Euro qualifier stopped twice for Racism



  • I figure this is probably best in the politics forum to avoid our more sensitive readers.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/live/football/49377338

    I haven't been able to find what exactly happened, except 'racism' which led to folk being ejected. Also management making sure the players were 'ok'.

    I can't for the life if me work out how bad racism must be to halt an international football game. I also can't envisage any words that would require management to make sure multi-millionaire football players (who were dominating) feel-feels aren't too hurt.

    Am I missing something or is this another example of something being blown all out of proportion due to an exaggerated media and a fragile culture that puts victims on a pedestal?

    Sure eject bad crowd behavior, no issue with that, but this seems way overboard and only serves to expose more people to whatever this 'racism' was.



  • @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    I figure this is probably best in the politics forum to avoid our more sensitive readers.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/live/football/49377338

    I haven't been able to find what exactly happened, except 'racism' which led to folk being ejected. Also management making sure the players were 'ok'.

    I can't for the life if me work out how bad racism must be to halt an international football game. I also can't envisage any words that would require management to make sure multi-millionaire football players (who were dominating) feel-feels aren't too hurt.

    Am I missing something or is this another example of something being blown all out of proportion due to an exaggerated media and a fragile culture that puts victims on a pedestal?

    Sure eject bad crowd behavior, no issue with that, but this seems way overboard and only serves to expose more people to whatever this 'racism' was.

    New protocols say if players a subjected to racism (In this case it is Monkey chants and neo Nazi salutes when the coloured men representing England had the ball) then the captain can let the ref know. He then tells an official and the fans are warned over the PA.

    If it happens again for the second time (Like it did tonight in Sofia) then the PA announces that the third case will lead to abandonment.

    It is all up to the players.

    It's a disgrace in my mind. People shouldn't be subjected to that for playing football.



  • I also know no details but this could be connected to the drive to rid the sport of this type of behaviour from fans (and players). Here has been talk of walk outs mid game from players as there is a feeling that not enough is being done.
    In isolation it is easy to question actions from all sides during one game but when you take into account an overall work environment (which this is) the actions may have relevance.



  • You can drop the quotes fella.

    It was clear as day racism. Monkey chants when the black players got the ball, nazi salutes. It was obvious.

    Football has come a long way, l hope it doesn’t go back the dark ages.



  • @Hooroo Cheers for that, disgusting for sure. But like when a work colleague gets a nickname that clearly bugs him you know it will stick, this plays right into these dickhead fans hands knowing they can really upset the players (I personally think the players aren't super fussed, why would they care about some loser opposition fans?). I'd hate to see a match cancelled surely 99.9% of folk aren't doing this, why give this tiny racist minority power over an important game.



  • @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Hooroo Cheers for that, disgusting for sure. But like when a work colleague gets a nickname that clearly bugs him you know it will stick, this plays right into these dickhead fans hands knowing they can really upset the players (I personally think the players aren't super fussed, why would they care about some loser opposition fans?). I'd hate to see a match cancelled surely 99.9% of folk aren't doing this, why give this tiny racist minority power over an important game.

    All I can say is that you are very ignorant of the situation then if you think the players aren't super fussed.

    It is the players driving this change.

    I have no problem with games being abandoned



  • @Rembrandt that’s not the same mate, not at all.

    I do agree most supporters aren’t like that and it’s a shame they have to lose out as well, but I support the initiative.

    If I was at AB vs SA game and NZ fans were racially abusing the SA players, I’d support them walking off.



  • @Hooroo I can't see it. Multi-millionaire football players care about the thoughts of some backwater 2nd world country fans? Sure maybe they'll play it up for the media but I can't see them crying themselves to sleep at night with their big pile of money and many beautiful women. You surely can't make it to the top of football without being a resilient person.

    I look at it like I would a homeless person who randomly screams abuse at me on the street. He's a nutter, he lives on the street, not going to engage with him, I'm not going to be hurt by his taunts, he's so far beneath me its irrelevant.

    I'm no doubt in the minority here but I think we're just giving too much power to these crazies. I'd much prefer the governing body to give players the right to give it right back to these fans Andrew Mehrton's style when they score. Who's superior now! 6 - nil losers!



