ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?



  • Media tells us that Foster was trying to blood new players and give a chance to some who were recent but needed to get established. How well has this actually happened?
    While the programme was a bit disrupted and team selection plans had to react to poor performances, who do you think drew the short straw and deserved more of a chance?

    Dalton Papalii is one IMO. Not quite sure how he fits in but a bench spot at least would have been nice to see. He was looking in fantastic form when he turned out for CM. A real class above those around him.
    Luckily Will Jordan managed to pull off his opportunity even if he probably should have had more time.



  • @Crucial Cullen Grace, obviously.



  • PUJ.

    One sharp cameo off the bench then never seen again.



  • @Stargazer said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @Crucial Cullen Grace, obviously.

    Yep. They took a few options to find the solution at 6 and seemed reluctant to use them until it became obvious that Akira didn't get his fair go so they gave him another.



  • I'm sure if everything had gone to plan this last game against Argentina would have been used to give some of the other squad players a game. Winning the Bledisloe Cup was priority no.1 so minimal selection risks (from the AB coaches perspective) were taken in those first 3 games.

    You can't include any of the injury replacements in this list.



  • They just appeared too conservative to me. The new guys that did get a chance did prove their worth (Clarke, Jordan, AIoane). Just makes you wonder if others would have also done well



  • @KiwiMurph True, but he was only there because Ennor was injured. So not in the same situation as the other newbies.



  • I think what the lack of actual success and limited time for many palyers means is an even better SRA. The number of players that are playing for an AB slot is high, hopefully this will see a standards lift even better than this years.



  • Tough for Dalton to get a shot when the captain is at seven. That's going to bite us if he ever gets injured.

    Watching Akira's workrate and accuracy on defence (even stealing lineouts now), it's going to take a hell of a performance to move him from six. Grace is still pretty green, he might just have to wait like Akira had to, and get ahead of Frizzel in the pecking order.



  • Any/all halfbacks not called TJ



  • @Machpants said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    I think what the lack of actual success and limited time for many palyers means is an even better SRA. The number of players that are playing for an AB slot is high, hopefully this will see a standards lift even better than this years.

    Yeah. I certainly think that the last game showed that we really need a prop that consistently plays like Laulala did. He hasn't done that enough. Makes a huge difference to getting on the front foot. That is one target that I am hoping someone will step up into.
    I also hope that Aumua progresses. Coles is on the slide and Taylor seems to be a shadow of himself.
    We could do with another halfback stepping up too.
    What we really miss though is a huge multi skilled ugly lock. Anybody know of one?



  • Ioane is doing the opposite of what Read did. Carving up in one role at Super Level, switching at international and then dominating.



  • I think every few new guys got a decent crack and when the did they didn't get to build on it.

    PUJ looked good...hardly seen again
    AI looked good, only got one other game

    must be hard for these guys to know what they have to do to get a start...playing well isn't enough apparentlystrikethrough text



  • @Kiwiwomble said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    I think every few new guys got a decent crack and when the did they didn't get to build on it.

    PUJ looked good...hardly seen again
    AI looked good, only got one other game

    must be hard for these guys to know what they have to do to get a start...playing well isn't enough apparently

    PUJ got concussed, and was a fill in anyway



  • @canefan oh, id missed or forgotten that.



  • Another one is Tupou Vaai - he got game time but there's an argument he should have got more and come on earlier in his bench appearances.



  • @Kiwiwomble thing is, there has always been a history of 'loyalty' to the current squad.

    Tough to get into, but tougher to get out it seems.

    ANd an injury replacement doesnt mean that new guy has an 'in'



  • I'm not really a fan of the thread title, because it's the All Blacks and not the Under-10s. If you're not established as the best player in your position then any time you get is a privilege.

    Plus - we only had six tests, we struggled, and when Fozzie pushed the rotation button a bit, we lost (though players not on the park had a fair bit to do with that).

    That first bit sounds a bit sanctimonious - but, what I mean is a complete newbie like Cullen Grace - any time he got was a bonus.

    A slightly different tack - people who I'd want to see in the first test next year (based on what we've seen).

    Nepo Laulala, Scott Barrett, Akira Ioane, Will Jordan.



