Cannabis debate



  • Where do ferners sit? I haven't heard any argument for a yes vote that makes sense to me. Places I've been in the world that decriminalised cannabis, legalisation doesn't make those cities more desirable to be in. Legalising cannabis to keep Maori out of prison is a crazy reason to do it. Improving discretion of the police to avoid prosecution in cases of possession seems like a better way to me. Considering the way kids can walk into dairies and buy ciggies and booze, and the way the party drug experience turned out, I think its unrealistic to expect people to act responsibly if the floodgates are opened.

    Shane Jones has the right idea, he'll vote no because the Greens want it 😆

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/cannabis-referendum-shane-jones-voting-no-because-the-greens-are-voting-yes.html



    • Current approach is doing jack towards reduction of use and touch points with gangs etc.
    • treating it as a health and education issue, funded via taxation would be a more positive approach.
    • where it has been decriminalization overall use has trended downwards, with two (?) States in the US seeing youth usage dropping.
    • $$$ heaps of tax and savings in govt spending with fewer people in prison and courts due to weed related events. Massive reduction for police - then they can hit P and organized crime harder imo.
    • industry and medical benefits for local markets and hopefully international markets.
    • smoke free is a tension, can't argue that away. But there are plenty of non-smoking ways to enjoy cannabis. Plus we ain't getting moral in booze so... that one is tounge in cheek tho.
    • fear, so much of (older ahem) people's 'knowledge around weed is hangovers from reefer madness, makes u crazy, gateway, a loser drug etc, etc.
    • noting that it absolutely has bad outcomes for some, but that's all the more reason to reframe as a health/education challenge imo. Reducing stigma and criminality would likely see more people getting help.
    • plenty of productive and otherwise law abiding folks run the risk of conviction for enjoying weed.
    • I feel the list goes on personally 😁


  • And 'floodgates' being opened is exactly the alarmist language feeding the reefer madness fear imo. 80%+ of folks have tried it - or a figure pretty close to that.

    It has to be 20+ imo and big penalties for anyone selling outside if the rules. Regulated market offers benefits around quality also. No flysprayed tinny from your local gang house etc.



  • I'm for it despite the greens position. Got some mates who have been pretty screwed with criminal charges relating to weed, I don't feel its a significant danger to society. If we can get to a position where you can buy weed legally without finding yourself in environments with the kind of folk that will try to upsell you to other far more dangerous substances then I think that is a good thing. I'd like to see police have more time to concentrate on worse things. By big concern with legalisation is increased use in under 20 year olds and accidents resulting from people under the influence, maybe there are ways to mitigate that once legalised.



  • @Rembrandt said in Cannabis debate:

    My big concern with legalisation is increased use in under 20 year olds and accidents resulting from people under the influence, maybe there are ways to mitigate that once legalised.

    This. As for mitigation, is that going to be like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted?



  • Only extra requirement is for better drug testing for drivers.



  • @Paekakboyz said in Cannabis debate:

    • Current approach is doing jack towards reduction of use and touch points with gangs etc.
    • treating it as a health and education issue, funded via taxation would be a more positive approach.
    • where it has been decriminalization overall use has trended downwards, with two (?) States in the US seeing youth usage dropping.
    • $$$ heaps of tax and savings in govt spending with fewer people in prison and courts due to weed related events. Massive reduction for police - then they can hit P and organized crime harder imo.
    • industry and medical benefits for local markets and hopefully international markets.
    • smoke free is a tension, can't argue that away. But there are plenty of non-smoking ways to enjoy cannabis. Plus we ain't getting moral in booze so... that one is tounge in cheek tho.
    • fear, so much of (older ahem) people's 'knowledge around weed is hangovers from reefer madness, makes u crazy, gateway, a loser drug etc, etc.
    • noting that it absolutely has bad outcomes for some, but that's all the more reason to reframe as a health/education challenge imo. Reducing stigma and criminality would likely see more people getting help.
    • plenty of productive and otherwise law abiding folks run the risk of conviction for enjoying weed.
    • I feel the list goes on personally 😁

    Was just about to type this word for word 😎



  • @Crucial yep, they need to establish a testable level of impairment, not just that its in your system or not. I think oz has made some advances with this after there initial approach was challenged.



