Censorship and the Mosque Shooting



  • @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    But a book being boring is a personal opinion of that book. Should we discard/change that opinion to suit others?

    For the record I found the book boring and stopped after the first chapter. I will revisit it again some time this year.

    You can have that opinion, and I can think it is facile reason to criticize it. But I am not aware you did that?



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Jeez it makes me laugh all you guys saying it is boring and obvious. You lot must really have your life together and everyone you know must have their life together, all the suicide rates among young men, the drop out rates and depression rates among young men must not exist in your circles.
    All the lives that have been changed for the better dont matter?
    According to you lot people shouldnt try to give some guidance to those who might need it or enjoy it because it is common sense guidance? FFS.

    Pompous jackasses. You just care about throwing shade. Get over yourselves.

    I was enjoying the balanced discussion before you jumped in all aggressive. Rembrandt and Duluth both made good points and got likes from me without resorting to insulting those with a different opinion.

    Only one pompous jackass in here



  • @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Kirwan who has said that? I may have missed that.

    SammyC was saying it's not a big issue, some of his reasons were fine (who buys books from Whitcoulls anymore anyway) some leaned more towards the book wasn't important anyway.

    The principle is the important thing not the content of the book, and banning a book (and taking adavatage of a tragedy like this to justify it) is just repugnant IMO.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    But a book being boring is a personal opinion of that book. Should we discard/change that opinion to suit others?

    For the record I found the book boring and stopped after the first chapter. I will revisit it again some time this year.

    You can have that opinion, and I can think it is facile reason to criticize it. But I am not aware you did that?

    I mentioned I found the book boring further up the thread. You 'liked' the post too.



  • @SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Jeez it makes me laugh all you guys saying it is boring and obvious. You lot must really have your life together and everyone you know must have their life together, all the suicide rates among young men, the drop out rates and depression rates among young men must not exist in your circles.
    All the lives that have been changed for the better dont matter?
    According to you lot people shouldnt try to give some guidance to those who might need it or enjoy it because it is common sense guidance? FFS.

    Pompous jackasses. You just care about throwing shade. Get over yourselves.

    I was enjoying the balanced discussion before you jumped in all aggressive. Rembrandt and Duluth both made good points without resorting to insulting those with a different opinion.

    Only one pompous jackass in here

    Oh no you 'have offended' me.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @SammyC said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Jeez it makes me laugh all you guys saying it is boring and obvious. You lot must really have your life together and everyone you know must have their life together, all the suicide rates among young men, the drop out rates and depression rates among young men must not exist in your circles.
    All the lives that have been changed for the better dont matter?
    According to you lot people shouldnt try to give some guidance to those who might need it or enjoy it because it is common sense guidance? FFS.

    Pompous jackasses. You just care about throwing shade. Get over yourselves.

    I was enjoying the balanced discussion before you jumped in all aggressive. Rembrandt and Duluth both made good points without resorting to insulting those with a different opinion.

    Only one pompous jackass in here

    Oh no you 'have offended' me.

    God you’re painful.... participate in the discussion without name calling and reprimanding people



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback did you get confused by the no?

    @rotated's opener was the start of that line of banter. I got that you thought that one was amusing. So how about you take on board your own advice re assumptions?



  • @Kirwan said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Kirwan who has said that? I may have missed that.

    SammyC was saying it's not a big issue, some of his reasons were fine (who buys books from Whitcoulls anymore anyway) some leaned more towards the book wasn't important anyway.

    The principle is the important thing not the content of the book, and banning a book (and taking adavatage of a tragedy like this to justify it) is just repugnant IMO.

    The book isn't banned is it. Whitcoulls made a commercial decision not to sell it. I am sure you can buy it elsewhere, and are free to choose not to shop at Whitcoulls based on their decision



  • @canefan said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Kirwan said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Kirwan who has said that? I may have missed that.

    SammyC was saying it's not a big issue, some of his reasons were fine (who buys books from Whitcoulls anymore anyway) some leaned more towards the book wasn't important anyway.

    The principle is the important thing not the content of the book, and banning a book (and taking adavatage of a tragedy like this to justify it) is just repugnant IMO.

    The book isn't banned is it. Whitcoulls made a commercial decision not to sell it. I am sure you can buy it elsewhere, and are free to choose not to shop at Whitcoulls based on their decision

    Yep, both actions I'll be taking. I don't support companies that virtue signal on the back of a tragedy , and I do support people that actually are trying to help people.