  • @KiwiMurph said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    Another one is Tupou Vaai - he got game time but there's an argument he should have got more and come on earlier in his bench appearances.

    When is that giant from the highlanders back from injury ? Surely he'll get a hoon ?



  • I think this is one of the worst failures of the coaches this year. The initial team selection was filled with out of position and out of form players and explained away as an “experienced” selection to lock up the Bledisloe.
    That only changed through injuries.

    After the Bledisloe was locked up they fucked up by making wholesale changes. Then panicked and reverted to the “top” team full of flawed selections after the loss to the Wallabies. Then the worst case scenario happened and we lost to the Argies.

    What this all meant was that we didn’t get to see some of these newer guys come in and play along side the top players. It was either in a team with wholesale changes or getting 2 min off the bench.

    Clarke should have been at 11 ahead of Bridge from the start.
    Frizzel should have been rotated out after the first two games to try one of the other options at 6.
    Jordan should have started early on.
    Papalii and Grace should have been given more than a handful of minutes.

    Unfortunately it means we are now a full season into the RWC cycle and some of the lessons that should have been had and some of the experience that should have been built, wasn’t.

    So, some big questions remain. Some have been partially answered but lots of the answers were “no this doesn’t work” with no clues about what does.

    Who is the best 6? Probably not Frizzel. Akira went well but we only got to see a short sample. Grace didn’t get a real shot. What is Papalii’s role?

    What is the most balanced back row? Akira and Sotutu both looked good, so did Cane and Ardie. But how do they all fit together? We didn’t try many options that didn’t have Cane and Ardie at 7 and 8.

    Are our back up 9’s up to it?

    Is Laumape up to it?

    Is Aumua up to it?

    Is RIoane really best used in midfield or should he still be a winger?

    Does RM+BB actually work or should we pick one of them at 10 and a real 15 at 15 eg. Jordie?

    Is it a good idea to play Jordie at 14 ? (The answer to this should be obvious) or are there better options?

    Is Pat T up to starting or is he only a bench option?

    Are JG and ALB being used the right way around?



  • @MN5 said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @KiwiMurph said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    Another one is Tupou Vaai - he got game time but there's an argument he should have got more and come on earlier in his bench appearances.

    When is that giant from the highlanders back from injury ? Surely he'll get a hoon ?

    He should be back for Super Rugby. He is certainly on the radar.



  • @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    I'm not really a fan of the thread title, because it's the All Blacks and not the Under-10s. If you're not established as the best player in your position then any time you get is a privilege.

    Plus - we only had six tests, we struggled, and when Fozzie pushed the rotation button a bit, we lost (though players not on the park had a fair bit to do with that).

    That first bit sounds a bit sanctimonious - but, what I mean is a complete newbie like Cullen Grace - any time he got was a bonus.

    A slightly different tack - people who I'd want to see in the first test next year (based on what we've seen).

    Nepo Laulala, Scott Barrett, Akira Ioane, Will Jordan.

    Just on that first paragraph (I can’t work out how to bold it from my phone)
    If you look at the team for the first game of the season im not sure you could seriously argue that all those players were established as the best players in their positions.
    In the backs it was only A Smith who was clearly the first choice in the position he was picked in.

    The fact is you need to rotate players to build experience and depth. Year one of a RWC cycle is probably the most important time to do that. Especially in a shortened calendar against an inexperienced wallabies and Argies who are ranked 10th and haven’t played for a year.



  • @Crucial said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    They just appeared too conservative to me. The new guys that did get a chance did prove their worth (Clarke, Jordan, AIoane). Just makes you wonder if others would have also done well

    Those two still fall into the category of didn't get a fair crack. In fact they probably top the chart even ahead of Papali'i.



  • @KiwiMurph said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @MN5 said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @KiwiMurph said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    Another one is Tupou Vaai - he got game time but there's an argument he should have got more and come on earlier in his bench appearances.

    When is that giant from the highlanders back from injury ? Surely he'll get a hoon ?

    He should be back for Super Rugby. He is certainly on the radar.

    Also, based on what I've read, BBBR is available for AB selection from May 2021.



