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Astounding mathematics:
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Some things should be self evident, but apparently they need saying:
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Really? Cause I think she is full of shite.
1/ That law has not been changed, EXACTLY the same thing has been happening for years, including under her husband.
2/ This is just a continuation of the 'kids in cages' narrative that was debunked. It is a left wing hit job with a compliant media aided by never Trumpers.
3/ Many people smugglers use kids as an easier entrance.
4/ Parents are separated from kids all the time. What happens when a US citizen gets arrested and goes to jail? Do males with kids get a free ticket from jail cause they have kids? It is also self evident that people should not go to jail if they have kids and the only option is state care??
5/ None of these bleeding hearts ever actually come up with a solution. Let them all in? If they have kids.. just waltz through? Trump has had a number of ideas squashed that would solve the issue. Do you know how many of these Asylum seekers end up appearing for the judgement? How many get ruled as bogus? You might be shocked. Borders need to matter.
6/ How about the parents take some responsibility and not come through the southern border. Maybe they could chose to not be separated form their children? You know that is an option they could easily choose? Stay in Mexico.. done.It is sooooo easy for the bleeding hearts to moralise form on high, but they never ever have any solutions other than let everyone in.. or policies that would have that effect in reality. Laura Bush can shove her sermon up where the sun dont shine, I would be more interested in her opinion if she actually had some real policy and solutions.
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@rembrandt said in US Politics:
I found this a good read on the kids separation thing.
It is of course horrible but its a whole lot more complex than the 'Trump is literally putting kids in cages' rhetoric.I am confused by that arcticle. It lays out the facts ... But Laura told me emotional moral stuff.
Oh who to believe?????
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@baron-silas-greenback I agree with some of those comments, what I don't see is how they're helped by - or justify - family separations.
1/ That law has not been changed, EXACTLY the same thing has been happening for years, including under her husband.
Then it should have blown up earlier. Though it sounds like it hasn't due to the numbers? (And/or the left wing media if you prefer as per your point 2)
3/ Many people smugglers use kids as an easier entrance.
Sure, one of many dodgy tactics. I'd happily see a much tougher line taken with people smugglers around the globe - in some cases I've seen I'd go with capital punishment - and I don't say that lightly. There's a middle ground between letting people smugglers getting away with it by letting in families with kids - and separating kids from their families in the interim.
4/ Parents are separated from kids all the time. What happens when a US citizen gets arrested and goes to jail? Do males with kids get a free ticket from jail cause they have kids? It is also self evident that people should not go to jail if they have kids and the only option is state care??
I'd argue the context:
- In one sense, the kids are also entering illegally and are also being held
- Yes... clearly there is diminished responsibility for the kids so they are rightly not charged. But given they are detained (or need to be detained to wait for family reunification), is there a compelling reason for separating them (outside of the obvious cases where there are risks of family violence)?
- There appears to be no chance of the kids being able to return to extended family in the interim(?), unlike the starters chance that the US kid has of going to wider family when a father goes to jail.
- The length of detention between the analogies could vary significantly - depending on the type of crime that the US male with kids commits.
I think this is something we'll continue to differ on though.
5/ None of these bleeding hearts ever actually come up with a solution. Let them all in? If they have kids.. just waltz through? Trump has had a number of ideas squashed that would solve the issue. Do you know how many of these Asylum seekers end up appearing for the judgement? How many get ruled as bogus? You might be shocked. Borders need to matter.
Is there a middle ground between "let them all in/just waltz through?" and family separation? I'll make little comment on Trump on this one - beyond whatever you want to call me out on from inferences in the article. I'm far from a fan of Trump, but I'm not impressed with some Democrat tactics either - on this or other matters recently. As per Rembrant's article, I'm quite happy to direct gnashing of teeth at Congress: "The missing piece here is Congress, but little outrage will be directed at it, and probably nothing will be done. And so our perverse system will remain in place and the crisis at the border will rumble on."
Do you know how many of these Asylum seekers end up appearing for the judgement? How many get ruled as bogus? You might be shocked. Borders need to matter.
No, I wouldn't be shocked. Yes, borders need to matter. I don't see how any of it is helped by - or justifies - family separations. Yes - I'm also being unhelpful by not proposing a solution beyond being a bleeding heart; for the moment it's a visceral reaction to something that I really don't like seeing.
