Refuge for the positive.....



  • Soooooo over the naysayers and doomdayers of NZ rugby.
    We got soundly beaten last night, due to some ill discipline. The thing about ill discipline is that can become a habit.. but like all habits it can be broken.
    For the last few decades any NZ rugby fan with any sort of brain knows that during world cup years, we are repeatedly told that the world cup is all that matters, and that is mostly correct, I see enough talent an experience in this AB team to not be concerned. I am exactly the same amount of nervous about the WC as I would be we had won easily last night.
    SA are a danger, but SA have always been a danger, but if, and it likely we will as we have better players, we beat them in the opening game, we are destined for a QF against Scotland, and that is a good QF to have. If we win that, and it likely we will as we have better players, then we are TWO games from world champions, and anyone who thinks this AB team isnt capable and indeed likely to beat any other side, is kidding themselves.
    I have actually seen some really good signs over the last couple of weeks, just more crap, but I am confident the crap will be eliminated.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback that is a very rational viewpoint Baron. The basis is there, we just aren't putting it all together. Yet.



  • All this talk about the RWC. I'm a lot more worried about the Bledisloe in a week.



  • I think we've seen a few poor - for their standard - performances from the ABs lately.

    I expect the rockets from the coaching staff, along with the grim refusal to lose at Eden Park, will see a very different effort from the ABs next week.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback Excellent post.

    With the exception of South Africa and Wales, I don't see other nations having as good players as New Zealand and certainly not better.

    But several other nations seem to have found game plans that maximise their strengths and can produce under pressure. Ireland did this against us last year and Australia yesterday. Last time the All Blacks delivered that was in Cardiff in November 2017 against Wales.

    All of the All Blacks problems are fixable, especially so if there was the right leadership. Which is why performances like last night's are so frustrating.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    SA are a danger, but SA have always been a danger, but if, and it likely we will as we have better players, we beat them in the opening game, we are destined for a QF against Scotland, and that is a good QF to have. If we win that, and it likely we will as we have better players, then we are TWO games from world champions, and anyone who thinks this AB team isnt capable and indeed likely to beat any other side, is kidding themselves.

    This first part overlooks just how badly they've been playing for so long and their repeated inability to summon a good performance when they identify a fixture ahead of time as a big game (Lions, England, Ireland, this week).

    But the second part does get overlooked - Ireland, England or Wales still have to not trip over themselves like they have almost every other tournament and Australia or South Africa who I'd argue have less of a mental block with the ABs and the RWC have to not get tipped up en route to a final as well.

    Still, it's going to be a different tournament, in the past three possibly four RWCs we've gone into it thinking if the ABs just play their A game they can't be bowled. I'm not so sure they have the highest ceiling any more and we haven't seen their A game since 2017 so its a moot point anyway. Sure they can still win, but it's going to be South Africa 2007 where everyone else falls over and we don't.

    Like @KiwiMurph said - Bledisloe first, worry about the RWC after that.



  • @NTA said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    I expect the rockets from the coaching staff, along with the grim refusal to lose at Eden Park, will see a very different effort from the ABs next week.

    I expect us to win well, regardless of who we pick, partially for that reason. But also because I expect the Aussie pack will struggle to hit the same standards two weeks in a row.

    @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    anyone who thinks this AB team isnt capable and indeed likely to beat any other side, is kidding themselves.

    We are still favourites against any side. However are our selections closing the gap for other sides?

    There is no evidence that Test rugby is loosening in the last couple of years. In fact, direct packs with strong defences that choke sides are getting rewarded.

    It's seems like we are trying to play likes it's the last 20mins.. This is when our (usually) superior reserves blow people away and we finish with two play makers and add some mobility to the pack.
    I do not see any evidence that this works from minute one.

    Can we still win doing this? Yes, but we rely more on individual brilliance and the chances of upsets goes up

    I do agree that there are some easy fixes though



  • The positive for me is that we have the perfect preparation in a Do or Die game for a trophy we have held since 2002 for the Do or Die games at the RWC for a trophy we have held since 2011. Time for the 2019 All Blacks to deliver.



  • I definitely think they can murder any side if they click, but the tactics and execution are badly lacking. Other sides have figured us out and are just holding onto the pill. Shocking discipline also doesn't help. The cattle are there, but FFS my kingdom for even 60 minutes of decent footy from them.

    Looking at the game yesterday, ALB should have held that ball. He does, try time. SB doesn't get sent, we win pretty easily imho.That obviously doesn't hide some glaring deficiencies, but it's not the disaster some are making it out to be. Same thing probably would have happened in the lost test in 2015 if we'd had 14 men for an entire half.



  • One of the strange things is people are acting like because we are not red-hot favourites for the World Cup we can't win it. If we used that logic, no-one could win the cup. Welcome to the majority of sporting competitions. Most of them are meant to be close. We are in with a chance - as much of a chance as any other.

    It's bloody hilarious reading actual analysis from people saying "Mounga isn't international standard" or saying the same thing about Scott Barrett. Mounga is better than most starting tens for 6N/RC teams. The best one was that, Hansen is a shit coach and just inherited the success from Henry. Yeah, right. If Hansen was a shit coach, it wouldn't take 8 years to find out.

