Crusaders name/branding
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St. John and Red Cross (plus others I expect) use the same cross that was represented by the Crusades...where should we draw the line? How about next time something happens, move those lines then?
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
I disagree. In Ireland, they will always remember the Irish Famine. Jewish families will always remember those killed in the Shoah. African Americans remember slavery and the civil rights struggle. Most western societies honour their war dead. Most emotional remembrance services I've ever seen was in Russia. Those memories involve pain.
I have no problems with any social memories unless those social memories become an excuse for hate and violence.
You have moved the goal posts though. You first said 'profound pain' now it is remembers. If anyone in Ireland feels 'profound pain' about the famine then they are either mentally ill or have never actually experienced profound pain. When your child gets diagnosed with Cancer you feel profound pain, when a loved one dies suddenly you feel profound pain... when some people died of starvation or violence hundreds of years NOBODY sane feels profound pain in the current time.
And for the record I am 100% convinced that it will be changed, a lot of people LOVE to virtue signal at this sort of time.
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I disagree the past, even if distant to you or me, is a matter of profound pain (as real as an immediate personal tragedy) to some families and societies.
No problem with that unless it leads to hatred, violence or the expectation of legal reparations.
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This post is deleted!
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@Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:
@Kirwan said in Crusaders name/branding:
@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Yes, I was aware the Crusades happened several centuries ago. They are still a cause of profound pain to Muslims whose ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by, at times barbaric, European invaders and to many Jewish people because of Rhineland Massacres. Communities tend to remember their children being roasted alive by savages.
St Patrick was even longer ago and probably English or two people, but that doesn't stop him being an important part of the Irish diaspora's social memory.
Not the biggest thing in the world by any means, but IMHO there are many other parts of European and New Zealand history that are much more deserving commemoration by a world-class sports team than the Crusades.
That’s just remembering one side of history. Barbaric acts occurred on both sides and was just part of civilisation 800 years ago.
The Islamic empire of the time had plenty of blood on its hands, as did the prophet Mohammed.
The point is that it was eight centuries ago. Anyone still hanging onto that history is the problem, not the name. Nobody gets hurt when they are offended.
Anybody in the media campaigning for this name change is doing the terrorists work. It’s exactly the sort of stupid distraction annd division his trolling manifesto was trying to provoke.
True, but there's no SR team named after those other barbaric acts, is there?
And whether some groups are hanging on to history may be a problem, but it's a fact you can't just discount.
Alhtough I don't agree with a name change, I don't think it's "doing the terrorist's work". The name was always sensitive to some, also before last Friday.
No super rugby team ... but Saracens ...
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Saracens nearly changed their name to London Tribe after 7/7. I'm glad they didn't.
Saracens' marketing is perhaps a pointer of the best way forward here. Sarrie the Camel as pre-match entertainment, not men on horseback waving swords. A Fez as a gift for players after a landmark game, not a sword. No name change necessary IMHO, just a little more cultural sensitivity.
The Allianz hosted today a big Jewish charity event. I am sure the Crusaders will help raise money for victims of Friday's attacks.
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
I disagree the past, even if distant to you or me, is a matter of profound pain (as real as an immediate personal tragedy) to some families and societies.
No problem with that unless it leads to hatred, violence or the expectation of legal repatriations.
I bet you cannot even name all of your ancestrs that were alive 150 years ago.
If you cannot name them, it shows how shallow this profound pain would be. I know that my great grandfather who had a small child who dies after getting run over by a wagon. Should I feel profound pain from that? No.
It is just fakeness and dishonesty if I said that every time I saw a horse and wagon at a fair or event I felt a sense of profound pain, I remember and I think jeez that must of really sucked... glad that wasnt me.I refuse to validate other peoples faux outrage and faux 'profound pain'.
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Bet lost, but only because other people had the time and inclination to research Family Trees, including a distant cousin who turned her researches on that part of the family into a book.
I hope the Crusaders don't change their name because the circumstances make it inappropriate and the team means a huge amount now to their community. But, as someone who has studied and taught for many years about the appalling Crusades, I regret (a little) that the name was chosen in the first place.
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I think when they say 'haphazard' naming of the teams, it means proper amateur administrators who made choices under pressure when the game turned pro. They were probably more worried about signing players against world rugby, than getting the names 'right'.
That said, 'Crusaders' was always a bit of an interesting choice
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Middlesex Crcket Club dropped the name Middlesex Crusaders in 2009 following complaints from the Muslim and Jewish North London communities after using it for ten years:
They ditched the replacement name Middlesex Panthers in 2014:
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Bet lost, but only because other people had the time and inclination to research Family Trees, including a distant cousin who turned her researches on that part of the family into a book.
