North and South divisions in the NPC?



  • @Donsteppa said in Hawke's Bay v Wellington:

    @Steven-Harris said in Hawke's Bay v Wellington:

    Next weeks last round going to be very interesting

    I reckon
    Wellington will beat Manawatu
    Canterbury will beat Auckland ( only basing that on Aucklands Injury toll, I think Canterbury will treat that game like a final )
    And it will come down to who ever loses the Bop v Harbour game ..
    Thoughts people ..?

    Yep, looks like win v Harbour and we’re in the semi finals, lose and we’re back in the Championship...

    @Donsteppa There is a real possibility that the Premiership and Championship Divisions within the Mitre 10 Cup will be abolished next year and replaced by North and South Divisions as the Farah Palmer Cup was this year, with crossover round robin games and crossover playoffs.

    That would mean all 14 Mitre 10 Cup provinces will be playing for just the one prize.



  • @Number-10 said in Hawke's Bay v Wellington:

    @Donsteppa said in Hawke's Bay v Wellington:

    @Steven-Harris said in Hawke's Bay v Wellington:

    Next weeks last round going to be very interesting

    I reckon
    Wellington will beat Manawatu
    Canterbury will beat Auckland ( only basing that on Aucklands Injury toll, I think Canterbury will treat that game like a final )
    And it will come down to who ever loses the Bop v Harbour game ..
    Thoughts people ..?

    Yep, looks like win v Harbour and we’re in the semi finals, lose and we’re back in the Championship...

    @Donsteppa There is a real possibility that the Premiership and Championship Divisions within the Mitre 10 Cup will be abolished next year and replaced by North and South Divisions as the Farah Palmer Cup was this year, with crossover round robin games and crossover playoffs.

    That would mean all 14 Mitre 10 Cup provinces will be playing for just the one prize.

    Honestly, that would be better IMO



  • I agree.

    Apparently it is all tied in with NZR's proposed budget funding to the provincial union's for next year.



  • To be honest, I can't see why it's better - aside from saving on travel costs.

    It pretty much guarantees a greater number of uncompetitive games - compared with the current merit-based divisions.

    It raises the spectre of a weaker and stronger conference and easier routes to the play-offs (as per Super rugby).

    And it removes the fun of promotion-relegation.



  • @Chris-B Travel and accommodation costs will be significant so if NZR can save money there, I am sure they will. That was a big reason the Heartland competition was suspended this year and contributed to NZR's budget savings.

    Based on the 14 teams, the North Zone would be all Blues and Chiefs provinces, and the South Zone would be Hurricanes, Crusaders and Highlanders provinces.



  • @Bovidae No doubt - but, I don't think it makes the competition better.

    I think it makes it significantly worse.



  • hold on, if there are cross over games then will there really be huge savings? otagos only had three games out of the south island this year, are we only talking about two crossovers so you save ones games worth?

    where would the north south division be? i assume it cant actually be the straight as their would only be four teams in the south



  • @Chris-B I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying NZR will be looking at their bottom line not whether every game is competitive.

    Buses not planes might be their new motto. πŸ™‚



  • @Bovidae You've got to wonder how big those savings will be if - as Kiwiwomble points out - they're still playing four cross-over games.

    Pretty neglible for the Southern conference teams, I'd guess.



  • like it in theory, but not sure how well it will work if it is purely about the $$$.

    Given the geographic layout of our teams, the Southern division would have to be Southland, Otago, Canterbury, Tasman, Wellington, Manawatu & HB...which again highlights the issues of saving money on travel when the Southern teams would surely be same sort of costs?

    Northern teams, yeah I expect they could save a good wedge with Northland, NH, Auckland, Counties, Waikato, BOP & Naki!



  • @taniwharugby said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    like it in theory, but not sure how well it will work if it is purely about the $$$.

    Given the geographic layout of our teams, the Southern division would have to be Southland, Otago, Canterbury, Tasman, Wellington, Manawatu & HB ...which again highlights the issues of saving money on travel when the Southern teams would surely be same sort of costs?

    Northern teams, yeah I expect they could save a good wedge with Northland, NH, Auckland, Counties, Waikato, BOP & Naki!

    I thought @Bovidae said South would Highlanders, Crusaders and Hurricanes regions, so not sure where HB and Manawatu fit in πŸ˜‰



  • @ACT-Crusader said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    @taniwharugby said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    like it in theory, but not sure how well it will work if it is purely about the $$$.

