The Underarm Ball





  • @canefan said in Black Caps v India:

    https://stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/109994406/bruce-edgar-opens-up-on-the-underarm-incident-that-infuriated-new-zealand

    Didn't know where else to put this

    Every town in NZ should erect a cricket bat statue, and once a year all old cricketers should dress up in their beige, shoulder bats, and march past .

    Such a traumatic event in our history, just isnt discussed enough. We need to bring this event back out into the light.



  • @Rapido said in Black Caps v India:

    @canefan said in Black Caps v India:

    https://stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/109994406/bruce-edgar-opens-up-on-the-underarm-incident-that-infuriated-new-zealand

    Didn't know where else to put this

    Every town in NZ should erect a cricket bat statue, and once a year all old cricketers should dress up in their beige, shoulder bats, and march past .

    Such a traumatic event in our history, just isnt discussed enough. We need to bring this event back out into the light.

    I relive it every once in a while, having bought a B&H WSC replica shirt from these guys

    http://www.retrocricket.com/newzealand.html

    Might need to buy a bigger size soon as it seems to have shrunk in the wash......



  • @canefan oh my god thanks for sharing that website. Awesome.



  • To the old buggers on here, was that incident a really big deal at the time? Or has it gained notoriety as time has gone on? (was before I was born...)



  • @No-Quarter it was MASSIVE mate. Muldoon had a pip, everyone had a go while delighting in all good Aussies being disappointed.

    In the 90s I watched a replay with Lance Cairns in a house somewhere.

    Lance pointed out all the 2s that Edgar didn't run and concluded, " that's where we lost that game". That was his summation of the match



  • @No-Quarter said in The Underarm Ball:

    To the old buggers on here, was that incident a really big deal at the time? Or has it gained notoriety as time has gone on? (was before I was born...)

    No, It was a massive deal! I was only 6 and I can vividly remember it and the aftermath.



  • Bruce Edgar is the real villain. What sort of batsman only scores 102 after carrying his bat? Nowadays that'd be a double.

    Oh and just quietly as a nation we need to stop fucken griping about this. We're worse than Poms sometimes.



  • @MN5 said in The Underarm Ball:

    Bruce Edgar is the real villain. What sort of batsman only scores 102 after carrying his bat? Nowadays that'd be a double.

    Oh and just quietly as a nation we need to stop fucken griping about this. We're worse than Poms sometimes.

    It's more a sense of nostalgia these days I reckon. The beige uniforms, the battles against the green and gold boogeymen. We won so rarely against them back then (until 1985/86), it was just reaffirmation of what we knew all along, the Aussies were cheating bastards!!



  • @No-Quarter said in The Underarm Ball:

    To the old buggers on here, was that incident a really big deal at the time? Or has it gained notoriety as time has gone on? (was before I was born...)

    No it's diminished in importance over time.

    It was HUUUGE in the day and for years after.

    Now it's just another club to beat Aussies with fir being dirty cheating unethical fluffybunnies.



  • Oh. Same match as the Snedden catch. Add that and DK Morrison's non LB against McDermott, and Dyer, and Langer not given first over of the summer against Cairns, and Gillespie caught leg side by Parore off Cairns at Perth, and L Cairns no ball for intimidatory bowling, and Lyon's bat flash that could have come from anywhere...

    ... this could go on...

    Greg Matthews. Well just Greg Matthews ...



  • Oh and Greg Chappell was like the personification of evil to my 8 year old self!! As for the umpires, their South African rugby counterparts would have been proud of the stitch up job they did on us that day, and the Snedden catch that wasn't even the half of it



  • @booboo said in The Underarm Ball:

    Greg Matthews. Well just Greg Matthews ...

    Always good for a few bums on seats



  • I remember seeing on another forum a bitter Welshman ranting about how it was karma for the 1978 grand slam game.
    That was a new angle on the game



  • Dunno if I've ever mentioned it but I don't particularly like Brad Haddin.



  • @MN5 said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dunno if I've ever mentioned it but I don't particularly like Brad Haddin.

    alt text



  • Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude



  • @MN5 no griping bro, just basking in a lay down misere 😎



  • "Aussies have an underarm problem" was our version of a meme I guess, in those days

    As a deodorant pun it was a big laugh in those unwoke times



  • @booboo there's a great photo in Hadlees "rhythm and swing " showing Matthew's catching our man on the boundary with a foot squashing the rope.

    No Photoshop in them days.

    Matthews was pretty harmless though. He was equally strange to opposition and teammates alike



  • @Siam said in The Underarm Ball:

    @booboo there's a great photo in Hadlees "rhythm and swing " showing Matthew's catching our man on the boundary with a foot squashing the rope.

    No Photoshop in them days.

    Matthews was pretty harmless though. He was equally strange to opposition and teammates alike

    That was at Eden Park. I remember that the cameras captured it all, but there was no review by the umps back then and they went on the word of the player. It was the big old 3 inch mooring rope type boundary and Matthews nearly twisted his ankle while taking, and claiming, the catch.
    Aussies. Been doing it since Adam.



  • @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.



  • @Crucial said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Siam said in The Underarm Ball:

    @booboo there's a great photo in Hadlees "rhythm and swing " showing Matthew's catching our man on the boundary with a foot squashing the rope.

    No Photoshop in them days.

    Matthews was pretty harmless though. He was equally strange to opposition and teammates alike

    That was at Eden Park. I remember that the cameras captured it all, but there was no review by the umps back then and they went on the word of the player. It was the big old 3 inch mooring rope type boundary and Matthews nearly twisted his ankle while taking, and claiming, the catch.
    Aussies. Been doing it since Adam.

