NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate



  • Hi Ladies/Lads

    Have somehow found myself jumping on an Irish based rugby chat show which runs through Facebook.

    I started talking to them because of the Raeburn Shield but they are a good bunch and found they were good for a wider discussion.

    The topic I'm talking about with them (and where your knowledge /Opinions/Bullshit ) would be helpful to me and anybody tuning is taking place this week and is based on NH Vs SH.

    The open questions from them are:
    Northern v Southern Hemisphere Rugby: Which is best, Super Rugby OR Pro 14 / Premiership / Top 14 and what should the future hold?

    My more specific thoughts are:

    Is South Africa actually improving and can they get past the politics to keep their players and grow their game?

    Is Australia done? Can they compete with the other stronger domestic sports to have enough talent to get back properly to the top?

    Can NZ maintain dominance and how long can we sustain our second tier dissapearing earlier and earlier?(with the odd top player going too)

    Has the cutting of teams fixed Super Rugby?

    Love the derbies but does the format actually work nowadays with the contrived finals set-up?

    Are England and France headed for trouble with little to no control over their domestic leagues and the pipeline getting filled with average foreign players?

    That's just me vomiting some thoughts out but though you lot would be able to help me as it is an interesting topic.



  • Oh and the crew I am talking to are "3 Blokes, a ball and BOD"



  • Can you ask BOD what it’s like to be dropped twice by kiwis in a lions series?



  • I'm not remotely interested in his thread unless someone looks at things from a Scots perspective.



  • @mn5 said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    I'm not remotely interested in his thread unless someone looks at things from a Scots perspective.

    alt text

    There you go



  • @mariner4life said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @mn5 said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    I'm not remotely interested in his thread unless someone looks at things from a Scots perspective.

    alt text

    There you go

    I said Scots not Italian....



  • @jegga

    I may have already reference Tana's awesome tackling style to throw some spice in.

    Though funnily enough that incident felt like a real issue that people have not been able to move past for years (especially living over here) never thought it was intentional just a mixture of bad tackling / rucking by pumped up fellas and a bit of bad luck.



  • @davesofthunder said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @jegga

    I may have already reference Tana's awesome tackling style to throw some spice in.

    Though funnily enough that incident felt like a real issue that people have not been able to move past for years (especially living over here) never thought it was intentional just a mixture of bad tackling / rucking by pumped up fellas and a bit of bad luck.

    I stood up for Tana and Kev on a forum page that I eventually got kicked out of ( NH folk can be such Snowflakes ) but I have to admit viewing it years later it does look kinda bad.

    Still, it was BOD and he's a cock so is it really that big a deal?



  • Oh defintitely a very bad clean out and a terrible look (especially viewed today when we have become used to much stricter rules around that style of tackle/cleanout)

    I have just been told it was intentional/a plan so many times and don't buy it all.

    BOD was one of the best players around for a long time but it certainly soured the relationship for NZ fans with hime ultimately being a bit of a sook.



  • @davesofthunder said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    The rich sugar daddies of NH rugby are slowly but surely dragging down SH rugby. It may not happen imminently, but in 20 years time I suspect our domestic rugby will look a fair bit like domestic soccer in Brazil - and the All Blacks, Springboks and Wallabies will be commensurately weakened - unless the IRB shows some balls (Brett Gosper!!!) and steps in enforce quotas on the numbers of foreign players allowed to be fielded by club teams and a salary cap on overseas purchases.

    There's doubtless plenty of people in the NH that would think this is a great thing, but Eddie Dawkins made a great comment last night after leading the Mens' kilo cycling for the whole event only to be pipped for the gold by the final rider (an Australian). The interviewer asked him whether he could watch the last rider and what he was thinking and Dawkins said (paraphrase), "I was cheering him on to do his very best - I don't want to win because something goes wrong for someone else, I want to win because I'm the best on the day - and today I wasn't".



  • https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/commonwealth-games/want-him-put-his-body-line-humble-eddie-dawkins-congrats-aussie-rival-winning-gold

    COMMONWEALTH GAMES

    'I want him to put his body on the line' - Humble Eddie Dawkins congrats Aussie rival on winning gold
    11:46pmShare Source:1 NEWS
    New Zealand cycling silver medallist Eddie Dawkins patted his Aussie rival Matt Glaetzer on the back after his gold medal ride, saying he was happy to see the better man win and claim a new Commonwealth Games record in Brisbane.