  • @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Hooroo I can't see it. Multi-millionaire football players care about the thoughts of some backwater 2nd world country fans? Sure maybe they'll play it up for the media but I can't see them crying themselves to sleep at night with their big pile of money and many beautiful women. You surely can't make it to the top of football without being a resilient person.

    I look at it like I would a homeless person who randomly screams abuse at me on the street. He's a nutter, he lives on the street, not going to engage with him, I'm not going to be hurt by his taunts, he's so far beneath me its irrelevant.

    I'm no doubt in the minority here but I think we're just giving too much power to these crazies. I'd much prefer the governing body to give players the right to give it right back to these fans Andrew Mehrton's style when they score. Who's superior now! 6 - nil losers!

    No point in this conversation any more for me as I just think your ignorant.

    This thread will no doubt implode at some stage but I'll let others be part of that



  • The players have to take a stand because the officials haven't. Google Moise Kean and Cagliari if you want an example of fans being emboldened to continue to act in this way.



  • @Bovidae Now that makes way more sense to me. Officials failing to act so players have to champion it.

    I would have thought commercially it would have been in UEFA's interest to stamp this out at the ground as it looks exceptionally ugly and harms the brand of the game but perhaps they have just been failing at that. In that sense I could see the players acting not so much out of personal insult but more out of a duty to use their position to help remove this ugliness from the game.

    It really shouldn't be up to the players but clearly if the officials aren't acting then they really have no choice.



  • @Rembrandt I guess none of that stuff is mutually exclusive? I mean you can be resilient, rich and have hot wahines, but still be troubled by this sort of stuff, or care strongly about sending a clear message to those ignorant fools as part of trying to make things better for others. Would not be surprised if a number of players care more about how damaging that behaviour can be for others than how it makes them feel personally, but also expect many players have battled against that shit for years, so it still hurts or fucks them off - in spite of being a pro player.

    It's a wee bit of a stretch but it reminds me of the interaction between happiness/humour and depression. Your life can be awesome by any number of metrics, but you can still be depressed or sad.

    The homeless example doesn't fit that well imo, they haven't paid money to come to your game/workplace and give you shit. There seems to be genuine intent behind the fans, rather than it being random. Like someone signing up to a pay only forum or subs only chat or something, purely to troll and be a kunt.



  • England players were racially abused during the previous game against Montenegro.

    There were also incidents of racism by Bulgarian "fans" during their last two games against Czechs and Kosovo to the degree that UEFA ordered sections of the stadium be closed for the game against England (about 10%). The Bulgarian Coach and head of their Football Association both were quite provocative in the build up - denying there was an issue in Sofia - England are worse etc

    Yeah it is tough on the majority of reasonable fans but no sport should accept this type of behaviour and no player should be subjected to it.

    If Bulgaria (and others) can't get their houses in order they should be expelled from UEFA competitions until they do.



  • are you fucking serious??

    Yeah, harden up you soft fluffybunnies, getting called a monkey is fine because you are rich

    it's exactly like having a nickname you don't like

    Give yourself the biggest of uppercuts.

    And don't give me any crap about not being aware of this stuff happening in football all over certain parts of Europe, and the massive amount of work done to get rid of it. You would have to live under a rock not to know.



  • My problem with today's culture is finding racism and outrage where it doesn't exist. Makes terms like racism pretty meaningless.

    This doesn't sound like one of those times. Monkey chants and Nazi salutes is bullshit abuse that the players shouldn't have to endure, I also support them walking off the pitch. Fuck those racist assholes.



  • Ok to try to avoid this becoming a shit show. I'll try and make my point crystal clear, if you want to debate my points I'll happily respond if you want to make up points of view I don't hold and debate them then go for gold but I'm not going to take part.

    1. Racism is extremely bad.
    2. I had never heard of a game being stopped for racism, this surprised me and at the time of posting details were surprisingly vague as to the exact cause.
    3. I don't think it is fair that a game could be cancelled due to the behaviour of a tiny minority of pricks.
    4. I don't think superstar players are personally injured by a tiny minority of opposition fans but as pointed out by @Bovidae officials failure to resolve the problem may have left it to the players to resolve, this is commendable and it is atrocious that UEFA haven't acted to avoid the players having to act.
    5. I don't think we should give racists power over the game. UEFA officials should have been proactively identifying the issues in the crowd and having them removed, leaving this to the players is not fair as to would be punishing fans who aren't part of this ugly group.