  • @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    It's some amazing advertising for the book.

    I tried reading a borrowed copy of the book about six months ago and put it down after the first chapter. It bored me to tears. However, I just purchased a copy from Unity books to put back on the bedside table. Thought $40 was a bit steep but it's worth it.

    Kinda different tone dont ya think?



  • Lets make sure we get back to arguing the point, and not directly things at the posters please.



  • alt text



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback message is the same. The book is fucking boring. Doesn't mean I won't revisit it or that others find it life changing. Good for them.



  • @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    But a book being boring is a personal opinion of that book. Should we discard/change that opinion to suit others?

    For the record I found the book boring and stopped after the first chapter. I will revisit it again some time this year.

    I found the book boring because I realized I am so awesome that I didn't have to listen to any of it.



  • I personally gained a huge amount from the book but even so I did struggle at times reading it (I worry that modern tech might have messed with my attention span on serious books). I have a few mates who bought it but also bought the audio book and found that worked much better for them. Heard a nice anecdote the other day of a bloke who is a massive JP fan tries to get his deadbeat drug addict mate into it but there was no way getting him to read it or sit through a 3 hour podcast, instead got him Akira The Don's JPBwave albums which mixes JP's message with lofi hiphop (perfect background music for room cleaning!). Apparently this did the trick, from the music he got into the podcasts and the lecture series and apparently turned his life around.



  • @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    The photo that Whitcoulls apparently refers to for the removal of the book from their shelves.

    alt text

    Not stirring here, honest.

    But could a Jordan Peterson fan tell me why he would take a photo with a guy wearing a t-shirt saying I'm a Proud Islamaphobe?



  • It feels a bit more blatant than when he got pictured with those guys with the Pepe picture. He must have people coming through at a rate of knots for pictures and meet and greets. But it does seem a bit surprising that this wasn't noticed, not sure if he has anyone helping out - or if he practices any kind of censorship of iffy visual messaging. If it was noted ahead of the photo being taken I don't know to make of it.



  • It's a fair question but there is a lot unknown about this picture.

    He's at the end of an extremely long tour and has a brief 15 seconds with each fan of the hundreds that pay large amounts to meet him.

    He may not have noticed and it could be a screwup of whomever is running the tours. It's also possible that this is a regressive lefty or an alt-right agitator (both groups despise him) trying to set him up. It could be a genuine fan who is a bit screwed up, if Peterson was to just berate him what would that do to the individual? He's a very compassionate man he may have showed compassion in the hopes to pull the guy out of it.

    The other aspect to consider is what exactly is wrong with that shirt. Sure in the wake of the massacre it seems attrocious but remember there is no such word as christianophobic, many reject islamophobic as a term entirely. Phobic means irrational fear, well as un PC as it is to say it after the Christchurch event there are plenty of very rational reasons to fear Islam and many of them are mentioned on that shirt and supported in the Qur'an itself.

    In hindsight I'm sure he probably wished he'd told him to cover it up, hell maybe even lend his jacket or something but in the moment you can make the wrong move.



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    The photo that Whitcoulls apparently refers to for the removal of the book from their shelves.

    alt text

    Not stirring here, honest.

    But could a Jordan Peterson fan tell me why he would take a photo with a guy wearing a t-shirt saying I'm a Proud Islamaphobe?

    The small print?





  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    The photo that Whitcoulls apparently refers to for the removal of the book from their shelves.

    alt text

    Not stirring here, honest.

    But could a Jordan Peterson fan tell me why he would take a photo with a guy wearing a t-shirt saying I'm a Proud Islamaphobe?

    My honest answer to that is who cares? There's pictures of Obama with Louis Farrakhan, who is openly anti-Semitic referring to Jewish people as termites. Does that make Obama anti-Semitic? Should people demand shops stop stocking Obama's books? Fuck no, that would be absurd. And so is this.



  • @jegga it's a slippery slope alright...



  • @No-Quarter said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    The photo that Whitcoulls apparently refers to for the removal of the book from their shelves.

    alt text

    Not stirring here, honest.

    But could a Jordan Peterson fan tell me why he would take a photo with a guy wearing a t-shirt saying I'm a Proud Islamaphobe?