  • I was always for it, until I started talking with a friend from Colorado who is a pain specialist. He recently wrote a book about it:

    https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030459673

    He is very anti against the way they have done things in Colorado - basically as the strength of product went wild, and marijuana ended up in all sorts of other products (eg, gummy bears) which end up in kids hands etc etc. I think I posted about it ages ago so I’ll see if I can dig it up.

    Based on my conversations with him, my answer would depend exactly on what can be done (and can’t be) and how this law works to protect vulnerable groups.

    Edit: a link to some of the things he’s discussed (eg in babies/young kids). Given some of the problems in NZ, we have to expect similar issues.

    https://www.wyomed.org/colorado-springs-physician-offers-presentation-legalization-pot-colorado/



  • @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @Rembrandt said in Cannabis debate:

    My big concern with legalisation is increased use in under 20 year olds and accidents resulting from people under the influence, maybe there are ways to mitigate that once legalised.

    This. As for mitigation, is that going to be like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted?

    I'm not up with the latest advancements. If they can test 'under the influence' then that solves some of the problems. As for under 20 year olds getting it, I know there was no issue getting it when I was young. Maybe other peoples experience is different or things have changed since then. I think the best you can do is give your kids advice and hope they make good decisions. I would rather teens getting hold of weed that met certain criteria than those dodgy legal highs or whatever the local tinnie house is peddling.



  • @gt12 said in Cannabis debate:

    I was always for it, until I started talking with a friend from Colorado who is a pain specialist. He recently wrote a book about it:

    I've talked myself into voting 'yes'. I don't like cannabis, and it causes harm - the question is whether it causes more harm to the community by being illegal. A bit like prostitution; it's not always a positive thing, but is it worse to be open, legal and taxed, or illegal and done anyway.

    It's not great either way, but I reflected on a mate who escaped a cannabis conviction by the skin of his teeth, and then went on to a successful career in private and public sector. Would he have had that with a conviction? Probably not. And yet, 80%+ of the population have tried it at some stage.

    I don't think teh bill is great, but I think it's better (on balance) than the status quo. You can tell I'm not an enthusiastic voter about this at all 🙂

    Should get a thread going on euthanasia. Hosteda few doctors last ngiht, and none were keen on it at all. And yet that one sounds like it's relatively uncontroversial by comparison...



  • @nzzp I take the same simplistic view on euthanasia as I do on legalising pot. Basically that we should be starting from a position of "yes" then figuring out how to make it work.

    To me, telling someone that they should have to continuing living a life they no longer want to live, even in in circumstances where they no longer have control of their faculties, is just extraordinary. Twlling them that there is no way for them to gain assistance in ending their lives, is beyond comprehension to me.

    Yes there is lots to work through. It shouldn't be easy. You dont want people to feel forced or obligated because they are a burden. But let's start from "yes" then figure that stuff out.



  • @voodoo good call. I don't think the doctors were fundamentally against it - they just think it's a lawyer thing, not a doctor thing. Putting doctors at the heart of it seems to drive going against the hippocratic oath. It's a bit simplistic, but I think it shoudl be done, but as you say, it shouldn't be easy.

    Also, the billboards saying 'no parental cosnent required' is an absolutely gyp ... once you turn 18, no parental consent is needed for any medical or legal procedure. FFS.



  • @gt12 I think it was telling that Maori feature disproportionately in cannabis convictions, and a high percentage of Maori polled in a tvnz poll want cannabis decriminalised. Will it have a positive effect on people in Northland for example?



  • @nzzp I should have added, I haven't seen the detail of the bill proposed (for either actually). And I can totally understand a dr being nervous if all decisions were placed in their hands!





  • @canefan

    I’m somewhat supportive if they can keep it out of edibles and away from kids.

    But I don’t think they can do that.

    I assume that weed will have to move to edibles as the government wants to reduce smoking. I haven’t read the bill so I don’t know what issues are addressed and how, but the law of unintended consequences suggests that we’ll get some negative externalities.



  • I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia



  • @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @gt12 I think it was telling that Maori feature disproportionately in cannabis convictions, and a high percentage of Maori polled in a tvnz poll want cannabis decriminalised. Will it have a positive effect on people in Northland for example?

