Indigenous people of the Chatham islands



  • I guess this fits here.

    What are peoples thoughts on the genocide and slavery undertaken on the indigenous people of the Chatham islands?

    I have a social activist cousin..and contributor to spinoff..who holds myself and all people of a particular skin pigment personally responsible for the atlantic slave trade and by extension all colonial oppression of Maori. In his mind this particular snippet of history is complete fiction..fair enough I suppose because if it wasn't that same incredible logic garnered from a couple years at Vic uni could very well be used against him.

    That being said I have only read a small amount about this particular event.

    edit - forgot the link:
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/12/taranaki-iwi-fights-to-keep-moriori-land-it-invaded.html



  • @Rembrandt said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    I guess this fits here.

    I split this into a new thread.. seems like a new conversation



  • @Rembrandt said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    In his mind this particular snippet of history is complete fiction

    There was a bullshit version of Moriori history that older people were taught. That they were in NZ before the Maori etc etc.

    That myth probably makes it easier for some people to dismiss anything related to the Moriori



  • @Duluth Yeah I remember that going around school as a youngster, most likely the cause of the mass rejection of anything Moriori related.

    I find it interesting that the ultimately fatal non-violent culture of the Moriori seems to be the rose tinted classes that gets placed on all indigenous (or sometimes just non-European) cultures. The were all peaceful living in harmony with nature until the evil European's came along and destroyed everything.

    It certainly doesn't excuse the crimes of european colonists but when people start talking reparations, land ownership or racial guilt they history looked at is incredibly selective. No one ever mentions that it was Britain who actually ended slavery and even went as far as creating a military force to suppress slavery. Brits need to be ashamed of their small stint in slavery (compared to other nations) yet have no pride in their efforts to remove it. I'm not even sure if that side of it is even taught in schools.





  • @taniwharugby Ha no..but I guess this has been dredged up to try and dispel the current controversy even though the issue is quite different.





  • @Rembrandt said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    I guess this fits here.

    What are peoples thoughts on the genocide and slavery undertaken on the indigenous people of the Chatham islands?

    I have a social activist cousin..and contributor to spinoff..who holds myself and all people of a particular skin pigment personally responsible for the atlantic slave trade and by extension all colonial oppression of Maori. In his mind this particular snippet of history is complete fiction..fair enough I suppose because if it wasn't that same incredible logic garnered from a couple years at Vic uni could very well be used against him.

    That being said I have only read a small amount about this particular event.

    edit - forgot the link:
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/12/taranaki-iwi-fights-to-keep-moriori-land-it-invaded.html

    I’ve been to the Chatham’s, there’s still people there who consider themselves Moriori . Slavery among Maori wasn’t limited to the Moriori though was it? What happened there was particularly brutal though considering they were pacifists and actually handed over part of the main island to appease the invading iwi .



  • @Rembrandt said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    Brits need to be ashamed of their small stint in slavery (compared to other nations) yet have no pride in their efforts to remove it. I'm not even sure if that side of it is even taught in schools.

    Long time back we were taught in school about the slave trade but also a fair bit about the abolitionists, particularly William Wilberforce, sadly little about the Royal Navy's significant part in abolishing the trade. These days it seems there is a lot more emphasis about who profited from the trade. My kids were taught which houses in Exeter were built on slave trade profits. It is of some annoyance that we have one of them. Apparently. And I say that, as the main trade in Exeter was woollen rather than slaves, but that isn't quite so damning.



  • Slavery on the Chatham Islands actually features in this film

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_Atlas_(film)

    Don’t bother watching it , it’s shit . They didn’t even bother trying to make it accurate . The climate looks equatorial in the Chathams in the movie and the Maori and Moriori are African looking or Melanesian .



  • I'm tired of this insistence that far off history be judged on today's societal conditions. It's a vapid argument that carries no historical time limits and cannot be rectified by hindsight. (Better for them to look at the open market slave trading that goes on today in Libya, 400 bucks gets you a male labourer I'm told)

    Everyone will have slavery in their family tree if you look for it.

    It's like drink driving, seemed like a decent lark till we learnt better



  • @Siam said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    I'm tired of this insistence that far off history be judged on today's societal conditions. It's a vapid argument that carries no historical time limits and cannot be rectified in hindsight. (Better for them to look at the open market slave trading that goes on today in Libya, 400 bucks gets you a male labourer I'm told)

    Everyone will have slavery in their family tree if you look for it.

    Yeah, na. My family lineage is all Scottish lowland scum crossed with a smattering of Donegal bog digger. As likely as any other group in the world to be pressed into involuntary service as menial workers or foot soldiers, or starved into submission to keep them in their place. The notion that everyone is equally culpable in the slave trade neglects the fact white lower classes were just as likely as an African to be dispossessed, abused or treated like chattel by their betters. A Highland crofter, Cornish or Welsh miner, Black Country mill worker or Thames mudlark would have had few meaningful rights and no real recourse to them being breached even well after the abolition of the slave trade. They would have had no influence at all on any part of commerce or politics.

    Yes, some people did very well out of slavery, but I’ll go out on a limb and say the average European - my ancestor - was an ignorant scrote who neither knew nor cared, because their own family’s lives hung by a thread.

    Interestingly my maternal grandfather told me he never saw a non-white person till he moved from Ireland to Scotland in the 1980s. When someone talked about a black man to him he thought they meant an Irish gypsy. His grandparents’ generation saw hundreds of thousands die of starvation or disease, and hundreds of thousands more emigrate. Their story is, I think, no less horrifying at a personal level than any other told today. Holding them accountable for a slave trade in black Africans is a travesty.


