US Politics



  • @antipodean as astonished at the first autopsy indicating it wasn't due to suffocation?



  • @Crucial and what else are you going to do with all that gear that was found wanting during overseas conflicts etc? bring it home, paint it black and yeee fucking haaa!!



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Crazy-Horse said in US Politics:

    @Duluth said in US Politics:

    @Crucial

    Radley Balko did a lot of good reporting on it (particularly this book from 2013)

    The decades long war on drugs being the main cause (get scared whenever politicians talk about 'The war on x')
    The problem was accelerated with old military gear/vehicles from Iraq etc getting sold to police forces.

    On the flip side, you need the police equipped to deal with situations in a timely and effective manner, and they may need the military type tools to do this.

    They have also gone from specialists, such as SWAT teams to equipping barely trained cowboys with enough gear to take down a small country.

    Are you talking about the US?

    Re military style weapons for the police. Qld have introduced them on a limited scale to trained officers, meaning some patrols cars will be carrying them. NZ appears to be the same. This is so police have some sort of ability to respond to an active shooter. Even though we carry side arms, they are only useful up to 20 metres if you are a good shot. Useless against someone carrying a rifle. Police cannot afford to lose any use of force situations, let alone ones involving an active shooter.

    Police need to be better equipped than the offenders. I guess it's an arms race...



  • Liberalism is a religion. What a stupid country.



  • 77-year-old St. Louis retired Police Captain David Dorn was shot dead by looters when he tried to get them to stop looting a local pawn shop. Guy taking the video called 911 first.



  • This video is actually funny.



  • @reprobate said in US Politics:

    @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    I was a little concerned after Corona but I think the footage of the last few nights settles it.

    Congrats on 4 more years Mr Trump.

    Mate, this is a truly bizarre attitude and conclusion.

    These protests are no longer characterised by 'racial justice' they are now representative of random assaults on the street, vandalism, arson, destruction of peoples livelihoods and multiple murders (unsure how much footage is circulating in msm but their is plenty on social potentially further discrediting the CNN types ). Democrats have largely been in support of the protests (and antifa) while Republicans have largely been against and Trump in particular has been strongly against. Support for Federal & Military action to shutdown the protests is now in the majority (https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-uploads/2020/06/01181629/2005131_crosstabs_POLICE_RVs_FINAL_LM-1.pdf) and democrat State representatives have proven they will not help protect people or property, a terrific advertisement for the importance of the 2nd amendment.

    Not holding my breath for BLM to actually give a damn about David Dorn or any other casualty of this. Black lives only matter to these people if it achieves a political aim.



  • @Paekakboyz said in US Politics:

    @antipodean as astonished at the first autopsy indicating it wasn't due to suffocation?

    Excited delirium is a thing. As is the observation that consultants tend to provide the outcomes you hired them for...

    The broader problem is competing autopsies make the prosecutor's job much harder.





  • @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    @reprobate said in US Politics:

    @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    I was a little concerned after Corona but I think the footage of the last few nights settles it.

    Congrats on 4 more years Mr Trump.

    Mate, this is a truly bizarre attitude and conclusion.

    These protests are no longer characterised by 'racial justice' they are now representative of random assaults on the street, vandalism, arson, destruction of peoples livelihoods and multiple murders (unsure how much footage is circulating in msm but their is plenty on social potentially further discrediting the CNN types ). Democrats have largely been in support of the protests (and antifa) while Republicans have largely been against and Trump in particular has been strongly against. Support for Federal & Military action to shutdown the protests is now in the majority (https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-uploads/2020/06/01181629/2005131_crosstabs_POLICE_RVs_FINAL_LM-1.pdf) and democrat State representatives have proven they will not help protect people or property, a terrific advertisement for the importance of the 2nd amendment.

    Not holding my breath for BLM to actually give a damn about David Dorn or any other casualty of this. Black lives only matter to these people if it achieves a political aim.

    Hang on. You have fallen into the trap of not seperating the actual peaceful protests from those looking to take advantage of civil disobedience. It isn't a party line thing at all. People regardless of political slant are against assault, looting, rioting etc (as shown by laws agreed as such)

    According to the tables linked (very good thank you) 72% of voters in total (all 'sides') think it is important for the President to address racial inequality in the U.S., which refers to differences across races in income, access to quality healthcare, access to voting rights or general quality of life?
    83% of voters think it is important for the public to address the same.