    Also to put this in some context. The boundary rope was a new thing in 1986.

    You could lean against a boundary fence and take a catch, but you couldn't stand on a boundary rope and take a catch. They didn't use a rope in Australia at that time. Even 2 years later by the 87/88 WSC there were no ropes used in Australia (remember Dipak Patel taking a boundary catch at Perth inside the fence but behind the line of the wheelie sight screen).

    Why the hell Eden Park had a rope 1 foot from the boundary fence ? learner wobbles.



  • @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win



  • @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow to muddy the water and allow us to rationalise the event. But, we cheated.



  • What's this? Be nice to Aussies day?



  • @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.



  • @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Does the article mention how they practiced it before the match?



  • @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Does the article mention how they practiced it before the match?

    Yep . There’s a longer article about how they got it from a Taranaki coach who used it to penalise King Country out of a game in Pinetree last game against them . I’ll see if I can find it , it’s a decent read.

    Found it. The one armed ref was also the black caps bus driver, Andrew Jones used to tell a story about almost shitting himself looking over the bus drivers shoulder to see he was rolling a cigarette with his only hand while steering the bus with his knees through the mount vic tunnel



  • @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.



  • @SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.

    Can we all at least agree he’s a prick?



  • @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    Yeah but Andy wore the black jersey. So it's all good 😉



  • @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Simulation in rugby?



  • Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...

    From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Tasman and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.

    From the Aus side... I find it really strange that no one has ever really tried to defend the underarm. I mean... it was legal at the time. It was the very definition of pushing things to the line but without going over. Australia do tend to do this when they get caught going maybe too close (or too far over) the line. Same with the ball tampering in South Africa, once caught no one tried to say "Dozens of players have been caught in the past year by the ICC including ABdV who is captaining this other mob - if you think we are the only ones doing this you are kidding yourself".

    That said it is probably the most concise example of the two nation's respective sporting psyches there has ever been.



  • @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow to muddy the water and allow us to rationalise the event. But, we cheated.

    No sympathy for the Weksh thugs.

    Two words: Fenwick, Curry.

    Karma's a bitch huh boyos?



  • @SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.

    Define disgraceful.

    Play acting
    Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his career

    Hmm



  • @rotated said in The Underarm Ball:

    Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...

    From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Tasman and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.

    It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years

    (Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)



  • @booboo said in The Underarm Ball:

    @SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.

    Define disgraceful.

    Play acting
    Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his career

    Hmm

    Whats your view on Meads/Catchpole then?

    In the 1970s, if you're getting roughed up in the lineouts there were 2 acceptable methods at the time. Counter-biffo, or tactical short lineouts (as Mourie did the year before in Paris 77).

    Never before or since has diving out of a lineout been acceptable in rugby. But especially back then.



  • @booboo said in The Underarm Ball:

    @rotated said in The Underarm Ball:

    Two things have struck me as strange about the underarms place in history...

    From the NZ side... I find it strange that while the underarm is one of the seminal moments in our sporting history I don't really think as a sporting nation we have a hang up or complex about it (and we do have our hang ups; see Dalton, Andy). Living in Aus I've listed to hours of chrip and chat between people from both sides of the Tasman and I don't think I've heard a Kiwi bring it up as a sore point once. Even in this thread the responses are pretty dispassionate. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath it was, but I've never found it to be.

    It used to be. Was the go to taunt for years

    (Out of interest how old are you? Im 50 so 12 in at the time)

    IMO. The intensity of the underarm incident diminished over the years as the importance of ODIs diminished, so the historical context over the years reduced.

    Also, no one seriously thought NZ could tie the match from that situation. What we witnessed was an Australian captain mentally disintegrate and inflict self-harm by making e a terrible decision which conveniently gave NZers a good stick to beat Australian's with for a few years. Then as the importance diminished it still gave NZers a source for a humourus tease.

    The underarm was the best thing that happened to NZ cricket at the time, massive publicity.

    Also NZ was able to get revenge on the playing field fairly quickly (we won our next ODI v them the following season etc).



  • @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @booboo said in The Underarm Ball:

    @SammyC said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @jegga said in The Underarm Ball:

    @Rapido said in The Underarm Ball:

    @canefan said in The Underarm Ball:

    Dier the Liar was another example of the Aussie win at all costs attitude

    To put this in some context though, Dyer never played for Australia again. In 1978 Andy Haden still had 7 more years in the All Black jersey.

    It pains me to defend Haden but the penalty was against Geoff Wheel on Frank Oliver . I know there probably isn’t a single Welsh rugby fan that accepts that though in much the same way Irish rugby fans think Umaga and Mealamu deliberately took out BOD because he disrespected the Haka/was such a threat .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/108475198/andy-haden-on-the-all-blacks1978-lineout-dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

    They both dived, Haden has admitted that. It was pre-meditated.

    Oliver, and Quittenden and Haden, just have the good fortune that Wheel also used his elbow. We cheated.

    As the article says they thought the Welsh had been cheating their arses off in the lineout and getting away with it . Then they got called on it and it cost them the game.

    Try to justify it if you like, but still a disgraceful act by Haden.

    Define disgraceful.

    Play acting
    Breaking a guy's jaw and ending his career

    Hmm

    Whats your view on Meads/Catchpole then?

    In the 1970s, if you're getting roughed up in the lineouts there were 2 acceptable methods at the time. Counter-biffo, or tactical short lineouts (as Mourie did the year before in Paris 77).

    Never before or since has diving out of a lineout been acceptable in rugby. But especially back then.

    Have you seen the Catchpole incident? I’d like to see some footage to judge for myself


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