  • Banned

    @JC said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    @Siam said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    I'm tired of this insistence that far off history be judged on today's societal conditions. It's a vapid argument that carries no historical time limits and cannot be rectified in hindsight. (Better for them to look at the open market slave trading that goes on today in Libya, 400 bucks gets you a male labourer I'm told)

    Everyone will have slavery in their family tree if you look for it.

    Yeah, na. My family lineage is all Scottish lowland scum crossed with a smattering of Donegal bog digger. As likely as any other group in the world to be pressed into involuntary service as menial workers or foot soldiers, or starved into submission to keep them in their place. The notion that everyone is equally culpable in the slave trade neglects the fact white lower classes were just as likely as an African to be dispossessed, abused or treated like chattel by their betters. A Highland crofter, Cornish or Welsh miner, Black Country mill worker or Thames mudlark would have had few meaningful rights and no real recourse to them being breached even well after the abolition of the slave trade. They would have had no influence at all on any part of commerce or politics.

    Yes, some people did very well out of slavery, but I’ll go out on a limb and say the average European - my ancestor - was an ignorant scrote who neither knew nor cared, because their own family’s lives hung by a thread.

    Interestingly my maternal grandfather told me he never saw a non-white person till he moved from Ireland to Scotland in the 1980s. When someone talked about a black man to him he thought they meant an Irish gypsy. His grandparents’ generation saw hundreds of thousands die of starvation or disease, and hundreds of thousands more emigrate. Their story is, I think, no less horrifying at a personal level than any other told today. Holding them accountable for a slave trade in black Africans is a travesty.

    Great post.

    Mum's ancestors are penniless Irish migrants and subsistence level farmers from the Shetland Islands (who later found work in an Edinburgh pub). My dad grew up in the poorest part of Germany. His home village was burnt down FOUR farking times during the 30 year war. Surviving the winter was an achievement.

    It's absurd that anyone should be made to feel guilt for slavery exclusively because of the colour of their skin. It's as ridiculous as shaming a modern day Mongul because of Genghis Khan or even a German kid because of Hitler.

    The fact is that any colour, culture, creed etc is capable of doing fucked up shit if given the means and motivation. To claim this is restricted to a certain race is not only historically illiterate but also racist in itself.


  • Banned

    In terms of the discussion topic, my recollection is that the Moriori were also a Maori tribe (Moriori is simply a corruption of Maori) who were pushed from the mainland and settled in the Chathams. They were peaceniks who were later enslaved after a Maori invasion. I don't believe there's any dispute about the latter which is obviously a completely different issue to whether the Moriori were the original inhabitants of NZ. It's obviously not a convenient narrative to those who love to peddle the myth that all indigenous populations (whether in NZ, Aus, South America or elsewhere) were peaceful, advanced souls who weren't capable of the cruelty inflicted on them. That of course in no way justifies colonial atrocities, but is unfortunately a reflection of human nature and how cheap human life was at the time.



  • then there are these....

    https://treatygate.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/kupes-descendant-confirms-other-races-were-here-first/

    http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/18-annex-18-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visit-to-new-zealand/

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/6624320/Egyptians-Greeks-came-to-New-Zealand-first-book

    I think it is entirely possible, some of the ancient civilisations did come here at some point, I mean when Lake Taupo erupted, there are supposedly records in China and Greek histories about a meteorlogical event, so they would have known the world was a big old place and gone for a cruise, but if they had colonised NZ, then I dont expect Maori would have got a foot hold in NZ.



  • @taniwharugby said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    then there are these....

    https://treatygate.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/kupes-descendant-confirms-other-races-were-here-first/

    http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/18-annex-18-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visit-to-new-zealand/

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/6624320/Egyptians-Greeks-came-to-New-Zealand-first-book

    Hahahaha, was having a discussion about that with a mate of mine yesterday. He’s part Māori but would pass for a pakeha and because of that people who believe that bullshit normally feel comfortable telling him that Maori are suppressing the truth because it renders their treaty claims invalid.
    Yeah , nah.



  • @jegga said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    Hahahaha, was having a discussion about that with a mate of mine yesterday. He’s part Māori but would pass for a pakeha and because of that people who believe that bullshit normally feel comfortable telling him that Maori are suppressing the truth because it renders their treaty claims invalid.
    Yeah , nah.

    The 'Celtic NZ' claims and other variations seem to have taken the place of the old incorrect Moriori were here first story. The inference is that it undermines Maori claims

    Lets pretend they are true. What does that change? Long abandoned ruins or intermittent trips from other cultures wouldn't change anything about the Treaty



  • @Rembrandt said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    I guess this fits here.

    What are peoples thoughts on the genocide and slavery undertaken on the indigenous people of the Chatham islands?

    I have a social activist cousin..and contributor to spinoff..who holds myself and all people of a particular skin pigment personally responsible for the atlantic slave trade and by extension all colonial oppression of Maori. In his mind this particular snippet of history is complete fiction..fair enough I suppose because if it wasn't that same incredible logic garnered from a couple years at Vic uni could very well be used against him.

    That being said I have only read a small amount about this particular event.

    edit - forgot the link:
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/12/taranaki-iwi-fights-to-keep-moriori-land-it-invaded.html

    This is awkward for your cousin
    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2019/01/divided-tribe/



  • @jegga It's evident to me Prater is a fluffybunny. To begin with he's from WA.



  • @antipodean said in Indigenous people of the Chatham islands:

    a fluffybunny

    Reckon they both are


Log in to reply