Should the Crusaders change their name?



  • Everyone else is seems to be running this poll.. might as well see what TSF thinks

    Yes or No



  • @antipodean said in Crusaders name/branding:

    I'd be astonished if the Muslim community supported such a suggestion. I have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more swayed by the outpouring of grief and support for them rather than feeling such a divisive move would be a good idea.

    I've seen Crusaders fans on social media identifying themselves as muslims and they were against a name change.



  • From Newshub:

    Original Crusaders chairman Donald Stewart revealed to Stuff that he had reservations about the name when the Super 12 was launched in 1996.
    
    Stewart said the name was given to them by New Zealand Rugby, which had full control of the process.
    
    "I had doubts on the basis that we were trying to project ourselves globally with an international competition," said Stewart, who is now based in Sydney.
    
    "And I wondered whether this name might prove offensive to some potential viewers. I probably didn't share that opinion widely."
    


  • @Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:

    @antipodean said in Crusaders name/branding:

    I'd be astonished if the Muslim community supported such a suggestion. I have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more swayed by the outpouring of grief and support for them rather than feeling such a divisive move would be a good idea.

    I've seen Crusaders fans on social media identifying themselves as muslims and they were against a name change.

    They probably realise the name is not an attempt to actually reference the Crusades. I hope that any discussion about a name change is conducted rationally. If they are being serious about a name change, how about the Falcons? NZ's primary bird of prey



  • @canefan That's actually a good suggestion, although I never quite like the fact that you have the Chiefs and the Exeter Chiefs. You'd get the same with the Falcons and Newcastle Falcons. But yeah, the name Albatross doesn't quite cut it haha.



  • @Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:

    @canefan That's actually a good suggestion, although I never quite like the fact that you have the Chiefs and the Exeter Chiefs. You'd get the same with the Falcons and Newcastle Falcons. But yeah, the name Albatross doesn't quite cut it haha.

    I don't reckon most fans would associate the two. You guys are waaaayyy more famous than those birds from Newcastle πŸ˜‰



  • @canefan You guys? I don't think the Magpies are that famous. Awesome agressive bird though.



  • Personally I think the whole conversation should slow down (and ultimately the name should be kept)

    However there seems to be a push for this to happen judging from the number of editorials every day since Sunday

    Has anyone seen an editorial that is pro keeping the name?



  • @Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @canefan You guys? I don't think the Magpies are that famous. Awesome agressive bird though, although not a native bird.

    As in the storied rugby franchise based in Christchurch



  • @Duluth said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Personally I think the whole conversation should slow down (and ultimately the name should be kept)

    However there seems to be a push for this to happen judging from the number of editorials every day since Sunday

    Has anyone seen an editorial that is pro keeping the name?

    I think if the franchise decides to then fine. They should feel no pressure to do so and perhaps the entire community is happy with it as is



  • @canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:

    @antipodean said in Crusaders name/branding:

    I'd be astonished if the Muslim community supported such a suggestion. I have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more swayed by the outpouring of grief and support for them rather than feeling such a divisive move would be a good idea.

    I've seen Crusaders fans on social media identifying themselves as muslims and they were against a name change.

    They probably realise the name is not an attempt to actually reference the Crusades. I hope that any discussion about a name change is conducted rationally. If they are being serious about a name change, how about the Falcons? NZ's primary bird of prey

    As a bird nerd I like the Falcons. You could also look at the Canterbury Wrybills, an endemic shorebird that is the only bird in the world whose bill bends to the right πŸ™‚



  • @Duluth I think I've seen one (but can't remember where). This media campaign is annoying the hell out of me. Whether they change the name or not, last Friday's terrorist attack should not be the cause or the reason for a change, and that's exactly what the media seem to be pushing for.

    (I actually thought it was a good thing in the Crusaders' media release that they said they'd consider it (they were already thinking about it anyway), but at a more appropriate time.)



  • @chimoaus said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:

    @antipodean said in Crusaders name/branding:

    I'd be astonished if the Muslim community supported such a suggestion. I have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more swayed by the outpouring of grief and support for them rather than feeling such a divisive move would be a good idea.

    I've seen Crusaders fans on social media identifying themselves as muslims and they were against a name change.

    They probably realise the name is not an attempt to actually reference the Crusades. I hope that any discussion about a name change is conducted rationally. If they are being serious about a name change, how about the Falcons? NZ's primary bird of prey

    As a bird nerd I like the Falcons. You could also look at the Canterbury Wrybills, an endemic shorebird that is the only bird in the world whose bill bends to the right πŸ™‚

    Kea? Kakapo?

    Fark it, the Moa ... a shoo in for beer sponsorship too



  • @nzzp said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @chimoaus said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:

    @antipodean said in Crusaders name/branding:

    I'd be astonished if the Muslim community supported such a suggestion. I have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more swayed by the outpouring of grief and support for them rather than feeling such a divisive move would be a good idea.

    I've seen Crusaders fans on social media identifying themselves as muslims and they were against a name change.

