All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga



  • Up to this weekend, I have been very much in the Beauden Barrett camp with Richie Mo'unga as the understudy. But I thought Richie Mo'unga's performance against the Bulls was something of a masterclass. Probably now good enough to be the All Blacks starting 10.

    BB can come of the bench in the second half as defences tire to play 10 or 15.



  • BB is a better goal kicker and has more experience. That’s important at a World Cup.

    Richie can be the impact sub and BB moves to fullback and we get the best of both worlds.



  • @sparky he was good but he was up against a shithouse Bulls team that doesn't come close to reflecting an international quality outfit.

    Hansen isn't about to drop his no1 first five just months out from the World Cup, for a guy who has only played a handful of test matches. Beaudy has performed on the biggest stage before and I think Hansen will be loyal to that fact.

    Mo'unga is the man post RWC, but for me he will be better suited to the 22 jersey this time around.



  • @Kirwan said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    BB is a better goal kicker and has more experience. That’s important at a World Cup.

    Richie can be the impact sub and BB moves to fullback and we get the best of both worlds.

    Honest response is "really?"

    Not saying you're wrong - just have the impression that BB is a bit flakey and Mo'unga is a little more reliable.

    As I say it is an impression only. Will have to investigate further. Or take more interest.

    On a slight tangent I think Jordie Barrett is a better kicker than BB and as I expect him to be in the XV sans DMac (who is also a batter kicker than BB) he should be the first choice goal kicker anyway.

    To answer the question though I think I'm leaning Mo'unga.



  • @booboo Richie spent the opening rounds kicking at around 35%. Imagine if whatever technical fault that was returned in a WC knockout?



  • @booboo only flakey because he has to kick on Westpac nearly every week. Has a bloody good % in my eyes when he has to deal with the unpredictable gusts swirling into that stadium. Johnny Sexton said Westpac is one of the hardest (if not the hardest) places to kick in the world and the fact Beaudy has a better kicking % than Mo'unga speaks volumes of his ability.

    But then I would also argue the fact that Jordie looks like a more natural kicker than Beaudy and seems to have a bigger boot.



  • Mo'unga is behind a much better pack than Barrett, with the difference being particularly stark at Super rugby level.

    One point though, Mounga appears take it to the line better and not do the shovel-on passes that Barrett tends to do a lot.



  • @Frank I do agree with the fact that Mo'unga is better than Barrett at managing a rushed defense, but I guess half Barretts problem (at Super level) is that he has Jeff Toomaga Allen in his side and not Owen Franks so is always getting shit pill.



  • Beauden has to be in the starting 15. The only way Mo'unga gets a start is if Beauden plays fullback, which is very unlikely.



  • What a new and innovative topic



  • If the coaching team still want that 'two playmakers' scenario they showed us most of last year then the only way to achieve that now is BB to fullback and Richie to run the cutter.

    My backline:

    9 Smith
    10 Mo'unga
    12 ALB
    13 Goodhue
    11 Ioane
    14 Smith
    15 B Barrett

    21 Perenara
    22 Crotty / SBW
    23 J Barrett



  • @mariner4life said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    What a new and innovative topic

    Like those discussions pre-RWC 2015 on whether Dan Carter should be in the AB starting XV....



  • I think this whole 'better pack' thing is over blown. Mo'unga plays behind probably the best pack in the competition, sure. But the 'canes are in the conversation for the number two pack in the competition. The last time that the canes and crusaders played the canes forwards shaded the crusaders (TJ Perenara even commented post match on getting consistently good ball).



  • The Awesome thing about this debate we have 2 Fantastic First Fives great One - Two punch other countries don’t have they would kill for either Player at the WC.



  • Aslong as we win the WC, I don't care who wears what tbh.



  • @Canes4life said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    Aslong as we win the WC, I don't care who wears what tbh.

    As long as I’m mayor I don’t care where.



  • Fox or Frano?
    Mehrts or Carlos?
    We get these every generation.



  • @Salacious-Crumb said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    Fox or Frano?
    Mehrts or Carlos?
    We get these every generation.

    Other 1st 5 debates that have been around in my lifetime:
    Carter or Evans
    Cruden or Barrett
    Donald or Lucky



  • @shark said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    If the coaching team still want that 'two playmakers' scenario they showed us most of last year then the only way to achieve that now is BB to fullback and Richie to run the cutter.

    My backline:

    9 Smith
    10 Mo'unga
    12 ALB
    13 Goodhue
    11 Ioane
    14 Smith
    15 B Barrett

    21 Perenara
    22 Crotty / SBW
    23 J Barrett

    I'm in the BB at 10 camp, but fuck that's a dangerous backline.