    Given the geographic layout of our teams, the Southern division would have to be Southland, Otago, Canterbury, Tasman, Wellington, Manawatu & HB ...which again highlights the issues of saving money on travel when the Southern teams would surely be same sort of costs?

    Northern teams, yeah I expect they could save a good wedge with Northland, NH, Auckland, Counties, Waikato, BOP & Naki!

    I thought @Bovidae said South would Highlanders, Crusaders and Hurricanes regions, so not sure where HB and Manawatu fit in πŸ˜‰

    We'll just play each other ensuring the Shield will stay in Hawkes Bay forever.



  • i know Canterbury have been a bit rough this year but that wont last...so im not looking forward to playing

    "Always up there" Canterbury
    "Reigning champs" Tasman
    "Always tough (for us)" Southland



  • I like the current set up. It adds a lot of interest at the bottom of the top group. Like this year. What team will drop down. Also it gives two winners. Wellington will never win the Premiership title (just too incompetently run) but down one level they can win. as they did a few years back



  • @Nepia said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    @ACT-Crusader said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    @taniwharugby said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    like it in theory, but not sure how well it will work if it is purely about the $$$.

    Given the geographic layout of our teams, the Southern division would have to be Southland, Otago, Canterbury, Tasman, Wellington, Manawatu & HB ...which again highlights the issues of saving money on travel when the Southern teams would surely be same sort of costs?

    Northern teams, yeah I expect they could save a good wedge with Northland, NH, Auckland, Counties, Waikato, BOP & Naki!

    I thought @Bovidae said South would Highlanders, Crusaders and Hurricanes regions, so not sure where HB and Manawatu fit in πŸ˜‰

    We'll just play each other ensuring the Shield will stay in Hawkes Bay forever.

    So three Divisions now?

    North, South and...what shall we call yours?

    ea91c200-898c-4bcb-acd6-85d9fd2cc9b0-image.png

    Cully knows.... πŸ™‚



  • @Bovidae said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    @Chris-B I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying NZR will be looking at their bottom line not whether every game is competitive.

    Buses not planes might be their new motto. πŸ™‚

    For the game in Napier yesterday, Wellington took the bus home straight after the game, as they did not appear at the aftermatch.

    I presume they also took the bus up.



  • @Winger said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    Wellington will never win the Premiership title (just too incompetently run) but down one level they can win. as they did a few years back

    Took the words right out of my mouth I shudder at the thought of Tasman and Canterbury....



  • IMO this makes sense in more than just dollars and cents. Border rivalries are more intense usually, especially for the smaller provinces. Plus it underlines North v South if that is something they want to push.

    Though there is something to be said about the promotion/relegation battle, especially now that Canterbury are in the relegation zone.πŸ™‚



  • This articles touches on most of the points we have discussed. The cross-over games are necessary to ensure all provinces can have Ranfurly Shield challenges, even Tasman.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/provincial/300153812/new-zealand-rugby-considering-major-revamp-of-the-mitre-10-cup



  • I am against anything that intensifies our season to a series of hard fought derby matches. The volume of injuries seems to be lifting as we move this way especially concussions. The media and the public might want this but do the players? I am all for bigger round robin style comps with a salary cap.



  • @Bovidae said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    This articles touches on most of the points we have discussed. The cross-over games are necessary to ensure all provinces can have Ranfurly Shield challenges, even Tasman.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/provincial/300153812/new-zealand-rugby-considering-major-revamp-of-the-mitre-10-cup

    There's no new information or new quotes in that Stuff article.

    Did they just read it on here and pad it out with previously known background info?



  • @ARHS Yeah there are definitely pros and cons with this proposed format.

    But if there isn't the money to fund the current 2 division format then better to have a North and South division than no meaningful NPC at all.

    @Number-10 I did wonder that myself. πŸ™‚



  • The travel factor is compounded by the changes to AirNZ domestic routes. No mention in that article if teams currently do bus/air combos to keep air costs down. eg Manawatu should be on land transport to Welly for flights. Southland should be heading up to Qtown or Dunedin based on the cheapest flight options etc.
    Far flung teams from the wops with little aerodromes (Hawke Bay) can be kicked out πŸ˜‰



  • @Crucial said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    The travel factor is compounded by the changes to AirNZ domestic routes.