    Having said all of this, last night was a disaster. We need to have a big re-think but I still back Hansen to do it. Let's not forget we are trying to win the toughest rugby competition three times in a row. It's a tough ask in any sport. Even if Hansen gets the tactics and selections right someone might get red carded in the first minute and none of it will matter.



  • My car once had a fault. It was a tiny little thing, but very hard to pin down, and it took quite a few trips to the mechanic before it was finally sorted.

    Someone looking at the car would have gone --it's a perfectly good car, all the necessary bits are there. It just wouldn't start some mornings.

    Eventually, once sorted, it went back to being a really good car. The key there is "once sorted".

    Oh, and I had to take it to a second mechanic to find the problem.



  • Screw it, I'll post it here, as this is just a one eyed optimistic view of the world. I don't think this is entirely accurate, but I'm throwing it out there.

    Steve Hansen is the genius we need. He's keeping our powder so dry that when we unleash our tactics at the RWC, no-one will expect them.

    Think about it - how do yo uplan to beat the ABs. Aside from just playing a tremendous physical game, kicking your goals, hoping for some opportunistic tries or a card or two ... what's our game plan? WE DON'T HAVE ONE. That's the goddamn genius of it; no one knows what's coming.

    Rush defences get beaten by hard physical running near the ruck, and a dominant pack of forwards just rolling forward pick and go, pick and go. Fark it, I don't care if we do that for 80 minutes three times in a row; winning is winning.

    So there you have it. He's playing 4D chess while we're playing checkers. We're just going to pull one out of the bag and win the Cup again.

    Also, I don't feel particularly better having tried to write this down... not convinced at all that we can change it up when needed any more. Going to be a cracking cup though, going in with low expectations and any success is on the upside.



  • Oz played well and despite some performances of late are still a 1st tier side. We were a man down for an entire half, no team can win against a top tier team under those conditions. The score blew out because unlike some other teams we thought we'd give it a crack anyway.

    The real test is this weekend. Are oz the real deal? Are the AB's a spent force?



  • @nzzp said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    Screw it, I'll post it here, as this is just a one eyed optimistic view of the world. I don't think this is entirely accurate, but I'm throwing it out there.

    Steve Hansen is the genius we need. He's keeping our powder so dry that when we unleash our tactics at the RWC, no-one will expect them.

    Think about it - how do yo uplan to beat the ABs. Aside from just playing a tremendous physical game, kicking your goals, hoping for some opportunistic tries or a card or two ... what's our game plan? WE DON'T HAVE ONE. That's the goddamn genius of it; no one knows what's coming.

    Rush defences get beaten by hard physical running near the ruck, and a dominant pack of forwards just rolling forward pick and go, pick and go. Fark it, I don't care if we do that for 80 minutes three times in a row; winning is winning.

    So there you have it. He's playing 4D chess while we're playing checkers. We're just going to pull one out of the bag and win the Cup again.

    Also, I don't feel particularly better having tried to write this down... not convinced at all that we can change it up when needed any more. Going to be a cracking cup though, going in with low expectations and any success is on the upside.

    ^^^ Hey Fern, I’ll have what he’s having. ^^^



  • The positive I will take from this result is that I have been so bored with Rugby Championship and Bled for the past few years.

    It's nice to see Aussie and South Africa really competitive again.

    It will be nice to be nervous with anticipation this weekend. I haven't looked forward to a game against Aussie in years and I can't wait for the team naming and the game!



  • @Hooroo said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    The positive I will take from this result is that I have been so bored with Rugby Championship and Bled for the past few years.

    It's nice to see Aussie and South Africa really competitive again.

    It will be nice to be nervous with anticipation this weekend. I haven't looked forward to a game against Aussie in years and I can't wait for the team naming and the game!

    That is indeed a positive. As long as it's them improving, not us going back to the pack.



  • The way we don't compete for possession at the breakdown, and then the way we are so frivolous with possession when we do have it drives me crazy.

    The positive ..... last few years - is that often the teams dominating possession lose. E.g. When the boot is on the other foot (V SAF in Wellington last year, Lions 2nd and 3rd test IIRC, and any Auckland Blues game ....) the team 'playing all the rugby' loses and the team defending wins.

    I don't like this trend, though .....



  • @Kirwan said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    That is indeed a positive. As long as it's them improving, not us going back to the pack.

    Their first 40 at the weekend suggested that both were happening - we were good defensively, but they played really really well. Will be such an open RWC, with 6 teams with a good chance, and another couple as outsiders (france, argentina)



  • @nzzp said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    @Kirwan said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    That is indeed a positive. As long as it's them improving, not us going back to the pack.

    Their first 40 at the weekend suggested that both were happening - we were good defensively, but they played really really well. Will be such an open RWC, with 6 teams with a good chance, and another couple as outsiders (france, argentina)

    Were we good defensively? I thought the missed tackles started then, and I remember Hodge going right through us.



  • @Kirwan said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    @nzzp said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    @Kirwan said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    That is indeed a positive. As long as it's them improving, not us going back to the pack.