6/ How about the parents take some responsibility and not come through the southern border. Maybe they could chose to not be separated form their children? You know that is an option they could easily choose? Stay in Mexico.. done
Also agreed. But for now they haven't and here we are. And kids are caught up in it all. Much like the Mediterranean crossings, they shouldn't do it and shouldn't be encouraged (capital punishment for people smugglers knowingly taking kids on overloaded and unseaworthy boats would suit me - I'd almost go as far as summary justice)... but once they've started it I'd rather they were rescued out of the water first and we argued it second.
It is sooooo easy for the bleeding hearts to moralise form on high, but they never ever have any solutions other than let everyone in.. or policies that would have that effect in reality. Laura Bush can shove her sermon up where the sun dont shine, I would be more interested in her opinion if she actually had some real policy and solutions.
I don't see family separations helping as a form of discouragement, or the extent to which it may, I don't believe that they are worth the price. If that makes me a bleeding heart, so be it.
I'd have to have a go at solutions another day. On the face of it, asylum law has become more problematic/misused than intended, but there also need to be safeguards for legitimate use. For now I'm not sure where to start on that one... I'm very fond of the UK border at Calais, but that solution is helped entirely by geography.
For now, I'm at least encouraged by the White House not being in favour - including the comments of the First Lady and reading into a couple by the President too.
"White House counselor Kellyanne Conway said on NBC Sunday... "As a mother, as a Catholic, as somebody who has got a conscience ... I will tell you that nobody likes this policy""
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Interesting article here about convicted felons being separated from their children:
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@rancid-schnitzel That was a thought provoking piece. I was all ready to climb into it for false equivalence, but now I'm not so sure. I don't think it justifies the current situation with the illegals and in truth I don't think that is what the article is trying to do, but it does highlight what a thorny problem the whole thing is.
Thanks for posting.
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If interested, this podcast by Malcolm Gladwell in his Revisionist History series documents the recent history of the US border and context as to how it the border policies have changed.
It's about 20 odd minutes and while not offering solutions it does enlighten some of the changes to immigration and why. It's not a bad historical insight about the man, General Chapman who changed border enforcement.
"Good fences make good neighbors. Or maybe not."
General Leonard Chapman guided the Marines Corp through some of the most difficult years in its history. He was brilliant, organized, decisive and indefatigable. Then he turned his attention to the America’s immigration crisis. You think you want effective leadership? Be careful what you wish for.
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Thee only way kids are seperated form parents is if
1/ They do not use a proper port of entry, i.e sneak across the border.
2/ The when caught they claim asylum. The vast majority of which are bogus.
3/ If one of these 3 conditions occur the child is taken
i) Cannot verify any relationship between the child and adult (important to stop sex traffickers)
ii) When the US verifies that the child is at risk from the adult (clearly bad)
iii) The adult is referred for criminal felony prosecution. (serious crime)And they are not mistreated, the US taxpayer spends over $35000 per kid per year on these minors. That is more than alot of kids in the US live on.
Bear in mind that at any stage, the supposed family unit could just reverse course and go back from where they came.. as a family unit. They are CHOOSING to be separated. get caught at the border trying o sneak in... go back.. or don't claim asylum... or have documents showing you are the parents... you will keep your kids.
These smugglers know that kids have been a ticket to easy US access. Since 2012 when Obama dropped the ball... 'family units' illegally entering increased by 400% often the same child used more than once in different 'family units'...If just anyone can claim asylum and be released, never to come back to face the judges assessment.. how is that not an open border?
It blows my mind that people are being sucked in by all of this left wing spin. Want to not get separated from your kids.. use one of the 25 ports of entry along the border. Claim asylum there.. and you wont be separated. Dont sneak across.
Pretty bloody simple. -
Kids in cages, oh noes!!
This is just the latest manufactured outrage.
It was only a couple weeks ago that journalists tweeted their horror and disgust at photos of kids in cages, using them as an example of the worst humanitarian crisis in American history!!! Then, when informed that pics were actually from 2014 and the Obama administration, they suddenly deleted them. If those kids were in Hope & Change cages, that made ALL the difference in the world, see. They weren’t separated from their families; they were getting free wifi in Barack’s Holiday Camp. Yay!!
Now it’s Big Time Important News again, almost precisely at the moment that the Rooskie investigation pivots to an investigation of the FBI and James Comey. Whoops, better turn the spotlight somewhere else, and pretend Obama-era non-scandals are now the end of the world and humanity itself, basically Auschwitz, ‘cos, well, obviously, Drumpf.