    They probably realise the name is not an attempt to actually reference the Crusades. I hope that any discussion about a name change is conducted rationally. If they are being serious about a name change, how about the Falcons? NZ's primary bird of prey

    As a bird nerd I like the Falcons. You could also look at the Canterbury Wrybills, an endemic shorebird that is the only bird in the world whose bill bends to the right πŸ™‚

    Kea? Kakapo?

    Fark it, the Moa ... a shoo in for beer sponsorship too

    Falcons = top of the food chain. It's apt



  • @Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    This media campaign is annoying the hell out of me

    I don't think its the right time to be discussing it and bad decisions get made when you rush

    However there is momentum for the name change. So those that want the name to stay probably need to raise their voices soon



  • @nzzp said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @chimoaus said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @canefan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Stargazer said in Crusaders name/branding:

    @antipodean said in Crusaders name/branding:

    I'd be astonished if the Muslim community supported such a suggestion. I have a sneaking suspicion they'd be more swayed by the outpouring of grief and support for them rather than feeling such a divisive move would be a good idea.

    I've seen Crusaders fans on social media identifying themselves as muslims and they were against a name change.

    They probably realise the name is not an attempt to actually reference the Crusades. I hope that any discussion about a name change is conducted rationally. If they are being serious about a name change, how about the Falcons? NZ's primary bird of prey

    As a bird nerd I like the Falcons. You could also look at the Canterbury Wrybills, an endemic shorebird that is the only bird in the world whose bill bends to the right πŸ™‚

    Kea? Kakapo?

    Fark it, the Moa ... a shoo in for beer sponsorship too

    Not the Canterbury Kakas?



  • Maybe s bit pedantic, but I’m a third option. No opinion, but support the Crusaders in their decision.

    Felt horrible writing support the crusaders.



  • @MajorRage said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Maybe s bit pedantic, but I’m a third option. No opinion, but support the Crusaders in their decision.

    Felt horrible writing support the crusaders.

    Halfway there MR. Now denounce all other super rugby teams and you will be anointed Captain of the Crusade



  • @ACT-Crusader said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @MajorRage said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Maybe s bit pedantic, but I’m a third option. No opinion, but support the Crusaders in their decision.

    Felt horrible writing support the crusaders.

    Halfway there MR. Now denounce all other super rugby teams and you will be anointed Captain of the Crusade

    I feel you've got to the nub of the matter - we'd all be better off if the word Crusade and any derivative was banished from the lexicon.



  • I think they should change the name. The crusades were a ghastly period in European/middle East history. The term is offensive and should not be glorified by using it in a team.

    I have thought that for a while, but given what happened I am now convinced the name should go. Am I really the only one here who thinks this?



  • I've voted no, but if the wider Christchurch and rugby community want to do so, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's their team.



  • Offensive to who? What right minded Muslim is offended by a reference to events from 800 years ago?

    What happened last week was awful, and it seems to me that people what to do something, anything, to make it right.

    But this smacks of choosing low hanging fruit. Changing a rugby team’s name will make no difference to how muslims are treated in this country, and I would guess it would make no difference to how welcome they feel.

    Peoples actions do that. And the outpouring of shared grief and public displays of support are a much better start of showing tolerance and understanding than something that is little more than virtue signalling IMO.



  • I think this change is as good as certain. I saw an interview with Read, Robertson and Whitelock and it just seems obvious.

    No one is willing to make the argument that Kirwan just posted in the current climate, nor do I blame them.

    It's a sad state of affairs.



  • @Damo said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    I think they should change the name. The crusades were a ghastly period in European/middle East history. The term is offensive and should not be glorified by using it in a team.

    I have thought that for a while, but given what happened I am now convinced the name should go. Am I really the only one here who thinks this?

    Having initially said "no" to the need to change, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to agree that the name can be offensive to some muslims (depending on where they're from) and that could be a reason to change the name. And that has absolutely nothing to do with (the overused notion of) virtue signalling. What I have a problem with, is the fact that media and other proponents of a name change start pushing it now, as if it's related to the terrorist attack. I think that's wrong.

    That's why I think the Crusaders are taking the right approach in saying that they wil consider it at a later time, discuss it with the local community and then take a decision, instead of doing it now. I agree with them that this isn't the right time.

    People who think that the word or name crusaders only relate to past events from 800 years ago, fail to see the link with what's been happening in the Middle East in the last few decades (probably longer). For many muslims, the words crusade and crusaders have a similar meaning to jihad and jihadist today. Western military interventions in the Middle East have caused a lot of misery & fear, even if they were started to fight dictators, Taliban or ISIS, and are often seen/portrayed as modern crusades, esp if there are civilian casualties. Whether local muslim groups in Chch see it that way, I don't know, but that's why it's good that the Crusaders talk to them about it. Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change. Wait and see.



  • Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!

    Way too Christian! Might be offensive!



  • @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!

    Way too Christian! Might be offensive!