    That's a large majority that see a problem here. Yes 54% of 'Reps' are in the 'do not support' categories regarding protestors but this survey does not differentiate at all between protestors and 'others' and the majority of Reps are sympathetic with the message.
    That implies to me that they would be fine with peaceful protests, just not the stirred up minority taking advantage to be lawless.



  • Stating that this will ensure Trump is re-elected is pretty ridiculous. It's June, and given how quickly things have changed since January you'd be mad to make any sort of prediction for an event that's five months away. No result would shock me at this stage - Trump/Biden landslides, or it coming down to a handful of college votes.

    I don't think these protests will be a lethal blow to his Presidency, but I also don't think they help him. Surely any rational person can see the US is a complete mess at the moment. Regardless of how or why that may be the case it doesn't reflect well on the sitting President, especially one whose central platform was to 'make America great again'.

    The pre-conditions for a first term President being voted out are there, as they were for GHWB and Carter. But we're in a very different place to where we were in 1992 or 1980 so it's almost impossible to make any sort of prediction.



  • @antipodean said in US Politics:

    Excited delirium is a thing. As is the observation that consultants tend to provide the outcomes you hired them for...

    The broader problem is competing autopsies make the prosecutor's job much harder.

    One thing that complicates these autopsies is the Dr that is usually involved

    There's a massive amount of money in cases like this so they get the best doctor they can. One doctor has gotten so much experience he's become the default choice - Dr Micheal Baden

    There's nothing wrong with paying for the best but it does make conspiracy theorists get over excited when they see the cases he's been involved in: JFK, OJ, Phil Spector, Aaron Hernandez, Michael Brown, Jeffrey Epstein and now this case.

    He used to tell some funny stories about autopsies on 'Red Eye' years ago.. he's seen a lot of weird shit



  • @barbarian as a not so long departed poster used to say, don't trust the polls. Anything can happen. Trump will keep his base, it remains to be seen if the Dems voters can get suitably motivated to vote him out.



  • @canefan said in US Politics:

    @barbarian as a not so long departed poster used to say, don't trust the polls. Anything can happen. Trump will keep his base, it remains to be seen if the Dems voters can get suitably motivated to vote him out.

    Maybe the Dems might actually try and campaign in Michigan this time. Who knows...



  • @canefan said in US Politics:

    @barbarian as a not so long departed poster used to say, don't trust the polls. Anything can happen. Trump will keep his base, it remains to be seen if the Dems voters can get suitably motivated to vote him out.

    Swing States aren't looking that flash for Trump at the moment and who knows what will happen to the black vote, or if Biden can provide sufficient assurances that will actually get the numbers even voting.

    As we learned last time, the electoral college system can be the deciding factor if you let things be close enough.

    A bit like giving the ref an opportunity to influence the result in a rugby game.



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @canefan said in US Politics:

    @barbarian as a not so long departed poster used to say, don't trust the polls. Anything can happen. Trump will keep his base, it remains to be seen if the Dems voters can get suitably motivated to vote him out.

    Swing States aren't looking that flash for Trump at the moment and who knows what will happen to the black vote, or if Biden can provide sufficient assurances that will actually get the numbers even voting.

    As we learned last time, the electoral college system can be the deciding factor if you let things be close enough.

    A bit like giving the ref an opportunity to influence the result in a rugby game.

    I'm not sure Biden captures the imagination. He just has to play it straight and hope that Trump motivates enough people to come out and vote against him. If they get too petty it will devolve into a slanging match and Trump is quite adept at those



  • I think the bigger problem than trump or Biden is that the losing side will not accept the result and the whole thing will fester.

    We really need an alien attack very soon 😉



  • @canefan said in US Politics:

    @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @canefan said in US Politics:

    @barbarian as a not so long departed poster used to say, don't trust the polls. Anything can happen. Trump will keep his base, it remains to be seen if the Dems voters can get suitably motivated to vote him out.