I hope the Crusaders don't change their name because the circumstances make it inappropriate and the team means a huge amount now to their community. But, as someone who has studied and taught for many years about the appalling Crusades, I regret (a little) that the name was chosen in the first place.
Really? You remember them all? Not just have access to them, but remember all full names? That is actually impressive, I could find them up in my family tree.. but just dont have the inclination to remember them.
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@sparky said in Crusaders name/branding:
Middlesex Crcket Club dropped the name Middlesex Crusaders in 2009 following complaints from the Muslim and Jewish North London communities after using it for ten years:
They ditched the replacement name Middlesex Panthers in 2014:
They are pathetic then. And I wouldn't recommend taking advice from the UK on any aspect of race/cultural relations.
Your point is noted though, and makes me even more pessimistic that the Crusaders wont capitulate.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Crusaders name/branding:
They are pathetic then. And I wouldn't recommend taking advice from the UK on any aspect of race/cultural relations.
Your point is noted though, and makes me even more pessimistic that the Crusaders wont capitulate.
This is another example from the US. Iggy the Crusader was a college mascot that got ditched last year.. its was briefly national news. The Jonah Goldberg article below makes a couple of good points
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Anyone actually have a good understanding of the Crusades era? The modern narrative seems to be roughly a bunch of evil Christians just decided to shoot off overseas and murder Muslims..seems a wee bit simplistic, I"m pretty sure there would have been some Caliphates at that time which might have a little to do with it. Definitely something that I should learn more about.
Regardless however this name change will do no good whatsoever and just opens the door further to banning everything that people might choose to take offence over.
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@Rembrandt said in Crusaders name/branding:
Anyone actually have a good understanding of the Crusades era? The modern narrative seems to be roughly a bunch of evil Christians just decided to shoot off overseas and murder Muslims..seems a wee bit simplistic, I"m pretty sure there would have been some Caliphates at that time which might have a little to do with it. Definitely something that I should learn more about.
Regardless however this name change will do no good whatsoever and just opens the door further to banning everything that people might choose to take offence over.
I've read books, IIRC one of the popes decided that Christianity should go and reclaim the Holy Lands and all the relics that go with it. Many European Kings (King Richard the Lion Heart was one of the most famous) took up the adventure. It wasn't only the ME they tried to take either; I recall that Western Christian forces sacked Constantinople, the Eastern capital of Christianity at the time. It was basically an excuse for a big OE
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@canefan said in Crusaders name/branding:
@Rembrandt said in Crusaders name/branding:
Anyone actually have a good understanding of the Crusades era? The modern narrative seems to be roughly a bunch of evil Christians just decided to shoot off overseas and murder Muslims..seems a wee bit simplistic, I"m pretty sure there would have been some Caliphates at that time which might have a little to do with it. Definitely something that I should learn more about.
Regardless however this name change will do no good whatsoever and just opens the door further to banning everything that people might choose to take offence over.
I've read books, IIRC one of the popes decided that Christianity should go and reclaim the Holy Lands and all the relics that go with it. Many European Kings (King Richard the Lion Heart was one of the most famous) took up the adventure. It wasn't only the ME they tried to take either; I recall that Western Christian forces sacked Constantinople, the Eastern capital of Christianity at the time. It was basically an excuse for a big OE
It was less about the Holy Lands and more about stopping the spread of Islam into traditionally Christian lands. E,g, Turkey now vs Anatolia then.
The sack of Constantinople was partly in turn retribution for the murder of RCs by the Byzantines previously. So Christians weren't adverse to killing each other.
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Peter Frankopan's book (based on his doctorate) is probably the best to read on the origins of the First Crusade and caused a bit of stir when published a few years ago. It reassesses the First Crusade in terms of Byzantine/Turkish politics and Emperor Alexios I Komnenos' machinations to hold on to the Byzantine Empire. Well worth the effort.
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Mark Richardson reckons it might be time. Given the history of the name and the sheer shock and grief here, especially for the Muslim community, I'm inclined to agree with him.
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@Godder said in Crusaders name/branding:
Mark Richardson reckons it might be time. Given the history of the name and the sheer shock and grief here, especially for the Muslim community, I'm inclined to agree with him.
He's turned around from his initial stance. The team name is only very young, if they decide to change as a gesture of good faith it will not be the first time a team has changed their name because of it's perceived negative connotations.
I am sure they have more important things to deal with at the moment, but it would be a gesture of good faith for the local muslim community not to make a big deal of the team name and allow the change to occur from within. They have never voiced any opposition in public before, and I don't see why they should now