ever had such a nerve agent.

    The truth will lie somewhere in the middle.



  • @bovidae said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    I was hoping for something a bit more specific, like Russia is the only ones with the nerve agent. Or the motive was clear, something like that.

    From what I have heard and read Novichok is a nerve agent developed by Russia. The UK is saying either this was a state-sponsored assassination or Russia has allowed their own nerve agent to fall into other parties hands. There was also a former Russian scientist (living in the US, in exile I assume) who said he was involved in its development. Russia is denying they ever had such a nerve agent.

    The truth will lie somewhere in the middle.

    That’s more like it. So we have circumstantial evidence, that leans towards Russia. And we have them publicly lying about the nerve agent.

    With all the sabre rattling going on, I hope they have more than that behind the scenes.



  • @kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    I’ve not been following this closely, what is the evidence Russia did this?

    Seems pretty reckless, isn’t this close to an act of war considering the cop was poisoned as well?

    If the Russian State did it, then it seems about on par with the Rainbow Warrior to me.

    But, so far, I've seen no solid evidence other than that the Russians are probably the only people who manufactured that nerve agent. But then who knows who might have got hold of it. Could be some Russian guy who Skripal slept with his wife?

    If the Russians wanted him dead they could have executed him ten years ago.

    Basically if Putin did it, it seems like he'd have to be making a major "fuck you" statement (since he could have just put a bullet in Skripal's head).

    I fail to see the motive and I can't see that the Brits are presenting any substantive evidence. Unless they know more than they're saying, the response doesn't seem particularly rational, Captain! 🙂

    These guys seem to be making a reasonable summation.

    https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/skripal-west-escalates-where-proof



  • @chris-b said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    I’ve not been following this closely, what is the evidence Russia did this?

    Seems pretty reckless, isn’t this close to an act of war considering the cop was poisoned as well?

    If the Russian State did it, then it seems about on par with the Rainbow Warrior to me.

    But, so far, I've seen no solid evidence other than that the Russians are probably the only people who manufactured that nerve agent. But then who knows who might have got hold of it. Could be some Russian guy who Skripal slept with his wife?

    If the Russians wanted him dead they could have executed him ten years ago.

    Basically if Putin did it, it seems like he'd have to be making a major "fuck you" statement (since he could have just put a bullet in Skripal's head).

    I fail to see the motive and I can't see that the Brits are presenting any substantive evidence. Unless they know more than they're saying, the response doesn't seem particularly rational, Captain! 🙂

    These guys seem to be making a reasonable summation.

    https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/skripal-west-escalates-where-proof

    Interesting read. He makes some good points. Thanks.



  • @catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @chris-b said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    I’ve not been following this closely, what is the evidence Russia did this?

    Seems pretty reckless, isn’t this close to an act of war considering the cop was poisoned as well?

    If the Russian State did it, then it seems about on par with the Rainbow Warrior to me.

    But, so far, I've seen no solid evidence other than that the Russians are probably the only people who manufactured that nerve agent. But then who knows who might have got hold of it. Could be some Russian guy who Skripal slept with his wife?

    If the Russians wanted him dead they could have executed him ten years ago.

    Basically if Putin did it, it seems like he'd have to be making a major "fuck you" statement (since he could have just put a bullet in Skripal's head).

    I fail to see the motive and I can't see that the Brits are presenting any substantive evidence. Unless they know more than they're saying, the response doesn't seem particularly rational, Captain! 🙂

    These guys seem to be making a reasonable summation.

    https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/skripal-west-escalates-where-proof

    Interesting read. He makes some good points. Thanks.

    I understand the call for a higher level of public evidence, but that shouldn't also mean an assumption of deliberate misinterpretation (like WMDs) or an assumption that the evidence is weak.
    I would also hope that a more detailed explanation comes out once the evidence gathering has completed and the full story is carefully put together.
    However, the point these articles tend to skip is that those parties that have had the base evidence shared with them have all reached the same conclusion after decent consideration. There was no knee jerk turfing out of Russian diplomats by the US or Australia, they assessed and ratified the evidence the U.K. provided before also deciding a high level of likelihood and acting.
    As we also know in the internet age, releasing an incomplete story to the public is asking for massive questioning from uninformed but influential angles and opens opportunities for all sorts of mischievous takes to get clicks, sales and viewers.
    I may yet change my mind should a full verifiable story not emerge, but at this stage am happy to wait and watch.

    As for 'why would Putin do this?'. Simplest explanation is that he didn't do so directly. Next best is that in foreign policy he is a disrupter.



  • @crucial Yeah - I'm solidly in the "wait and watch" camp.

    We also cannot discount the possibility that the politicians are fuckwits! 🙂



  • @crucial I'm still in the pretty sure Russia did it camp for two reasons really. 1. It fits their MO. 2. As you say, the number of other parties that have come out in full support, which tends to lend credence.

    The article I feel made some good points in that the WMD stuff has eroded trust in our Governments and quite possibly security services and now we find ourselves more questioning than perhaps we were.



  • I could buy in to the whole thing being an opportunity grasped as a diversionary tactic by May except it probably couldn't have come at a worse time for her as it completely overshadowed the announcement of some real progress on Brexit.



  • There have also been a number of suspicious deaths of anti-Putin Russian expats living in the UK. This can't be a coincidence either.



  • Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.

    Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy

    [...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]

    Just Imagine, redux.

    (There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.

    Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy

    [...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]

    Just Imagine, redux.

    (There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)

    That report says it was very likely the work of a state actor because of the sophistication. Who do you think did it?



  • @jegga Monaco probbly



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.

    Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy

    [...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]

    Just Imagine, redux.

    (There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)

    No



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.

    Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy

    [...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]

    Just Imagine, redux.

    (There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)

    Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.



  • @catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.

    Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy

    [...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]

    Just Imagine, redux.

    (There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)

    Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.

    Same report in the morning Metro for all the London commuters as well. That blackout really isn't working well is it?



  • @crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.

    Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy

    [...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]

    Just Imagine, redux.

    (There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)

    Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.

    Same report in the morning Metro for all the London commuters as well. That blackout really isn't working well is it?

    Perhaps we should ask the Russians. Now they know how to do a media blackout.



  • @catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.

    Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy

    [...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]

    Just Imagine, redux.

    (There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)

    Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.

    Same report in the morning Metro for all the London commuters as well. That blackout really isn't working well is it?

    Perhaps we should ask the Russians. Now they know how to do a media blackout.

    Are they the same as those 'Rooskies'?
    Dastardly bunch.



  • @jegga said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    That report says it was very likely the work of a state actor because of the sophistication. Who do you think did it?

    I don’t have to think. Neither do you. All ya gotta do is “Just Imagine,” like in the Willy Wonka movie. Tell yourself whatever comforts you, especially if it’s authoritative, something like, “My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence.””

    alt text

    Mmmmmm, tartar-sauce.

    Look, if governments and intel experts and mass media are forever stamping the ground insisting on “real news” and “truth,” mightn’t it follow that they get their shit together before finger-pointing and provoking hostilities with a nuclear adversary? No, I guess it doesn’t. Thank God for Our Grown-Ups. And amnesia.



  • Actually getting reported in American media, I think I might faint.

    CNN: UK Government deletes tweet about Russian spy’s poisoning

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/04/europe/salisbury-uk-government-deleted-tweet-intl/index.html

    And amazingly — just like Lazarus!! — the spy is resurrected and walking under own strength! That’s some deadly nerve agent alright, thank God for His divine intervention. Or, maybe, y’know, if it really was a “sophisticated state actor,” maybe a gun would have been a fuck of a lot easier, but then, maybe I watched too many James Bond movies, and don’t realize the KGB is trying to show-up the CIA and MI6 with their own exotic spy-craft, look, our exploding cigars actually work, see!!



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    Actually getting reported in American media, I think I might faint.

    CNN: UK Government deletes tweet about Russian spy’s poisoning

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/04/europe/salisbury-uk-government-deleted-tweet-intl/index.html

    And amazingly — just like Lazarus!! — the spy is resurrected and walking under own strength! That’s some deadly nerve agent alright, thank God for His divine intervention. Or, maybe, y’know, if it really was a “sophisticated state actor,” maybe a gun would have been a fuck of a lot easier, but then, maybe I watched too many James Bond movies, and don’t realize the KGB is trying to show-up the CIA and MI6 with their own exotic spy-craft, look, our exploding cigars actually work, see!!

    Resurrected? Walking? While in a coma?



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @jegga said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    That report says it was very likely the work of a state actor because of the sophistication. Who do you think did it?

    I don’t have to think. Neither do you. All ya gotta do is “Just Imagine,” like in the Willy Wonka movie. Tell yourself whatever comforts you, especially if it’s authoritative, something like, “My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence.””

    alt text

    Mmmmmm, tartar-sauce.

    Look, if governments and intel experts and mass media are forever stamping the ground insisting on “real news” and “truth,” mightn’t it follow that they get their shit together before finger-pointing and provoking hostilities with a nuclear adversary? No, I guess it doesn’t. Thank God for Our Grown-Ups. And amnesia.

    I have a question for you. It concerns some vague parallels between two significant political situations currently happening. There is the nerve agent thing and then there is the potential US/China trade war.

    With the nerve agent situation there is the build up of a pretty decent case against Russia - it is the nerve toxin that they made and stockpiled (although this lot not proven definitely to be Russian). The toxin was used against a Russian double agent. Putin has stated that traitors should be killed (apparently, although I have not seen this). This has Russian/Soviet MO all over it. Security agencies have stated from their investigations that it is highly likely to have been a Russian attack. - So. Not conclusive but a pretty good case.

    The US/China trade war issue is as a result of the US imposing trade tariffs on certain Chinese goods due to China's "long running intellectual property theft". No evidence supplied. So. Not conclusive and no real attempt to back this up with anything firm.

    So, my question is this. Why is it you are all over the former, implying conspiracy, lying, cover ups and media blackouts and you have nothing to say on the latter which has much less published evidence and in reality is likely to be much more far reaching in its effects?

    Please note I'm not saying the US don't have the intel to support their assertions. It just interests me why your happy to dis-believe the one and not the other.



  • @salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    @jegga said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:

    That report says it was very likely the work of a state actor because of the sophistication. Who do you think did it?

    I don’t have to think. Neither do you. All ya gotta do is “Just Imagine,” like in the Willy Wonka movie. Tell yourself whatever comforts you, especially if it’s authoritative, something like, “My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence.””

    alt text

    Mmmmmm, tartar-sauce.

    Look, if governments and intel experts and mass media are forever stamping the ground insisting on “real news” and “truth,” mightn’t it follow that they get their shit together before finger-pointing and provoking hostilities with a nuclear adversary? No, I guess it doesn’t. Thank God for Our Grown-Ups. And amnesia.

    You could have said , “Russia “ or “ I don’t know” . I guess the Powell pic was another attempt to bring WMDs into the conversation again even though they have no relevance. No one is going to invade Russia because former spies are turning up dead.

    It’s more likely to be Russia than anyone else, will anything of consequence happen to Russia as s result? I doubt it but thd message to other spies has been sent, betray us and look forward to an agonising death.




Log in to reply