    My honest answer to that is who cares? There's pictures of Obama with Louis Farrakhan, who is openly anti-Semitic referring to Jewish people as termites. Does that make Obama anti-Semitic? Should people demand shops stop stocking Obama's books? Fuck no, that would be absurd. And so is this.

    My short answer is Whitcoulls.



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @No-Quarter said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    The photo that Whitcoulls apparently refers to for the removal of the book from their shelves.

    alt text

    Not stirring here, honest.

    But could a Jordan Peterson fan tell me why he would take a photo with a guy wearing a t-shirt saying I'm a Proud Islamaphobe?

    My honest answer to that is who cares? There's pictures of Obama with Louis Farrakhan, who is openly anti-Semitic referring to Jewish people as termites. Does that make Obama anti-Semitic? Should people demand shops stop stocking Obama's books? Fuck no, that would be absurd. And so is this.

    My short answer is Whitcoulls.

    Well, it looks like Whitcoulls were pressured by radical lefties to stop selling the book and decided they'd just bow to their wishes. So it is people that are intolerant of others views that care, and I'd like to see the general public tell those people where to go (like we do with Family First for example when they try to get books banned).



  • @No-Quarter said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @No-Quarter said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Toddy said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    The photo that Whitcoulls apparently refers to for the removal of the book from their shelves.

    alt text

    Not stirring here, honest.

    But could a Jordan Peterson fan tell me why he would take a photo with a guy wearing a t-shirt saying I'm a Proud Islamaphobe?

    My honest answer to that is who cares? There's pictures of Obama with Louis Farrakhan, who is openly anti-Semitic referring to Jewish people as termites. Does that make Obama anti-Semitic? Should people demand shops stop stocking Obama's books? Fuck no, that would be absurd. And so is this.

    My short answer is Whitcoulls.

    Well, it looks like Whitcoulls were pressured by radical lefties to stop selling the book and decided they'd just bow to their wishes. So it is people that are intolerant of others views that care, and I'd like to see the general public tell those people where to go (like we do with Family First for example when they try to get books banned).

    To be clear, and as I stated above, this decision by Whitcoulls in my view is absolutely idiotic.

    The thing is though, if you are going to get your photo taken with your arm around a dude wearing that t-shirt, there may be repercussions further down the line, if thats not what your ideology is really about.

    As pointed out by others, there are many many other books which should be tinned before this one. But he's probably the most high profile author, and therefore the easiest target. We can go on and on and on about the radical left as much as we want, but they exist (hell I'm closely related to one) and they aren't going anywhere. Islamaphobia is THE hot topic at the moment, unfortunately for all the wrong reasons. It's a bloody easy virtual signal for Whitcoulls to do this when that picture exists.



  • What a ridiculous society we've become when we claim to judge a person because of a tee shirt he is standing next to for 5 seconds.

    Think about the logic in that.

    How the fuck is that an indication of anything? The virtue signalling about this is pathetic.

    If this is a legitimate criteria for meamingfull judgement, then we're all going to lose



  • @Siam said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    What a ridiculous society we've become when we claim to judge a person because of a tee shirt he is standing next to for 5 seconds.

    Think about the logic in that.

    How the fuck is that an indication of anything? The virtue signalling about this is pathetic.

    If this is a legitimate criteria for meamingfull judgement, then we're all going to lose

    Seriously, I don’t think many really disagree with you. But above is just not the point.

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Siam said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    What a ridiculous society we've become when we claim to judge a person because of a tee shirt he is standing next to for 5 seconds.

    Think about the logic in that.

    How the fuck is that an indication of anything? The virtue signalling about this is pathetic.

    If this is a legitimate criteria for meamingfull judgement, then we're all going to lose

    Seriously, I don’t think many really disagree with you. But above is just not the point.

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?

    He makes sense. That makes him a threat to extremists who have undue influence currently.



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?

    Refusal to use personal pronouns, in violation of Canadian law. Faced immense pressure within his own campaus at University of Toronto. Then a tutor at a different university used a clip of him in debate on a tax-payer funded public television station and she lost her job. Canadians went, huh? How dangerous is this guy? So they listened and read, and went, ummm, these are perfectly normal beliefs and values. He made liberal SJW culture look clownish, narrow-minded and authoritarian.

    That’s why he is controversial.



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?