    Who knows? But I'm really not sure that it will lead to long term significantly higher usage. All those people you speak of, they're all getting weed now, its just that the profits are going to gangs and dealers. They all still have to go to work and drive cars, its not liek they'll become 24/7 slackers. And imagine all that extra tax revenue going into extra policing, including RBT's and the drug testing equivalents?



  • @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔



  • @voodoo possibly a mental thing?

    Those have pretty much always been illegal, typically harder to source so people probably dont come across them as much, where they see weed more commonly so associate the medicinal aspect with the 'seedy druggies' having a joint?

    But yeah, no idea haha



  • @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis



  • @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis

    And that's fine, its a fair debate - but medicinal shouldn't even be discussed in the public domain.



  • @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis

    Maybe start with that and gradually shift.



  • @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis

    And that's fine, its a fair debate - but medicinal shouldn't even be discussed in the public domain.

    I don't even know why they insist on bundling it up. Its a health issue



  • @Kirwan said in Cannabis debate:

    @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis

    Maybe start with that and gradually shift.

    If they are serious about making it legal across the board this would be smart. Better chance of getting it right



  • @Kirwan said in Cannabis debate:

    @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis

    Maybe start with that and gradually shift.

    Not for me mate. I don't see why the public should have any say over what doctors can prescribe. We didn't vote in morphine, we shouldn't be voting out marijuana.

    Recreational is a totally differently of fish, though I'm still in favour of it.



  • @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @Kirwan said in Cannabis debate:

    @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis

    Maybe start with that and gradually shift.

    Not for me mate. I don't see why the public should have any say over what doctors can prescribe. We didn't vote in morphine, we shouldn't be voting out marijuana.

    Recreational is a totally differently of fish, though I'm still in favour of it.

    I think you are confused. I said the public shouldn't be consulted about medicinal. Its a health issue for the professionals. And I agreed with Kirwan that phasing in medicinal first then looking at recreational after might be a good idea



  • Was in the car the other day and an ad came on re the referendum basically saying that if people voted yes then everyone was going to jump in the car while high and kill kids.

    That shit pisses me off to the maximum. I want to hear arguments and facts and stats from both sides of the equation, not bullshit hyperbole. Also, if we can regulate alcohol consumption/punishment for driving while intoxicated etc can't see why regulating cannabis should be so hard. If those in chronic pain can get some relief from a few puffs, then I have to ask why not.



  • @Mokey i think the roadside testing has long been an issue with marijuana in NZ, although as someone mentioned above there are some better testing being used in Aus presently



  • @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    @Mokey i think the roadside testing has long been an issue with marijuana in NZ, although as someone mentioned above there are some better testing being used in Aus presently

    In my opinion we’re really going to need it too. My suspicion is there will be a decent number of people who have little sense of responsibility who will take decriminalisation as a green light (no pun intended!) to use regardless of circumstances.

    Ideally people will use the expected discipline around drinking as a starting point, i.e. don’t drive under the influence, don’t turn up to work with it in your system etc. But some will get that balance wrong and be pissed off when they get sacked for doing something legal, forgetting that there are many things that are legal that you still shouldn’t do at work.



  • @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @Kirwan said in Cannabis debate:

    @canefan said in Cannabis debate:

    @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    I'm a def yes for medicinal cannabis, but am still on the fence re decriminalising it.

    I did have a chuckle reading the article the other day, Whinny saying NZ First would make ciggies cheaper, then had a dig at the making NZ Smoke FRee by 2025 and legalizing weed...

    So if NZ becomes smoke free (Yeah Right) does that make Tobacco illegal then? Assume Weed would be too, for smoking at least?

    Was listening to something the other day and NZ is def not going down the route of some of the US states with gummies and all sorts of products and paraphenalia

    I think its absolutely staggering that anyone could not be for medicinal cannabis, but be ok with being prescribed opioids like oxycontin or morphine...🤔

    I've no problem with medicinal cannabis. I'm yet to be convinced that the government would appropriately manage recreational cannabis

    Maybe start with that and gradually shift.

    Not for me mate. I don't see why the public should have any say over what doctors can prescribe. We didn't vote in morphine, we shouldn't be voting out marijuana.

    Recreational is a totally differently of fish, though I'm still in favour of it.