  • @Rembrandt Thing is unfortunately in order to stamp out this type of deplorable behaviour then some innocent fans are going to be inconvenienced.

    It isn't just a small group though. It is pretty endemic in too many places unfortunately and the apologist reaction from Bulgarian authorities suggests Bulgaria has a dep rooted problem.

    I was at English football games in the 1980's when racism was much worse than it is today. You don't get change in isolation by banning a few figureheads you have to make the wider society accept that there is an issue. Unfortunately it takes something pretty draconian like banning a team from competition to make that happen.

    Did I feel for Norwich fans when they couldn't follow their team into Europe for the first time ever because of the ban post Heysel. Of course I did, but it was that ban (and Hillsborough) that led to the improvements in stadium design and crowd control and it was that ban that pretty much cured the game of the English disease of hooliganism over the next 5 years



  • @dogmeat You could very well be right.

    From a principled standpoint I am always against punishing innocent people even for an apparent greater good, too social justicy for me.

    I only managed to make it to football games in the UK in the mid 2000's, I didn't see any racism but there was certainly an undercurrent of violence and pretty over-the-top abuse towards opposition crowds which put me right off the game. Especially compared to the joy of a rugby game at Twickers where you'll sit next to the opposition and likely buy each other beers between good natured ribbing as the game unfolds.

    I'm guessing in the 80's you might not have had so many black players? I'd like to think even the most ardent racist football fan might change his tune when the black star player of his team scores the championship winning goal. Hard to hate someone for their skin colour and idolise them for their play I would have thought.



  • @Rembrandt No innocent people are being punished that I can see. This particular case has been big news in the UK for some time, and recently there has been a lot of coverage of the players' unhappiness with the abuse they have been taking. The team have been quite clear they would walk off if it wasn't stopped and that includes the ones who aren't black and the team management. The response from fans has been overwhelmingly supportive. Everyone seems to be agreed that being paid to entertain doesn't mean you've sold your soul and waive your rights to be treated with dignity and respect in your workplace.

    If the players, team, managers, sponsors, the FA and fans are behind this I'm not getting why it's worrying you.



  • Just so we are clear, Uefa do have a protocol for this, it was followed.

    Uefa have a three-step protocol for dealing with racism at matches.

    The first is for the referee to ask the stadium announcer to demand supporters stop.

    If it continues, the referee can take the players off the pitch and into the dressing room, while another announcement is made.

    If that does not stop the abuse, the match will then be abandoned.

    Consider also, that the stadium was partially empty do to Uefa sanctions for previous racist abuse by Bulgarian fans.

    Get a read of this, written as a warning before last night's game

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/10/12/nazi-flags-fans-swastikas-pro-racism-banners-exploring-club/

    Not sure there are many in the crowd you would call "innocent"



  • For clarity.

    'Innocent people' as in a law abiding non-racist family attending a game.
    'Punished' a game being called off because of a tiny minority of jerks, the jerks are punished but so are the majority of fans who aren't jerks.

    Now to be fair I didn't watch the game and maybe I have too much faith in the average Bulgarian (have only met a few, seemed nice enough) as I'm assuming the overwhelming majority aren't chanting Nazis. If that's not the case then I'm happy to put my hand up and say I'm wrong and that the game should have been shut down.



  • @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    For clarity.

    'Innocent people' as in a law abiding non-racist family attending a game.
    'Punished' a game being called off because of a tiny minority of jerks, the jerks are punished but so are the majority of fans who aren't jerks.

    Now to be fair I didn't watch the game and maybe I have too much faith in the average Bulgarian (have only met a few, seemed nice enough) as I'm assuming the overwhelming majority aren't chanting Nazis. If that's not the case then I'm happy to put my hand up and say I'm wrong and that the game should have been shut down.

    I love that you have such a strong opinion you know nothing about.

    You've seen a headline and essentially ranted about a travesty of a potential cancelling. I'm surprised this hasn't turned into a thread that lacks of conversation and only had silly tweets and you tubes references as the language of conversation.