    Dawkins had to settle for silver after Aussie rider Matt Glaetzer claimed first with a time of 59.340 seconds in the men's 1000m time trial.
    Source: TVNZ | Commonwealth Games
    Dawkins' new 1000m time trial Games record was short lived after Glaetzer rode and bettered his time with a sensational 59.340 second ride.

    Dawkins was pipped by Aussie rival Matt Glaetzer for first place.
    Source: TVNZ | Commonwealth Games
    "I cheer him (Glaetzer) all the way to the finish line because I want to see him do the best result," said Dawkins.

    Advertisement
    Here's the Dawkins interview - it's a great attitude!

    COMMONWEALTH GAMES

    'I want him to put his body on the line' - Humble Eddie Dawkins congrats Aussie rival on winning gold
    11:46pmShare Source:1 NEWS
    New Zealand cycling silver medallist Eddie Dawkins patted his Aussie rival Matt Glaetzer on the back after his gold medal ride, saying he was happy to see the better man win and claim a new Commonwealth Games record in Brisbane.

    Dawkins had to settle for silver after Aussie rider Matt Glaetzer claimed first with a time of 59.340 seconds in the men's 1000m time trial.
    Source: TVNZ | Commonwealth Games
    Dawkins' new 1000m time trial Games record was short lived after Glaetzer rode and bettered his time with a sensational 59.340 second ride.

    Dawkins was pipped by Aussie rival Matt Glaetzer for first place.
    Source: TVNZ | Commonwealth Games



  • The really sad thing is SR teams, ITM teams are all/mostly in the black. Premiership and French teams are massively in debt. So they are spending money they don't have to steal our players

    For Ex Worcester "...their financial survival is a much bigger concern after revealing a pre-tax loss of £8.1m for the 2016-17 season... Losses for the 12 months up to 30 June 2017 came after the club reported a pre-tax profit of £14.3m a year before – a situation created by club’s owners writing off loans of more than £20.4m."

    They just re-signed Hourgaard for who knows how much as an outside salary cap special. They are a nothing team, yet still manage to blow all that money on salaries



  • @machpants said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    The really sad thing is SR teams, ITM teams are all/mostly in the black. Premiership and French teams are massively in debt. So they are spending money they don't have to steal our players

    Excellent point worth debating/discussing I think. Also, because the various NZ rugby unions are non-profits (incorporated societies to be specific), their financial statements are publicly available because they have to be sent to the Societies Office annually, which means the financial statements/reports are available on the Societies Office website. That level of public scrutiny and accountability really forces a certain level of financial responsibility and prudence that basically ensures sustainability of the various NZ competitions and teams (even the Super teams are effectively in there because they are owned by rugby unions, so at least their net results are included in the accounts).



  • @chris-b said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @davesofthunder said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    The rich sugar daddies of NH rugby are slowly but surely dragging down SH rugby. It may not happen imminently, but in 20 years time I suspect our domestic rugby will look a fair bit like domestic soccer in Brazil - and the All Blacks, Springboks and Wallabies will be commensurately weakened - unless the IRB shows some balls (Brett Gosper!!!) and steps in enforce quotas on the numbers of foreign players allowed to be fielded by club teams and a salary cap on overseas purchases.

    There's doubtless plenty of people in the NH that would think this is a great thing, but Eddie Dawkins made a great comment last night after leading the Mens' kilo cycling for the whole event only to be pipped for the gold by the final rider (an Australian). The interviewer asked him whether he could watch the last rider and what he was thinking and Dawkins said (paraphrase), "I was cheering him on to do his very best - I don't want to win because something goes wrong for someone else, I want to win because I'm the best on the day - and today I wasn't".

    France is already moving in that direction without World Rugby intervention.

    Big spending days over for settled French Top 14

    In addition to financial controls, each French club must ensure that 55 percent of their players have spent three seasons at a French youth academy before the age of 21 or been registered with the French rugby federation (FFR) for at least five years before turning 23.
    
    In effect that limits the import of foreign players, with officials hoping that the national team will eventually benefit from home-grown talent being given a chance to mature.
    