    Chiefs too controversial for obvious reasons.
    Hurricanes is a natural disaster which would be tremendously offensive to those who have lost houses and family members in them.
    Blues the colour is too synonymous with the birth of a boy child, not inclusive.

    Highlanders might be fine? They didn't do terrible much did they beside knocking about in Scotland did they?



  • @rotated said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Highlanders might be fine? They didn't do terrible much did they beside knocking about in Scotland did they?

    Clearly cultural appropriation



  • Why did they stop at just the Crusaders on horses? Before each home game they could have people re-enact the Crusades. We could jeer the baddies when it looks like they're going to win and then cheer when finally the good guys pillage the heathens. Then Whitelock could come out to ground and thrust his sword into it. Would be neat.



  • @nzzp said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @rotated said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Highlanders might be fine? They didn't do terrible much did they beside knocking about in Scotland did they?

    Clearly cultural appropriation

    No it's not.

    The Scots are predominantly white, therefore they have no culture.



  • @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!

    Way too Christian! Might be offensive!

    I was too scared to go there ...



  • @Toddy said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Why did they stop at just the Crusaders on horses? Before each home game they could have people re-enact the Crusades. We could jeer the baddies when it looks like they're going to win and then cheer when finally the good guys pillage the heathens. Then Whitelock could come out to ground and thrust his sword into it. Would be neat.

    The Crusaders ultimately lost. The Saracens won.



  • The Pig Islanders?



  • @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!

    Way too Christian! Might be offensive!

    That's the most stupid argument I've seen on social media. None of the objections have to do with Christianity itself.

    Most people would object if a sports team called itself "Jihad" or "Mujahideen".

    No sensible person would ask for a name change of the city of Islamabad.



  • @Stargazer not really...its about what the Crusades represent isnt it?

    Similarly what Christchurch's name represents...I know plenty of tongue in cheek comments above, but where do you draw the line?

    Plenty of things throughout history that have caused harm to people, cultures, countries etc.

    Gengys might think about changing thier name, I mean Genghis killed a whole heap of Chinese

    It is walking a fine line...as many are saying, they wont rush the decision as now is not the time...maybe the Crusdaers will need a Referendum...



  • The Thorn(e)s.



  • @Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!

    Way too Christian! Might be offensive!

    That's the most stupid argument I've seen on social media. None of the objections have to do with Christianity itself.

    Most people would object if a sports team called itself "Jihad" or "Mujahideen".

    No sensible person would ask for a name change of the city of Islamabad.

    The whole thing is stupid, and my joke was in response to this part of your comment;

    "Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change"

    There is nothing offensive about crosses and swords.

    In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?



  • @Kirwan In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?

    That's it in a nutshell.

    In the old days, it was remarkably simple, sticks and stones etc. All this offense is a variation on this. Better to arm individuals with the tools that identify nonsense talk, rather than crying to authorities



  • This post is deleted!


  • @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!

    Way too Christian! Might be offensive!

    That's the most stupid argument I've seen on social media. None of the objections have to do with Christianity itself.

    Most people would object if a sports team called itself "Jihad" or "Mujahideen".

    No sensible person would ask for a name change of the city of Islamabad.

    The whole thing is stupid, and my joke was in response to this part of your comment;

    "Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change"

    There is nothing offensive about crosses and swords.

    In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?

    In itself there's nothing offensive about crosses and swords (unless you're a pacifist); the combination of the name Crusaders and 'crosses and swords' may make it offensive to some.

    Crusaders can be crusaders for peace; that connection is, however, unlikely if your imagery contains swords (connecting them to violence) and crosses (connecting them - and the violence - to Christianity, in which name the ancient Crusaders went to war). Remove the crosses and swords, and you end that connection. Not sure an olive branch on their logo would work though haha.



  • @Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Stargazer said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    @Kirwan said in Should the Crusaders change their name?:

    Why stop at the rugby team. If we are changing the cross imagery as well, perhaps we should rename Christchurch itself!

    Way too Christian! Might be offensive!

    That's the most stupid argument I've seen on social media. None of the objections have to do with Christianity itself.

    Most people would object if a sports team called itself "Jihad" or "Mujahideen".

    No sensible person would ask for a name change of the city of Islamabad.

    The whole thing is stupid, and my joke was in response to this part of your comment;

    "Who knows, maybe it's only the imagery of the crosses and swords they'd like to change"

    There is nothing offensive about crosses and swords.

    In short, where to you draw the line in terms of somebody's offence restricting what other people can do?

    In itself there's nothing offensive about crosses and swords (unless you're a pacifist); the combination of the name Crusaders and 'crosses and swords' may make it offensive to some.

    Crusaders can be crusaders for peace; that connection is, however, unlikely if your imagery contains swords (connecting them to violence) and crosses (connecting them - and the violence - to Christianity, in which name the ancient Crusaders went to war). Remove the crosses and swords, and you end that connection. Not sure an olive branch on their logo would work though haha.

    If they decide to do something, logo change would certainly be much easier than all out change. The Cleveland Indians got rid of their red Indian chief logo recently and replaced it with another logo


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