    But from what I have seen in this part of the forum, it is very par for the course, so silly me for getting involved in the first place



  • Rembrandt does raise a good point about not having to be a compulsory victim.

    There needs to be a message, in conjunction with other strategies, that demonstrates that ignoring stupid talk and words needn't "ruin" your life or identity. A strength and resolve from within.

    At the moment there is only pleading with authorities and finger pointing. Expecting the authorities to fix this unfixable issue ( people talking mean to people), or upholding the law is obviously not working.

    And the pointing out of racism everywhere has worsened the world at a time when humans are less racist than ever.

    As for a solution- look for something that worked before, like the Norwich example. Ban the clubs and watch them sort it out as the coffers diminish.

    Demanding racist taunts just stop is like any other futile demand to do with law and order- it will only be heeded by people who would never vilify in the first place.



  • @Hooroo I'm not sure you love it at all!

    Yes had a strong opinion on it, tempered somewhat through some good discussion and now have a different perspective than when I started. This is how people learn and grow.

    It doesn't have to be a battle mate.



  • @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    It doesn't have to be a battle mate.

    I don't understand the battle part What doesn't have to be a battle? Racism?



  • @Hooroo said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    It doesn't have to be a battle mate.

    I don't understand the battle part What doesn't have to be a battle? Racism?

    Your disregard for the political forum and some of its posters. I welcome your view but you don't have to post if you think it inevitable a discussion devolving as being just par for the course here. I enjoy discussion and getting different points of view especially on sensitive subjects but I understand that it's not for everyone so many just put this on ignore.



  • I watched the game.

    During the first half, there was a group in the Bulgarian section of the crowd making noises whenever one of the English players of African-Caribbean heritage got the ball. Tyrone Mings spoke to the linesman Gareth Southgate spoke to the UEFA official. The game stopped. Warnings were given. The noises started up again. The game was stopped again. The TV cameras caught these guys making monkey chants and gestures and making Nazi salutes. There was a No Respect banner (UEFA's anti-racism campaign is called Respect). About 150 people (hooded and wearing black) were asked to leave at half time. There were more Nazi salutes as they left.

    The Bulgarian captain went out during half time and pleaded with the crowd not to make any more racist chanting.

    There were some isolated boos in the second half. But nothing like the open, organised displays of racism that went on in the first half.

    England won 6-0.

    Good comments from ex-England international Ian Wright who was one of ITV pundits on full-time. His generation of black players were taught to be like Martin Luther King and turn the other cheek. It didn't stop racism. This generation of player are much more savvy and Malcolm X-influenced. They realise that to defeat racism and racist scumbags, you need to deploy any means necessary.

    Anyone defending Nazi salutes and thugs making monkey gestures at BAME players needs to give themselves a massive uppercut and learn some history.

    Those of us who know our history will never rest until racism is defeated.



  • @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Hooroo said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    It doesn't have to be a battle mate.

    I don't understand the battle part What doesn't have to be a battle? Racism?

    Your disregard for the political forum and some of its posters. I welcome your view but you don't have to post if you think it inevitable a discussion devolving as being just par for the course here. I enjoy discussion and getting different points of view especially on sensitive subjects but I understand that it's not for everyone so many just put this on ignore.

    But it is par for the course. Or just a tonne of copies of tweets and you tube videos.

    But generally outrage due to ignorance



  • Been a while since a dissection of one of your posts Siam, so lets put a toe in the water ...

    @Siam said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    Rembrandt does raise a good point about not having to be a compulsory victim.

    True, but this isn't some small thing. It's on a global stage. I don't think it should be ignored.

    There needs to be a message, in conjunction with other strategies, that demonstrates that ignoring stupid talk and words needn't "ruin" your life or identity. A strength and resolve from within.

    The players showed strength and resolve from within. They won 6-0. Mings, who was one of the main targets was on his debut for England. In the post match interview, he said he wasn't going to let it ruin his day, which for him was one of joy due to making his debut. He generally looked chuffed too - the perfect role model for this situation.

    At the moment there is only pleading with authorities and finger pointing. Expecting the authorities to fix this unfixable issue ( people talking mean to people), or upholding the law is obviously not working.

    And the pointing out of racism everywhere has worsened the world at a time when humans are less racist than ever.