    .

    Hosts of foreign rugby players in French Top 14 could be looking for new clubs

    French sides are looking to off load foreign players as the organisers of the Top 14 look to increase the number of French qualified players.
    
    English winger David Strettle was connected with an unlikely move to Bristol Rugby next summer earlier this year and rumours have resurfaced as the former Saracens wing revealed his future is still not decided.
    
    Talking to The Rugby Paper , the 35-year-old former England man explained: “They’ve changed the rules in France where clubs have to field a certain amount of French players, but teams haven’t been meeting them and are happy to pay the fines.
    
    "They are changing it though and there’ll be points deductions instead in the future, so that’s concentrated people’s minds and there’s a scramble going on next season for more French qualified players.
    


  • @stargazer while I am sure French people love seeing some of these top ex-ABs/Saffas/Wobblies at thier clubs, surely they'd prefer French rugby to be stronger and then the top French stars at thier club competing against other top French players.



  • For those of you who can read French and are interested in the changes taking place in the number of academy (JIFF) players and foreigners in French rugby from next season, here is the decision of the LNR Committee.

    That decision includes strengthening of the control of compliance with, and harsher sanctions in case of breach of, salary caps.



  • @stargazer said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @chris-b said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @davesofthunder said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    The rich sugar daddies of NH rugby are slowly but surely dragging down SH rugby. It may not happen imminently, but in 20 years time I suspect our domestic rugby will look a fair bit like domestic soccer in Brazil - and the All Blacks, Springboks and Wallabies will be commensurately weakened - unless the IRB shows some balls (Brett Gosper!!!) and steps in enforce quotas on the numbers of foreign players allowed to be fielded by club teams and a salary cap on overseas purchases.

    There's doubtless plenty of people in the NH that would think this is a great thing, but Eddie Dawkins made a great comment last night after leading the Mens' kilo cycling for the whole event only to be pipped for the gold by the final rider (an Australian). The interviewer asked him whether he could watch the last rider and what he was thinking and Dawkins said (paraphrase), "I was cheering him on to do his very best - I don't want to win because something goes wrong for someone else, I want to win because I'm the best on the day - and today I wasn't".

    France is already moving in that direction without World Rugby intervention.

    Big spending days over for settled French Top 14

    In addition to financial controls, each French club must ensure that 55 percent of their players have spent three seasons at a French youth academy before the age of 21 or been registered with the French rugby federation (FFR) for at least five years before turning 23.
    
    In effect that limits the import of foreign players, with officials hoping that the national team will eventually benefit from home-grown talent being given a chance to mature.
    

    .

    Hosts of foreign rugby players in French Top 14 could be looking for new clubs

    French sides are looking to off load foreign players as the organisers of the Top 14 look to increase the number of French qualified players.
    
    English winger David Strettle was connected with an unlikely move to Bristol Rugby next summer earlier this year and rumours have resurfaced as the former Saracens wing revealed his future is still not decided.
    
    Talking to The Rugby Paper , the 35-year-old former England man explained: “They’ve changed the rules in France where clubs have to field a certain amount of French players, but teams haven’t been meeting them and are happy to pay the fines.
    
    "They are changing it though and there’ll be points deductions instead in the future, so that’s concentrated people’s minds and there’s a scramble going on next season for more French qualified players.
    

    What a massively significant posts. Thanks.



  • @stargazer said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    In addition to financial controls, each French club must ensure that 55 percent of their players have spent three seasons at a French youth academy before the age of 21 or been registered with the French rugby federation (FFR) for at least five years before turning 23.

    We can see why French clubs have opened academies actually in the islands, registering them as French players, and taking them in their early teens>

    "
    Taken from/By: FBC News
    Report by: Jale Daucakacaka

    French Top 14 rugby club Brive will set up a rugby academy at Ratu Navula College.

    The announcement was made yesterday after the club had secured the official approval from local authorities.

    Brive rugby coach Nicholas Godignon says the academy, which will be opened in February next year, will see students exposed to elite training programs as well as learn the French language and culture.

    “We want to create some educated, rugby players. We want to provide many ways to develop the ways to become a professional player in a professional environment. But we also want to develop education too as well as the French culture.”

    Godignon says Ratu Navula College as the location for their academy after earlier scouting schools in the country.