Entirely predictable.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in US Politics:
@Donsteppa
And they are not mistreated, the US taxpayer spends over $35000 per kid per year on these minors. That is more than alot of kids in the US live on.They could spend less without mistreatment - and also without separating families.
If just anyone can claim asylum and be released, never to come back to face the judges assessment.. how is that not an open border?
I'm not advocating that.
Bear in mind that at any stage, the supposed family unit could just reverse course and go back from where they came.. as a family unit. They are CHOOSING to be separated. get caught at the border trying o sneak in... go back.. or don't claim asylum... or have documents showing you are the parents... you will keep your kids.
These smugglers know that kids have been a ticket to easy US access. Since 2012 when Obama dropped the ball... 'family units' illegally entering increased by 400% often the same child used more than once in different 'family units'...So why they are choosing to trying to sneak in? In addition to my initial bleeding heart liberal solutions of:
- Yes, they could take personal responsibility and not turn up, but they have turned up and here we are.
- Harsh justice for scum of the earth people smugglers/traffickers who will tell people what they want to hear, charge huge sums of money in the process, and deliver only misery.
.... What's the incentive to try and sneak across illegally? The US isn't renowned for substantive long term welfare benefits in reward for illegal border crossings. From a quick Google of Texas: https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12/14/lawmakers-go-easy-employers-undocumented-workers/
Business interests rely on undocumented immigrant workers, while pro-immigrant activists fight to protect the labor rights of those facing abuse and exploitation. When the Chamber of Commerce and the American Civil Liberties Union are on the same side of an issue at the Capitol, they’re hard to beat.
The workers are everywhere: at construction sites, behind the kitchen doors of popular restaurants, in the fields and — when the lights go out — emptying the trash and cleaning the toilets in office buildings and shopping centers.
“In any company, store or wherever you go, you have to present a Social Security number and a permanent resident ID,” Chunco said in his native Spanish. “What they want is to have something in which you identify yourself and that you do the work. They don’t know or care how you got it.”
“We know what an important part immigrant labor plays in Texas, and to suddenly wipe out large sectors ... would have a devastating impact on the Texas economy. We need immigrant labor to do those tasks where not enough Americans will.” — Bill Hammond, Texas Association of Business
Undocumented immigrants also find work as independent contractors — a common tactic in construction but by no means unique to that industry. “The employer does not have an obligation to check the work authorization of someone that they engage as an independent contractor,” Beardall explained. Hiring undocumented workers as independent contractors, or misclassifying them as contractors, he said, “not only enables you to evade overtime laws and minimum wage laws and workers comp but also holds at arm’s length any knowledge you’re supposed to check into about their immigration status.”
Authorities the world over remove illegal workers when they find them. But making sure the same employer doesn't just find the next lot of illegal workers is the big one - otherwise the cycle just gets perpetuated with new illegal crossings. So I'd suggest more of these (alongside more trouble for people smugglers, and people choosing to not cross the border in the first place):
... I think the illegal border crossings would be much more likely to dry up. And - without family separation needed as a supposed deterrent.
Regarding:
Since 2012 when Obama dropped the ball...
I won't argue that, I can't find the image link to embed it, but the I-9 fines graph and the Administrative arrests graph in https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/19/us/ice-raid-meat-supplier-fresh-mark/index.html show the drop off.
Looks like a blind eye has been turned - but you can turn that around without needing or justifying family separation from illegal entry: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-face-republicans-upset-over-border-policy-n884816?icid=recommended
WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump told House Republicans Tuesday night that he is "1,000 percent" with them as GOP leaders try to pass a sprawling immigration bill, and that he wants to see an end to his policy of separating undocumented children from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border. "We gotta take care of separation," Trump said, according to people who were in the closed-door meeting in the basement of the Capitol. "It's too nasty."
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@donsteppa said in US Politics:
They could spend less without mistreatment - and also without separating families.
How exactly? Mistreatment? How? And what is your proof they are separating families? That is kinda the issue these so called called families cannot prove they are families at all.
If just anyone can claim asylum and be released, never to come back to face the judges assessment.. how is that not an open border?
I'm not advocating that.
Yes you are, you just don't seem top realise it. How do they not seperate the kids from adults and maintain border security? Trump is already trying to get law changes, but that doesnt seem to placate the mob.
So why they are choosing to trying to sneak in? In addition to my initial bleeding heart liberal solutions of:
- Yes, they could take personal responsibility and not turn up, but they have turned up and here we are.