    I think you are confused. I said the public shouldn't be consulted about medicinal. Its a health issue for the professionals. And I agreed with Kirwan that phasing in medicinal first then looking at recreational after might be a good idea

    Got it 👍



  • Medicinal use of cannabis - yes. If it offers pain relief to those who are suffering then that's clearly a good thing. However, I'm unconvinced that it offers much direct benefit to individuals with neurodegenerative disorders.

    Recreational/Social use of cannabis - on the fence. Heavy use of HTC over time exacerbates the chance of developing many cancers. Sustained cannabis use does damage to the teenage brain and makes it less receptive to learning. However, I generally think what an adult individual does in their own home isn't the business of state.



  • I’ve heard anecdotally that in the places that have legalised weed, teenage use decreased rather than increased. Does anyone have any data on this? They thought the reason was that it took the rebellion factor away.

    The impairment vs trace in system thing needs to be cleared up.

    I don’t want weed cafes in nz but I would like to see it decriminalised.



  • @Hooroo said in Cannabis debate:
    .

    I don’t want weed cafes in nz but I would like to see it decriminalised.

    Why not?

    Is it any worse than seeing 18yr olds stumble out of pubs at 2am? Vomiting in gutters?

    I've been to a bunch of weed cafes and they were all very civil



  • @Hooroo

    See here (linked from a ranked peer-reviewed journal):

    CONFLICTING DATA ON TEENAGE USE
    
    Marijuana use is historically common among adolescents, and the drug has typically been easy to come by regardless of its legal status. Several studies have attempted to gauge its use among teens, but there have been contradictions in the findings as well as potential issues with the methodology.
    
     
    A recent study found that adolescents residing in states with liberal marijuana laws (medical and/or recreational) were more than twice as likely to try alternative means of use-vaping and edibles-than those living in states with stricter laws. The study's lead author, Jacob T. Borodovsky of the Center for Technology and Behavioral Health at the Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth College, explains that this finding reinforces the idea that if marijuana is more available, teens are more likely to try it.
    
     
    But Borodovsky notes that one of the problems associated with studying the effects of marijuana legalization is that laws and oversight differ by state. "New Hampshire has four medical marijuana dispensaries and one of the most restrictive medical marijuana laws in the country," he says, "while California has much looser oversight. So putting New Hampshire and California in the same analysis doesn't make sense. We have to sort this out if we want to figure out how legal dispensaries affect usage."
    
     
    However, other studies have found that marijuana use among teens has not increased despite changing laws. Findings from the National Institute on Drug Abuse's annual Monitoring the Future survey, which measures drug use and related attitudes among eighth, 10th, and 12th graders, showed that past-year marijuana use is at its lowest level in over 20 years among eighth and 10th graders, and that between 2015 and 2016, the percentage of eighth and 10th graders using marijuana daily dropped from 1.1% to 0.7% and from 3% to 2.5%, respectively. Marijuana use by 12th graders remained the same, however, with 6% reporting daily use.
    


  • @voodoo said in Cannabis debate:

    @Hooroo said in Cannabis debate:
    .

    I don’t want weed cafes in nz but I would like to see it decriminalised.

    Why not?

    Is it any worse than seeing 18yr olds stumble out of pubs at 2am? Vomiting in gutters?

    I've been to a bunch of weed cafes and they were all very civil

    You certainly won't get bar fights in a hash spot



  • @taniwharugby said in Cannabis debate:

    @Mokey i think the roadside testing has long been an issue with marijuana in NZ, although as someone mentioned above there are some better testing being used in Aus presently

    Not where I work. It is still the basic test of whether it's in your system or not. It's a low grade charge and it's amazing how many people fail the tests. Not sure making it legal will mean more people driving 'stoned' because they are doing it already now.



  • @Crazy-Horse It think a guy in Oz fought a conviction (charge?) because of that limitation on the test. Can't recall if he won, lost, or if it's ongoing. Similar to alcohol there needs to be a test based on impairment rather than whether you've had some in the last 24-48 hours.



  • @Crazy-Horse ah ok, i thought there had been improvements in recent years, that does create a big hurdle if there isn't a way to test like alcohol.

    @Paekakboyz impairment varies with alcohol in different people so ideally you have a measure like we do with alcohol...


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