    Swing States aren't looking that flash for Trump at the moment and who knows what will happen to the black vote, or if Biden can provide sufficient assurances that will actually get the numbers even voting.

    As we learned last time, the electoral college system can be the deciding factor if you let things be close enough.

    A bit like giving the ref an opportunity to influence the result in a rugby game.

    I'm not sure Biden captures the imagination. He just has to play it straight and hope that Trump motivates enough people to come out and vote against him. If they get too petty it will devolve into a slanging match and Trump is quite adept at those

    Agree on the 'play it straight' part.
    Biden will need to look like the adult in the room offering leadership without being condescending.
    He does need to offer something though, and not rely on an 'anti' vote. If he offers nothing or a return to pre-Trump many of the voters that wanted 'any sort of change' will just not vote.
    I think non-votes will hurt Biden more than Trump.

    I would like to see him enter debates ready to call fact checks on Trump's lies.

    Whether Biden and the Dems can actually offer anything other than 'get rid of Trump' remains to be seen. He isnt the most inspiring pick.



  • @Siam said in US Politics:

    I think the bigger problem than trump or Biden is that the losing side will not accept the result and the whole thing will fester.

    We really need an alien attack very soon 😉

    A MAGA uprising? That would not turn out well.



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Siam said in US Politics:

    I think the bigger problem than trump or Biden is that the losing side will not accept the result and the whole thing will fester.

    We really need an alien attack very soon 😉

    A MAGA uprising? That would not turn out well.

    As compared to the last 4 years from the democrats? 🤔. It's all shit mate, same as brexit. Can we get losing graciously and committing to betterment within the rules on a national curriculum? 😁



  • @Crucial said in US Politics:

    @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    @reprobate said in US Politics:

    @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    I was a little concerned after Corona but I think the footage of the last few nights settles it.

    Congrats on 4 more years Mr Trump.

    Mate, this is a truly bizarre attitude and conclusion.

    These protests are no longer characterised by 'racial justice' they are now representative of random assaults on the street, vandalism, arson, destruction of peoples livelihoods and multiple murders (unsure how much footage is circulating in msm but their is plenty on social potentially further discrediting the CNN types ). Democrats have largely been in support of the protests (and antifa) while Republicans have largely been against and Trump in particular has been strongly against. Support for Federal & Military action to shutdown the protests is now in the majority (https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-uploads/2020/06/01181629/2005131_crosstabs_POLICE_RVs_FINAL_LM-1.pdf) and democrat State representatives have proven they will not help protect people or property, a terrific advertisement for the importance of the 2nd amendment.

    Not holding my breath for BLM to actually give a damn about David Dorn or any other casualty of this. Black lives only matter to these people if it achieves a political aim.

    Hang on. You have fallen into the trap of not seperating the actual peaceful protests from those looking to take advantage of civil disobedience. It isn't a party line thing at all. People regardless of political slant are against assault, looting, rioting etc (as shown by laws agreed as such)

    Don't get me wrong I agree that peaceful protest and rioters and thugs are different entities but these protests are now characterised by these events. When people look back to this they are going to see the murders, assaults, burnt out businesses. This is not a 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. This is an orgy of destruction.

    Funnily enough Stuff aren't covering it any more, CNN not doing much better, I'd be guessing the usual outlets are turning a blind eye, god forbid news be reported. Social media giants are coming to the party and nixing videos that don't back the 'peaceful protestors, evil police' narrative, thank god some folk are taking records.

    https://pastelink.net/1o8cv



  • @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    Don't get me wrong I agree that peaceful protest and rioters and thugs are different entities but these protests are now characterised by these events. When people look back to this they are going to see the murders, assaults, burnt out businesses. This is not a 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. This is an orgy of destruction.

    I disagree. Once again the historical significance of this is still incredibly unclear. There's a chance this is a real tipping point in race relations in the US. What that leads to I'm not sure, but I think your political perspective is shining through with statements like the above. You are seeing these things, therefore you assume everyone is. I'm not sure that is the case at all.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    Don't get me wrong I agree that peaceful protest and rioters and thugs are different entities but these protests are now characterised by these events. When people look back to this they are going to see the murders, assaults, burnt out businesses. This is not a 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. This is an orgy of destruction.