- Harsh justice for scum of the earth people smugglers/traffickers who will tell people what they want to hear, charge huge sums of money in the process, and deliver only misery.
.... What's the incentive to try and sneak across illegally? The US isn't renowned for substantive long term welfare benefits in reward for illegal border crossings. From a quick Google of Texas: https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12/14/lawmakers-go-easy-employers-undocumented-workers/
Because they are not actually families maybe? Because a adult is a multiple time illegal immigrant and therefore faces felony charges? An adult is a convicted felon? Because Obama made it that if you come with a minor, you get into the US easier than if you are a adult on their own?
If you are a true asylum seeker looking to save your family... you have proof you are a family and use the border crossingsBusiness interests rely on undocumented immigrant workers, while pro-immigrant activists fight to protect the labor rights of those facing abuse and exploitation. When the Chamber of Commerce and the American Civil Liberties Union are on the same side of an issue at the Capitol, they’re hard to beat.
Hence why the never Trumpers are also virtue signalling and lying, not out of empathy.... but greed.
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How exactly? Mistreatment? How? And what is your proof they are separating families? That is kinda the issue these so called called families cannot prove they are families at all.
I think we've crossed purposes there - I've not been as clear as I should. I was trying to note and acknowledge/agree with your comment of spending US$35k as not a bad figure. Still don't need to separate the families - i.e. $30k and keeping them together on the face of it could be good too...
Re: "And what is your proof they are separating families?" I' not trying to prove anything - I'm assuming that members of the White House aren't making the comments that they are on fake news.
Yes you are, you just don't seem top realise it. How do they not seperate the kids from adults and maintain border security? Trump is already trying to get law changes, but that doesnt seem to placate the mob.
There's plenty of examples of refugee camps, holding camps - whatever terms you want to use - where families can stay together.
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@donsteppa said in US Politics:
How exactly? Mistreatment? How? And what is your proof they are separating families? That is kinda the issue these so called called families cannot prove they are families at all.
I think we've crossed purposes there - I've not been as clear as I should. I was trying to note and acknowledge/agree with your comment of spending US$35k as not a bad figure. Still don't need to separate the families - i.e. $30k and keeping them together on the face of it could be good too...
Re: "And what is your proof they are separating families?" I' not trying to prove anything - I'm assuming that members of the White House aren't making the comments that they are on fake news.
Yes you are, you just don't seem top realise it. How do they not seperate the kids from adults and maintain border security? Trump is already trying to get law changes, but that doesnt seem to placate the mob.
There's plenty of examples of refugee camps, holding camps - whatever terms you want to use - where families can stay together.
Yes and they can in the U.S. southern border. If they are actually families, use a border crossing and aren't felons. Which of those criteria do you think is unfair?
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@baron-silas-greenback I read the separation as happening regardless of whether they "are actually families", triggered automatically by the crossing away from the usual points as requiring prosecution.... though where they aren't genuine families, in those cases something hellish is going on beyond issues of (non)family seperation.
The Attorney General directed United States Attorneys on the Southwest Border to prosecute all amenable adults who illegally enter the country, including those accompanied by their children, for 8 U.S.C. § 1325(a), illegal entry. Children whose parents are referred for prosecution will be placed with the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR). The following are Frequently Asked Questions regarding Zero Tolerance Immigration Prosecutions.
Why Are Parents Being Separated From Their Children?
The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) may separate a parent or legal guardian from his or her child for several reasons, including situations where DHS cannot ascertain the parental relationship, when DHS determines that a child may be at risk with the presumed parent or legal guardian, or if a parent or legal guardian is referred for criminal prosecution, including for illegal entry.
Perhaps you can have "heart and security":
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If you rob a 7/11 or steal a car or assault somebody and get caught in America, unbelievably the courts there 1) don’t let you off ‘cos you got a child; and 2) don’t let you bring your kids and family into prison to live with you. Totally deplorable the way they treat criminals who break the law, at least, ever since Trump became president and cruelty took over. The authorities there take their kids and put them into foster care, separating families. It really is just like Nazi Germany..
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Well, well, welll. And the name on the byline, of all people, is Michael Isikoff. The winds of change...
Obama cyber chief confirms 'stand down' order against Russian cyberattacks in summer 2016
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Even the NYT — not exactly known as card-carrying members of the DJT Fan Club — admits this literally Nazi Germany concentration camp policy had been going on for 22 years, since the Clinton adminstration:
US Politics