    We'll have to agree to disagree that this was merely mean talk. Things like this does make it feel like for all steps taken forwards, we are taking some back.

    As for a solution- look for something that worked before, like the Norwich example. Ban the clubs and watch them sort it out as the coffers diminish.

    That's EXACTLY what they have been doing. That's why it was only a small section of the crowd.

    Demanding racist taunts just stop is like any other futile demand to do with law and order- it will only be heeded by people who would never vilify in the first place.

    In the first instance you are probably right. However, we are a long way beyond the first instance. Bulgaria will probably play behind closed doors for a couple of games now. That keeps everybody out and punishes all. But lets see whose going to turn up when the doors reopen. I expect there to be some community policing going on.

    On a related note, chatting about it with my spurs colleague this morning. He mentioned about how things have changed a lot. Not sure if you are aware, but a video went viral of a spurs fan who bought his mentally disabled child to the match, and her dancing in the stands after the match. He was saying that could never have happened 10 years ago and the fact that this is normal now shows how much football has cleaned up it's act. It's not perfect, and unlikely ever will be. But it's a long long way ahead of where it was.



  • @sparky Any black players in the Bulgarian team mate, and were they taunted as well?



  • @Siam one guy I saw looked coloured....



  • @Siam said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @sparky Any black players in the Bulgarian team mate, and were they taunted as well?

    Would that have made it better?



  • I don't mind the idea of cancelling the game due to the racist assholes. A bit of mob justice against them wouldn't be a bad thing. Now that their shitty behaviour is having an impact on others I'd hope they start copping more of a backlash and are ostracised from society.



  • @Bones said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Siam one guy I saw looked coloured....

    We were on a parents whatsapp group the other week for a sports event - one Mum messaged everyone saying she saw a kid warming up who looked way too old to be in our kids age group. But that maybe it was ok if he was disabled. And that he DID have one eye a different colour to the other.

    Takes all kinds! 😅



  • @voodoo taking minorities to whole new levels.



  • @mariner4life would have added context.

    They'd have had to cheer if their black player scored

    I don't think any white young person living in a western city can actually be racist in the true sense of the word in 2019. Too much info, too much multiculturalism.

    This is a group of violence seekers before they're dyed in the wool racists, in my opinion. Just another European football hooligan story, as we've witnessed consistently for 50 odd years



  • @Siam said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for Racism:

    @mariner4life would have added context.

    They'd have had to cheer if their black player scored

    I don't think any white young person living in a western city can actually be racist in the true sense of the word in 2019. Too much info, too much multiculturalism.

    This is a group of violence seekers before they're dyed in the wool racists, in my opinion. Just another European football hooligan story, as we've witnessed consistently for 50 odd years

    Well that makes it all so much better



  • Also did you read the article I posted? Bulgarian club fans chucked bananas at their own African striker.



  • @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for Racism:

    @Hooroo said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    It doesn't have to be a battle mate.

    I don't understand the battle part What doesn't have to be a battle? Racism?

    Your disregard for the political forum and some of its posters. I welcome your view but you don't have to post if you think it inevitable a discussion devolving as being just par for the course here. I enjoy discussion and getting different points of view especially on sensitive subjects but I understand that it's not for everyone so many just put this on ignore.

    Mate it's worrying that you think you're getting varied points of view on the political forum. All the reasonable posters give up on it, and people have it on ignore because it is ignorant.



  • @reprobate said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for Racism:

    @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for Racism:

    @Hooroo said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    @Rembrandt said in Euro qualifier stopped twice for 'Racism':

    It doesn't have to be a battle mate.

    I don't understand the battle part What doesn't have to be a battle? Racism?

    Your disregard for the political forum and some of its posters. I welcome your view but you don't have to post if you think it inevitable a discussion devolving as being just par for the course here. I enjoy discussion and getting different points of view especially on sensitive subjects but I understand that it's not for everyone so many just put this on ignore.

    Mate it's worrying that you think you're getting varied points of view on the political forum. All the reasonable posters give up on it, and people have it on ignore because it is ignorant.

    Agree.... and this topic confirms that some people on here are as racist and ignorant as I thought.

    Monkey noises and neo nazi salutes by a large section of the crowd is unacceptable, I’m happy they called off the game


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