    I disagree. Once again the historical significance of this is still incredibly unclear. There's a chance this is a real tipping point in race relations in the US. What that leads to I'm not sure, but I think your political perspective is shining through with statements like the above. You are seeing these things, therefore you assume everyone is. I'm not sure that is the case at all.

    Totally fine to disagree on this. No doubt watching footage of multiple murders in the last couple of days coupled with reporting of 'peaceful protests' is going to slant my view. If joe public got access to this footage too I'd wager their view would change substatially.

    Here's a running list of victims, for as long as Twitter allows it being up.



  • @Duluth said in US Politics:

    @antipodean said in US Politics:

    Excited delirium is a thing. As is the observation that consultants tend to provide the outcomes you hired them for...

    The broader problem is competing autopsies make the prosecutor's job much harder.

    One thing that complicates these autopsies is the Dr that is usually involved

    There's a massive amount of money in cases like this so they get the best doctor they can. One doctor has gotten so much experience he's become the default choice - Dr Micheal Baden

    There's nothing wrong with paying for the best but it does make conspiracy theorists get over excited when they see the cases he's been involved in: JFK, OJ, Phil Spector, Aaron Hernandez, Michael Brown, Jeffrey Epstein and now this case.

    He used to tell some funny stories about autopsies on 'Red Eye' years ago.. he's seen a lot of weird shit

    If only Fahmy Malak was still alive.



  • Oh and can we stop the slander of John McClane? He was a hero.



  • @Bones said in US Politics:

    Oh and can we stop the slander of John McClane? He was a hero.

    Was? Don’t tell me he’s dead too.



  • @JC said in US Politics:

    @Bones said in US Politics:

    Oh and can we stop the slander of John McClane? He was a hero.

    Was? Don’t tell me he’s dead too.

    Yep, big reveal right at the end. He's a ghost.



  • @Bones said in US Politics:

    @JC said in US Politics:

    @Bones said in US Politics:

    Oh and can we stop the slander of John McClane? He was a hero.

    Was? Don’t tell me he’s dead too.

    Yep, big reveal right at the end. He's a ghost.

    John McClane was Patrick Swayze?



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    @Bones said in US Politics:

    @JC said in US Politics:

    @Bones said in US Politics:

    Oh and can we stop the slander of John McClane? He was a hero.

    Was? Don’t tell me he’s dead too.

    Yep, big reveal right at the end. He's a ghost.

    John McClane was Patrick Swayze?

    Well there's a common denominator innit.



  • @barbarian said in US Politics:

    @Rembrandt said in US Politics:

    Don't get me wrong I agree that peaceful protest and rioters and thugs are different entities but these protests are now characterised by these events. When people look back to this they are going to see the murders, assaults, burnt out businesses. This is not a 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. This is an orgy of destruction.

    I disagree. Once again the historical significance of this is still incredibly unclear. There's a chance this is a real tipping point in race relations in the US. What that leads to I'm not sure, but I think your political perspective is shining through with statements like the above. You are seeing these things, therefore you assume everyone is. I'm not sure that is the case at all.

    Not sure I agree with the above Barb's. The violence and looting is far outweighing the peaceful protests at the moment. People aren't calling the US a mess because of people holding vigils and going about things in a civilised manner. Will it stay this way and this be the lasting characteristic of the time period? There will have to be real change for that to happen, and I can't see any pivot point at the moment for it.

    When this calms down, I think history will look back at this for 3 main things

    1. The crime
    2. The criminal reaction
    3. The Trump reaction.

    All of which, are sadly shocking.



  • @MajorRage genuinely, what's been shocking about the trump reaction? You think his quote is defining?
    From the little I've seen his addresses to the nation have been pretty reasonable and met with majority approval.

    If it's just his use of the 1967 phrase, then ok, I understand that point of view



  • @Siam said in US Politics:

    @MajorRage genuinely, what's been shocking about the trump reaction? You think his quote is defining?
    From the little I've seen his addresses to the nation have been pretty reasonable and met with majority approval.