  • Hansen obviously has a fascination and investment with Beauden at 10, but when they are playing for all the cookies trying to close out the English and Irish tests last year who was playing 10 for most of the second half?

    I would start with Mo'unga, those tests and the history of the RWC have shown that once you lose your structure under pressure it is nearly impossible to wrestle back. Barrett is an outstanding player but I have no faith in him marshaling this team around the paddock against an organized defence.



  • Lots of good arguments for RM to start but I think they will stick with BB at 10 , RM is a certainty for the bench now that Dmac is done ,

    RM to come on , BB to FB ,



  • Barrett at fly half is something of a game changer. Usually you’d want your 10 to be orchestrating things to bring your strike runners into space, but he IS one of the strike runners. Are we seeing a paradigm shift in the way the game is played or is he just a freakishly gifted athlete. Whatever, he has to start somewhere. The question is where.



  • I'd be happy if the started Mounga over Barrett but not too worried if other way round.

    I get the impression that BB looks flaky under real pressure. In saying that, I don't know if I have seen Mounga cope well under pressure?



  • Why doesn't Mounga move to fullback?



  • @Hooroo said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    I get the impression that BB looks flaky under real pressure. In saying that, I don't know if I have seen Mounga cope well under pressure?

    No 10 looks good when their time and space gets shut down.

    For all of our veterans, we need them there for (hopefully) three big games in September. Hansen and Co will have an opinion on that - the entire year will be building to the business end of that tournament.

    Loosies are the concern for me. Read hasn't showed a lot since his back injury; hopefully this year he keeps building. but we're going in 'hoping' someone re-finds their form. When the acid comes on (as it will in a knockout game), then we'll be looking to the experienced heads to keep the team going. Compared to 2015, this is a big step down, and should be a magic tournament as a result.



  • @nzzp said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    @Hooroo said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    I get the impression that BB looks flaky under real pressure. In saying that, I don't know if I have seen Mounga cope well under pressure?

    No 10 looks good when their time and space gets shut down.

    For all of our veterans, we need them there for (hopefully) three big games in September. Hansen and Co will have an opinion on that - the entire year will be building to the business end of that tournament.

    Loosies are the concern for me. Read hasn't showed a lot since his back injury; hopefully this year he keeps building. but we're going in 'hoping' someone re-finds their form. When the acid comes on (as it will in a knockout game), then we'll be looking to the experienced heads to keep the team going. Compared to 2015, this is a big step down, and should be a magic tournament as a result.

    Barrett starts for sure, no doubt about it (barring injury). These types of conversations are only even for taking up time.



  • @Bones said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    Why doesn't Mounga move to fullback?

    I think this was raised with Hansen last year and he dismissed it. A little bit odd given Mo'unga had played plenty of fullback for Canterbury in his early days, but then that's the highest level he's played the position, it was around three years ago when he last played it, and there is the lingering suspicion his defence isn't up to it.



  • @shark Yep, but Hansen said that when they could still pick Dmac. They'll re-think some of their plans. Having said that, Mo'unga is probably the better 10 and BB the better fullback of the two, so why would they move RM to fullback, if they can move BB there?



  • @nzzp I thnk Read is slowly getting back into form, which I guess works in well with the fact we want these guys to peak later in the year.

    We dont usually win Super rugby and the RWC...I guess because of the impact the ABs being rested from super rugby to ensure they are doing what needs to be done for the ABs over super rugby.

    Think if some of our top players are still struggling in TRC we can start looking at this...
    cb4f6372-0347-477c-949d-73f3cfa3b438-image.png



  • @taniwharugby said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    @nzzp I thnk Read is slowly getting back into form, which I guess works in well with the fact we want these guys to peak later in the year.

    We dont usually win Super rugby and the RWC...I guess because of the impact the ABs being rested from super rugby to ensure they are doing what needs to be done for the ABs over super rugby.

    Think if some of our top players are still struggling in TRC we can start looking at this...
    cb4f6372-0347-477c-949d-73f3cfa3b438-image.png

    Since the start of super rugby, half of our world cup wins have come in years that an NZ team has won super rugby!

    But on the other hand two thirds of the times an NZ team has won super rugby we haven't won the rwc.

    If you look across the three teams (let's ignore Argentina for now), in three tournaments the super rugby champion was out performed by at least one other sanzar nation (1999, 2003, 2011), while in two tournaments there has been a 'double crown' of super rugby winners and rwc winners (2007, 2015).