    Brive currently has four Fijian players within its ranks; Sisa Koyamaibole, Dominiko Waqaniburotu, Malakai Radikedike and former national 7s rep Benito Masilevu."



  • @machpants said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @stargazer said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    In addition to financial controls, each French club must ensure that 55 percent of their players have spent three seasons at a French youth academy before the age of 21 or been registered with the French rugby federation (FFR) for at least five years before turning 23.

    We can see why French clubs have opened academies actually in the islands, registering them as French players, and taking them in their early teens>

    "
    Taken from/By: FBC News
    Report by: Jale Daucakacaka

    French Top 14 rugby club Brive will set up a rugby academy at Ratu Navula College.

    The announcement was made yesterday after the club had secured the official approval from local authorities.

    Brive rugby coach Nicholas Godignon says the academy, which will be opened in February next year, will see students exposed to elite training programs as well as learn the French language and culture.

    “We want to create some educated, rugby players. We want to provide many ways to develop the ways to become a professional player in a professional environment. But we also want to develop education too as well as the French culture.”

    Godignon says Ratu Navula College as the location for their academy after earlier scouting schools in the country.

    Brive currently has four Fijian players within its ranks; Sisa Koyamaibole, Dominiko Waqaniburotu, Malakai Radikedike and former national 7s rep Benito Masilevu."

    That's a retrograde step IMO but it does highlight that for every rule brought in there is someone looking for a loophole.



  • @stargazer said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    "They are changing it though and there’ll be points deductions instead in the future, so that’s concentrated people’s minds and there’s a scramble going on next season for more French qualified players.

    That's going to be a simple, yet effective method of ensuring compliance.



  • @godder said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @machpants said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    The really sad thing is SR teams, ITM teams are all/mostly in the black. Premiership and French teams are massively in debt. So they are spending money they don't have to steal our players

    Excellent point worth debating/discussing I think. Also, because the various NZ rugby unions are non-profits (incorporated societies to be specific), their financial statements are publicly available because they have to be sent to the Societies Office annually, which means the financial statements/reports are available on the Societies Office website. That level of public scrutiny and accountability really forces a certain level of financial responsibility and prudence that basically ensures sustainability of the various NZ competitions and teams (even the Super teams are effectively in there because they are owned by rugby unions, so at least their net results are included in the accounts).

    Don't forget that it is also in the NZRU directives that participation in NPC level rugby has expectations around solvency and %'s of budget spent on salaries. It is quite controlled.



  • @machpants

    Yep, that is super frustrating. It's not really even commercial success driving it but rich sugar daddies.

    Hard to begrudge the players a good payday but it is frustrating seeing players dragged away from the international game like they are.



  • @machpants

    Jeez, it's not subtle is it



  • @davesofthunder said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    @machpants

    Jeez, it's not subtle is it

    Nearly all the 6N unions have quotas on foreign players in their squads. Ireland has the lowest and hasn’t filled them for last two seasons.



  • Ireland do seem to have shifted their approach a little but I still can't say I am comfortable with their "project player" approach.

    Ultimately there are two separate issues which are about club and international.

    From my perspective, I love the international game and think it's best when someone has a legitimate tie to the country they represent not just where they got a job.

    I have lived IN England for 16 years have an English wife and my mother was born here (but she moved to NZ when 5 so not really a pom at All) but the idea of playing for England would be totally out of the question unless I wanted to get paid. It just isnt the team I feel attached to.

    On clubs I guess it depends whether you care about the international game but there is a risk that the rich boy dick swinging just provides a lop sided funding advantage which just slowly grinds away at the rest of the game.

    It will be an interesting few years ahead as it is grappled with.

    The example of setting up academies abroad above shows that for every rule there is a hunt for loopholes soon suspect it will not be simple.



  • @davesofthunder said in NH Vs SH - Help me out on the big debate:

    Ireland do seem to have shifted their approach a little but I still can't say I am comfortable with their "project player" approach.

    Ultimately there are two separate issues which are about club and international.

    From my perspective, I love the international game and think it's best when someone has a legitimate tie to the country they represent not just where they got a job.