    If it's just his use of the 1967 phrase, then ok, I understand that point of view

    I don't feel that anything he is doing is really trying to calm down the situation. He may not be trying to enflame it, but its very easy to take the piss out of everything he does. From the tweets, to the photo op in front of the church of him holding the bible, to turning all the lights off in the white house. It comes across to me like a series of poorly thought out statement points, as opposed to any sort of real address of resolving the issues.

    It doesn't seem or feel Presidential at all. I know that's not his style, and it's worked for a lot of things over the past 3 years. But different times call for different measures.



  • @Bones said in US Politics:

    @JC said in US Politics:

    @Bones said in US Politics:

    Oh and can we stop the slander of John McClane? He was a hero.

    Was? Don’t tell me he’s dead too.

    Yep, big reveal right at the end. He's a ghost.

    Use the fucking spoiler function man



  • @voodoo said in US Politics:

    @Bones said in US Politics:

    @JC said in US Politics:

    @Bones said in US Politics:

    Oh and can we stop the slander of John McClane? He was a hero.

    Was? Don’t tell me he’s dead too.

    Yep, big reveal right at the end. He's a ghost.

    Use the fucking spoiler function man

    Tell that to the people who named the movie.



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    Not sure I agree with the above Barb's. The violence and looting is far outweighing the peaceful protests at the moment. People aren't calling the US a mess because of people holding vigils and going about things in a civilised manner. Will it stay this way and this be the lasting characteristic of the time period? There will have to be real change for that to happen, and I can't see any pivot point at the moment for it.

    I suppose my point was it's too early to tell what the lasting legacy of this will be.

    I'm very cognisant of the fact that I am sitting in Australia, viewing this through a local media lens. I deliberately avoid politics on social media if I can, so like everyone my view is coloured by how I am taking in this situation. Someone sitting in Chicago will see a very different picture, or someone sitting near me who follows a particular left/right partisan feed on social media.

    What I see is widespread protest, which in some cities has led to looting and violence. I've seen a Presidential response which appears to be polarising, like most things Trump does. I'm not under any allusion this will lead to racial harmony and peace, but it might lead to something very different to the status quo.



  • @barbarian WE all agree on the hope. A stable US, is better for everybody.

    Not convinced this is the catalyst for anything other than short-term signalling yet myself. Hope I'm wrong.



  • @MajorRage said in US Politics:

    Not convinced this is the catalyst for anything other than short-term signalling yet myself. Hope I'm wrong.

    It could also be the catalyst for a prolonged, ugly conflict. Could really go anywhere IMO.



  • @Frank said in US Politics:

    77-year-old St. Louis retired Police Captain David Dorn was shot dead by looters when he tried to get them to stop looting a local pawn shop. Guy taking the video called 911 first.

    When the crims have guns the whole situation turns to custard real quick. Can't be reduced to a simple slogan.



  • @Siam said in US Politics:

    @MajorRage genuinely, what's been shocking about the trump reaction? You think his quote is defining?
    From the little I've seen his addresses to the nation have been pretty reasonable and met with majority approval.

    I fail to get the point of majority approval. That’s for when a politician wants to hedge his bets on re-election. It’s not the same as leadership, which is what’s missing here.

    Somehow the US has turned into a gerontocracy, with both parties’ likely candidates stupid old men. Maybe they were both clever once, but they’re not now. Biden acts like he’s suffering from dementia and Trump is a 140 character mind in a longform world.
    It’s sad it’s no longer shocking that Trump’s tendency to confuse what he thinks plays well in a tweet is the best response to any real world situation. Autocracy may play well in states where the political framework allows for it, but the US isn’t that place. Everybody in the country knows that ultimately they have the constitutional right to tell him to piss off, yet he continues to act as though ordering around free people will work. It doesn’t. He needs to find another way, and I think he’s too old to change, and too much a believer in his own myth for him to even think he needs to.

    And yet, where is the viable alternative? Charlatans, shallow panderers, mass-produced gladhanders who think a generic law degree is the ticket to wisdom that nobody else has, virtue signalling empty heads in bad American suits. How did a great country fall so low, so fast? From an embarrassment of riches to simply an embarrassment?

    Many of the smartest people I know are Americans. Trump and Biden aren’t fit to be seen in the same room as them. A pox on both their corrupt houses.



  • @JC thank you jc. Summed up well.


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