    I'm not one of his fanboys (I think he's a net good but he gets a lot wrong)

    I think it's basically because he has fundamental disagreements with the post modernism that is now popular with large parts of the left.

    Remember your thread about you and your sister having an argument where you were both playing by different rules? You were on the standard enlightenment side (reason, logic, some things being objectively true) she was on the post modern side (individuals have their own truths, reason and logic are stained with white male supremacy and should be dismissed... "you'll never understand")
    It's the same disagreement on a larger scale



  • @Salacious-Crumb said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?

    Refusal to use personal pronouns, in violation of Canadian law. Faced immense pressure within his own campaus at University of Toronto. Then a tutor at a different university used a clip of him in debate on a tax-payer funded public television station and she lost her job. Canadians went, huh? How dangerous is this guy? So they listened and read, and went, ummm, these are perfectly normal beliefs and values. He made liberal SJW culture look clownish, narrow-minded and authoritarian.

    That’s why he is controversial.

    Right answer to the wrong question.

    Don’t necessarily disagree tho.



  • @Duluth said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?

    I'm not one of his fanboys (I think he's a net good but he gets a lot wrong)

    I think it's basically because he has fundamental disagreements with the post modernism that is now popular with large parts of the left.

    Remember your thread about you and your sister having an argument where you were both playing by different rules? You were on the standard enlightenment side (reason, logic, some things being objectively true) she was on the post modern side (individuals have their own truths, reason and logic are stained with white male supremacy and should be dismissed... "you'll never understand")
    It's the same disagreement on a larger scale

    That’s a fantastic post.



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Siam said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    What a ridiculous society we've become when we claim to judge a person because of a tee shirt he is standing next to for 5 seconds.

    Think about the logic in that.

    How the fuck is that an indication of anything? The virtue signalling about this is pathetic.

    If this is a legitimate criteria for meamingfull judgement, then we're all going to lose

    Seriously, I don’t think many really disagree with you. But above is just not the point.

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?

    Because mainstream media, once a trusted source if truth and reason, screams the loudest, and right into living rooms



  • @Siam said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    @Siam said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    What a ridiculous society we've become when we claim to judge a person because of a tee shirt he is standing next to for 5 seconds.

    Think about the logic in that.

    How the fuck is that an indication of anything? The virtue signalling about this is pathetic.

    If this is a legitimate criteria for meamingfull judgement, then we're all going to lose

    Seriously, I don’t think many really disagree with you. But above is just not the point.

    Question for JP supporters: Why is JP controversial?

    Because mainstream media screams the loudest, and right into living rooms in evenings

    Not accurate or close to the point.



  • Last question:

    Why is the photo above different to one with a guy wearing a swastika t shirt?



  • @MajorRage yes it is. In this instance the communication vessel is more effective than the truth.

    Anyone can see the flaws in the JP is bad argument, yet the transmission of that flawed message becomes more pertinent than the truth



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Last question:

    Why is the photo above different to one with a guy wearing a swastika t shirt?

    Bad faith question. Why is it the same?



  • @MajorRage said in Censorship and the Mosque Shooting:

    Not accurate or close to the point.

    Nope. It’s totally accurate.



  • https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/live-destroy-it-now-accused-gunmans-manifesto-banned-by-chief-censor/

    So I'm a criminal now in this country.

    Is NZ trying to combat facism by implementing it?



  • Chief Censor David Shanks:
    "If you have a copy of this publication, delete or destroy it. If you see it, report it. Do not support the murderous objectives of its author by republishing or distributing it."

    However, Shanks said the office appreciated there would be a range of people who would be in possession of the document for "legitimate" purposes, including education, analysis and in-depth reporting.

    "Those individuals can apply for exemptions, so they can legitimately access and hold a copy."

    Shanks said anyone who sees the document online should report it immediately.

    I want to read it to better understand this psychopath. I watched the video to see what an incident like this looks like so that I'm not "deer in the headlights" like some were. I noted what gunfire sounds like, the need to never, never be stationary in such a circumstance, the split second cognisance required when you see a guy in army fancy dress on a given afternoon.

    I get that some don't want see it, or the manifesto cool, ok. But banning it suggests you think I'm going to read it and be compelled to copy, how dare you associate that with the NZ populace. The arrogance that says, "you're not mature or intelligent enough to learn from this, according to me".

    For the first time in my 50 years, I'm ashamed of my country. It's not a nice feeling.


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