    Ive ignored super whatever in 95, but without looking it up I think it was won by Queensland so that would go into the fail jar.



  • @Cyclops
    was no RWC in 1995, it was S10 or whatever it was?

    We didnt win RWC in 1999 or 2003 (saders won 1999 and Blues 2003?) or 2007 (Bulls?)
    Reds won SR in 2011
    We won SR 2015

    Was bit of a tongue in cheek comment, but my point about the AB influence on proceedings in the super rugby tournament and looking to peak later remains.



  • @mariner4life said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    What a new and innovative topic

    Came here to say that.



  • @antipodean said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    @mariner4life said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    What a new and innovative topic

    Came here to say that.

    Mods can't have been on their game.....



  • @Cyclops said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    I think this whole 'better pack' thing is over blown. Mo'unga plays behind probably the best pack in the competition, sure. But the 'canes are in the conversation for the number two pack in the competition. The last time that the canes and crusaders played the canes forwards shaded the crusaders (TJ Perenara even commented post match on getting consistently good ball).

    If you think that the current Canes pack is challenging the Crusaders pack you are smoking some good stuff.
    Terrible props, promising locks I guess, and Savea, who has to play 8 off scrums as we have no ball runner and Fifita who doesn't really offer much.



  • @Darren that's why we need Evans and Coles back into the fire as soon as possible, along with Fidow who can replace Toomaga (I can't scrum to save myself) Allen.



  • I have a feeling, unfortunately, that Barrett smoking up the place when he replaced Cruden as 10 in the Wales series in 2016 is the worse thing that happened this 4 year RWC cycle.

    Pretty much pushed Cruden to move offshore (although it makes me doubt his fire in his belly anyway). Plus it pushed Barrett to specialising at 10. when his future was still 50/50.

    I think Barrett is the best player in the world, but not the best 10. That horrible clunky cliche by faux rugby intellectuals. Unfortunately I think it's actually true.

    It's hard to get too upset though, when I think his best position is 15, and we already have B Smith there. But did anyone see the Hurricanes set move on the weekend where Barrett moved out wider and someone else came into 10 and Barrett smoked the defence on the outside for a simple try from set piece? and think gee I wish he was playing fullback all the time.

    As for the actual vote. I voted Mo'ouga 10 and Barret 15. But I don't think it will happen. And TBH I probably don't think it should happen now that Crudena and Sopoaga (spit) are off shore and DMac is injured. As a Mo'ouga 10 and Barret 15 and B Smith 14 lineup would still require a 10 on the bench IMO (to not stuff up the structure) and that would probably mean an un-used Josh Ioane in most matches.

    Like the Boks playing with only 21 as they're too light to replace Faf De Klerk and Willie Le Roux. Maybe that's not too big a deal?



  • @Rapido said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    It's hard to get too upset though, when I think his best position is 15, and we already have B Smith there. But did anyone see the Hurricanes set move on the weekend where Barrett moved out wider and someone else came into 10 and Barrett smoked the defence on the outside for a simple try from set piece? and think gee I wish he was playing fullback all the time.

    I'm not sure what try are you talking about? Lam scored from broken play. BB scored from an intercept. And Jordie scored from a ruck after a sweet pass from BB.



  • @Toddy I think the try he means was the week prior vs Rebels.



  • @Darren said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    @Cyclops said in All Blacks starting 10: Beauden Barrett or Richie Mo'unga:

    I think this whole 'better pack' thing is over blown. Mo'unga plays behind probably the best pack in the competition, sure. But the 'canes are in the conversation for the number two pack in the competition. The last time that the canes and crusaders played the canes forwards shaded the crusaders (TJ Perenara even commented post match on getting consistently good ball).

    If you think that the current Canes pack is challenging the Crusaders pack you are smoking some good stuff.
    Terrible props, promising locks I guess, and Savea, who has to play 8 off scrums as we have no ball runner and Fifita who doesn't really offer much.

    You’d think Fifita would be tearing the joint up after being given another chance despite his controversial comments about not liking to hit rucks etc. What a silly bugger for not doing so......

    Or maybe just a brilliant athlete but shit rugby player.



  • Fifita looked great when he burst onto the scene. But now doesn't offer a whole lot, it's very frustrating as he has the ability.
    He is not great running the ball into contact, doesn't have dominant defense, doesn't seem to get himself into space for some reason, I'm guessing he gets stuck in too much tight stuff as our tight forwards just are not much chop.


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