    Their first 40 at the weekend suggested that both were happening - we were good defensively, but they played really really well. Will be such an open RWC, with 6 teams with a good chance, and another couple as outsiders (france, argentina)

    Were we good defensively? I thought the missed tackles started then, and I remember Hodge going right through us.

    I guess I'd say good considering 🙂 Given how many tackles we slipped off, and how they were running, going into the last minute only conceding 13 points was pretty good!



  • @nzzp scramble defence was great, good attitude and all that. Conceding all those linebreaks and falling off the first up tackles, not great.



  • I would be more positive if i could remember the last time the All Blacks played well



  • @Kirwan said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    @nzzp scramble defence was great, good attitude and all that. Conceding all those linebreaks and falling off the first up tackles, not great.

    fair call.

    This is the refuge for the positive thread though, so try re-framing that:

    WE were Great at conceding line breaks, our falling off tackles was a spectacular swan dive of beauty, and everyone got a certificate of participation.



  • @mariner4life said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    I would be more positive if i could remember the last time the All Blacks played well

    Hey negative nellies.... fuck off.. this is a refuge for the POSITIVE, there are a plethora of other threads to tell each other shit we are.



  • @Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    @mariner4life said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    I would be more positive if i could remember the last time the All Blacks played well

    Hey negative nellies.... fuck off.. this is a refuge for the POSITIVE, there are a plethora of other threads to tell each other shit we are.

    my bad

    fundamentally, i actually agree with you. We are as likely to win the World Cup as any of the other top sides.

    And a fair bit of the chat at the moment is entirely reminiscent of 2015, where questions were asked.

    The best rugby of our players is collectively still better than our opponents, we just have to have a bit of faith that this best is still coming. And to be fair it better start this weekend.



  • @mariner4life said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    We are as likely to win the World Cup as any of the other top sides.

    More likely IMO

    ..and thats if we continue with the same selections/tactics

    We can improve our chances even more if we make a few adjustments though



  • Plenty of fapping about that Wallabies on the radio this morning. The fact that they played against 14 players for 40 minutes only mentioned as an aside. The fact is that they were only 4 ahead and had scored only one try with 80% possession. If ALB hadn't totally farked that intercept they may not have even been leading.

    Again that doesn't disguise the fact that the ABs were several colours of shit for much of that first half, but they still got 2 tries with almost zero ball. I think the result would have been similar in 2015 if a player had been sent. Shit we shipped 14 points in 10 minutes when Ben FA was carded in the final. The game this weekend will be a better indication of where both we and Aus are at.



  • Question is if SB wasn’t sent off ALB got the intercept we probably would have won
    Would we all be as negative.
    The coaches are my concern I think the players are in confusion in what we are trying to achieve.
    You think with Hansens experience he will strip the game plan back and give the players positive direction to get some confidence in them.
    If that happens we spank the wallabies and win the WC.



  • @Chris said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    The coaches are my concern I think the players are in confusion in what we are trying to achieve.
    You think with Hansens experience he will strip the game plan back and give the players positive direction to get some confidence in them.
    If that happens we spank the wallabies and win the WC.

    To put a positive spin on the current situation, that was the talk in the leadup to the 2015 RWC where the ABs weren't impressive in the pool games. We later found out what was happening behind the scenes with inter-squad games etc.



  • @Bovidae said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    @Chris said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    The coaches are my concern I think the players are in confusion in what we are trying to achieve.
    You think with Hansens experience he will strip the game plan back and give the players positive direction to get some confidence in them.
    If that happens we spank the wallabies and win the WC.

    To put a positive spin on the current situation, that was the talk in the leadup to the 2015 RWC where the ABs weren't impressive in the pool games. We later found out what was happening behind the scenes with inter-squad games etc.

    KEEPING OUR POWDER DRY!

    alt text



  • This thread is again open for new applicants..



  • Please let me in, as stated on the bled 2 thread, my wrongness knows no bounds! So happy



  • What do we do for Tonga?

    Wheel out reserves surely, give Crotty some game time.

    At least the squad is named after the match. Would like to see Jacobsen get a start.



  • @Billy-Tell said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    What do we do for Tonga?

    Stay positive is what we do



  • @Billy-Tell Yep, all players who've had little game time: Crotty, S Barrett, J Barrett, Reece, Bridge, the third hooker, Weber. Also Laulala, Pat T, Hemopo if they makes the squad etc



  • I'd give Ioane a run.



  • P.S. pretty sure I didn't contribute to this thread coz wasn't able to be 100% positive.

    I'm usyally the most optimistic of fans but performance had been down so I had begun to doubt.

    So kudos to @Baron-Silas-Greenback and those who were.



  • Still not convinced



  • @Old-Samurai-Jack said in Refuge for the positive.....:

    Still not convinced

    But you’re a grumpy old fella



  • Got to be Happy 8 changes all went well in a pressure game
    Bridge and Reece handled the pressure game really well big Bonus.
    Read best he’s been for 2 years
    RM/BB combo with 50 % ball looks the goods
    LFs Awesome Read back to his physical best adds a lot, complements Ardie and Sam
    Retallick back for WC we hope
    All is good roll on the WC
    No injuries please through to the Final.


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