    That's what makes the Heartland comp so expensive. Teams have to bus to regional airports and take multiple flights via the main centres to get to their destination.

    In the North division, only Whangarei to New Plymouth would fall outside the 6 hr bus ride limit.



  • I would imagine they will do the same in Heartland. North Division 1 and North Division Two, etc. It could open up Pro-Reg in each division.





  • By the way, Canterbury took the bus from Christchurch to Blennheim for their game against Tasman. Their bus broke down and they had to wait for a new bus, before continuing their trip North. It took them an hour more than usual (somewhere between 5 and 6 hours one way, IIRC).



  • my big problem with the north south thing is, and the article says as much, the North is really the only one that will save money. But the north also is drawing on a much bigger population base, greater auckland and hamilton is like 2M people, So they have a greater ability to raise money.

    so we're saying to someone like southland, you have one of the smallest populations...and not only are you not going to be able to save some money, we still want you to fly to the north island...but we're going to limit the games you can make money off



  • @Winger said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    I like the current set up. It adds a lot of interest at the bottom of the top group. Like this year. What team will drop down. Also it gives two winners. Wellington will never win the Premiership title (just too incompetently run) but down one level they can win. as they did a few years back

    @Chris-B said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    To be honest, I can't see why it's better - aside from saving on travel costs.

    And it removes the fun of promotion-relegation.

    I agree with this. Some provinces will never be able to win the comp if they split the teams in a North and a South pool. It's good that at least some of those provinces have another title to play for (the Championship title). If this change goes ahead, I think they should at least do what they've done in the Heartland Championship, and let the numbers 5 - 8 play for another piece of silverware (like the Lochore Cup). But that would reduce the savings they'll make from changing the format, which I can't imagine being very big anyway, if they're going to add 4 cross-over games.



  • Unsurprising that it's the Magpies best chance at getting back in the 1st Division in a while so NZR decide to change the format. πŸ˜‰



  • @Nepia said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    Unsurprising that it's the Magpies best chance at getting back in the 1st Division in a while so NZR decide to change the format. πŸ˜‰

    Hmmm.... the Magpies might get promoted

    The NZRU drone dusts off an ancient red ringbinder, checks emergency instructions

    Aha! An urgent restructure of the entire competition is called for

    πŸ™‚



  • @Kiwiwomble said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    my big problem with the north south thing is, and the article says as much, the North is really the only one that will save money. But the north also is drawing on a much bigger population base, greater auckland and hamilton is like 2M people, So they have a greater ability to raise money.

    so we're saying to someone like southland, you have one of the smallest populations...and not only are you not going to be able to save some money, we still want you to fly to the north island...but we're going to limit the games you can make money off

    I assume that NZR still pays for flights through a sponsorship deal with Air NZ so there would be a net saving to NZR. If the unions now pay for all travel costs I can understand the criticism of the proposed new format.

    I did read an article where Southland stated they will be disadvantaged and suggested a fairer system to spread the costs of travel more evenly.



  • @Bovidae said in North and South divisions in the NPC?:

    I did read an article where Southland stated they will be disadvantaged and suggested a fairer system to spread the costs of travel more evenly.

    They do know that they will get home games don't they?

    Perhaps they mean that leaving Invercargill is more expensive than going there due to demand?



  • @Snowy i read it as it may not be any more expensive than it is currently...but it wont be cheaper, so disadvantaged compared to other unions rather than disadvantaged compared to the current format



  • @Snowy Their point was that every away game except Otago requires travelling by air. NZR has a 6 hr travel limit by bus (increased from 4 hrs).



  • @Bovidae The same applies to Tasman. Air travel to all by air, except Canterbury.



  • @Stargazer Tasman obviously has a much bigger budget. πŸ˜‰



  • @Bovidae Yeah I got that and was taking the piss a bit, but everybody going to visit them has to do the same thing (except Otago).

    Flying into a southerly headwind is slower admittedly.





  • The savings for NZR were/are about $700,000.

    At the chairman/ceo's meeting with NZR during the week there was one province which didn't relish being in the South Pool because they would be facing Wellington, Canterbury and Tasman every year.

    The North Island teams in the South Pool would have to spend two nights away when playing each of their four matches in the South Island.

    Auckland and Canterbury usually counted a bigger than average gate when playing each other every year and there would be no guarantee they would meet every year.

    All sorts of individual "anomalies" like that.


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