    I have lived IN England for 16 years have an English wife and my mother was born here (but she moved to NZ when 5 so not really a pom at All) but the idea of playing for England would be totally out of the question unless I wanted to get paid. It just isnt the team I feel attached to.

    On clubs I guess it depends whether you care about the international game but there is a risk that the rich boy dick swinging just provides a lop sided funding advantage which just slowly grinds away at the rest of the game.

    It will be an interesting few years ahead as it is grappled with.

    The example of setting up academies abroad above shows that for every rule there is a hunt for loopholes soon suspect it will not be simple.

    When you say with their project player approach do you mean contracting uncapped players generally as opposed to capped ones? Because that's all a supposed project player is - an uncapped player. And with the increased residency rule taking effect from beginning of this year, that's not going to be a route pursued much, instead the focus has shifted to already qualified players and academy development/ investment - across Irl, Ita, Wal, Sco.

    In fact, I think the argument should be less about NH v SH and more about union owners vs club owners because that's where the debate really is around playing structures, league, relegation, squad sizes, monies, etc.

    The English rugby media is full of commentary and debates about whether the English Premiership should follow the Irish model of key player contracting (they started doing it in 2001), and changing max game time limits (Ireland started their 25 game limit in 2004). They are also debating about ring fencing/no relegation, expanding to 14 teams, and possibly having 2 conferences - akin to following a similar structure to the PRO14.

    Alternatively, expanding to 14 teams could lead to the English Premiership wanting to reduce European Champions Cup again to possibly 16 or 12 teams to allow for the extra games that a 14-team league would bring. European games have limits on the number of Australasian players (2) that can play in a match. More domestic club games, and less European games might drive demand for Aus/NZ players further to expand squads.

    The IRFU started investing in its domestic pathway about 4 years ago, and it's starting to bear fruit with younger and more players merging onto club and test scene. With 80 players across the four academies, the need for foreign players in squads has dropped. Their 2012 Guidelines stated 4 NIE (capped) players and 1 nominated special project player NIQ who could become qualified. And only one per playing position. 15 in total. Those apply to Munster, Leinster and Ulster. That's 12 foreign capped players allowed but there's only 4 currently contracted. Wales, Scotland and Italy have been pursuing similar routes in recent years, with varying effects.

    Ironically, the rising cost of foreign capped salaries (driven by England and France) has led to mainly uncapped players being contracted across Ireland, Italy, Wales and Scotland. But these are reducing year on year. Connacht and Edinburgh are having large clear outs at season end - a good few of them being SH players as well as some academy players being released. Currently, the player transfer list for the PRO14 teams (excl Cheetahs and Kings) is

    Out of PRO14: 8 NZ, 4 Wales, 2 Aus, 1 Fiji, 2 SA, 2 Sam, 2 Eng, 1 Moldova,, 2 Scot, 2 Irish
    plus 6 Irish, 5 Welsh, 10 Scottish players retiring/released.

    In to PRO14: 3 Italian, 11 Irish, 10 Welsh, 4 Scottish, 4 English, 2 Australian, 2 NZ, 2 SA, 1 Samoa, 1 Arg, 1 Canada, 1 Namibia, which includes new domestic academy players coming in and domestic players moving between teams.

    This will change further in May as more decisions get made about players/contracts.

    Edit: Correction. The Premiership has the same limit as PRO14 on numbers of Australasian players (2) in domestic club games so there wouldn’t necessarily be increased demand.



  • A project player is exactly what you say which is an uncapped player from another nation that could become "Irish"

    I don't agree that is a positive thing to have formalised however as you say it is in theory a reducing issue.

    You may have hit he nail on the head with a looming battle around Club Vs Union.

    I fear England and France are already going to be in a tough position to get the balance but will interesting to see how they go about it.

    Of course if they do limit "English" players time a SH player who has no international commitments becomes all the more enticing.

    I have to say though I really appreciate the knowledge you bring to this. I clearly don't have the level of familiarity with the whole area you do which is bloody good to read (Not being sarcastic here. Genuine thoughts)



  • I only just clocked that this season the Pro 14 is using almost the exact same conference format as Super 15.

    Oh and the Southern Kings remain remarkably shit.



  • For anyone interested this is the discussion panel on the SH Vs NH topic.

    Have to say I really enjoyed it with a good relaxed chat style and interesting topics.


Log in to reply