  • @pukunui said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    I'm not really a fan of the thread title, because it's the All Blacks and not the Under-10s. If you're not established as the best player in your position then any time you get is a privilege.

    Plus - we only had six tests, we struggled, and when Fozzie pushed the rotation button a bit, we lost (though players not on the park had a fair bit to do with that).

    That first bit sounds a bit sanctimonious - but, what I mean is a complete newbie like Cullen Grace - any time he got was a bonus.

    A slightly different tack - people who I'd want to see in the first test next year (based on what we've seen).

    Nepo Laulala, Scott Barrett, Akira Ioane, Will Jordan.

    Just on that first paragraph (I can’t work out how to bold it from my phone)
    If you look at the team for the first game of the season im not sure you could seriously argue that all those players were established as the best players in their positions.
    In the backs it was only A Smith who was clearly the first choice in the position he was picked in.

    That's not what I'm arguing though.

    I'd say if you're Brodie Retallick and you spend the first five games sitting on the sidelines, then you can probably say you didn't get a fair crack. But, if you're Cullen Grace then that's just how it goes - you have to bide your time and when you get your chance, take it.

    I don't think there's anyone who can say they've been too hard done by - there are some guys who've grasped their chance when they've been given it.

    Perhaps the only guy who's got a real case for not getting a fair crack - if he wanted to make it - is Beaudy. "I'm a two-time fucking World Player of the Year and I'M the one getting shuffled". But, quite possibly he's quite happy playing fullback - that I don't know.



  • @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:
    > I'm not really a fan of the thread title, because it's the All Blacks and not the Under-10s. If you're not established as the best player in your position then any time you get is a privilege.

    Plus - we only had six tests, we struggled, and when Fozzie pushed the rotation button a bit, we lost (though players not on the park had a fair bit to do with that).

    That first bit sounds a bit sanctimonious - but, what I mean is a complete newbie like Cullen Grace - any time he got was a bonus.

    A slightly different tack - people who I'd want to see in the first test next year (based on what we've seen).

    Nepo Laulala, Scott Barrett, Akira Ioane, Will Jordan.

    I guess that's part of the argument, how do you become established if not given games...and how do you get games if not stand outs in super rugby



  • @Kiwiwomble said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:
    > I'm not really a fan of the thread title, because it's the All Blacks and not the Under-10s. If you're not established as the best player in your position then any time you get is a privilege.

    Plus - we only had six tests, we struggled, and when Fozzie pushed the rotation button a bit, we lost (though players not on the park had a fair bit to do with that).

    That first bit sounds a bit sanctimonious - but, what I mean is a complete newbie like Cullen Grace - any time he got was a bonus.

    A slightly different tack - people who I'd want to see in the first test next year (based on what we've seen).

    Nepo Laulala, Scott Barrett, Akira Ioane, Will Jordan.

    I guess that's part of the argument, how do you become established if not given games...and how do you get games if not stand outs in super rugby

    have the last name Barrett



  • @Kiwiwomble said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:
    > I'm not really a fan of the thread title, because it's the All Blacks and not the Under-10s. If you're not established as the best player in your position then any time you get is a privilege.

    Plus - we only had six tests, we struggled, and when Fozzie pushed the rotation button a bit, we lost (though players not on the park had a fair bit to do with that).

    That first bit sounds a bit sanctimonious - but, what I mean is a complete newbie like Cullen Grace - any time he got was a bonus.

    A slightly different tack - people who I'd want to see in the first test next year (based on what we've seen).

    Nepo Laulala, Scott Barrett, Akira Ioane, Will Jordan.

    I guess that's part of the argument, how do you become established if not given games...and how do you get games if not stand outs in super rugby

    I think you have to bide your time and take your chance when you get it.

    To be honest, I didn't find any of Fozzie's selections illogical - even if I disagreed with some of them.

    Giving Jordie yet another run on the wing at the weekend was starting to get close to it, but even then I can understand the logic, because they'd backed themselves into a corner - Sevu was pretty ordinary in his start and Will Jordan had barely played in two months.

    I probably would have played Rieko on the right wing, but he's made a couple of howlers this season, as well.



  • @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    To be honest, I didn't find any of Fozzie's selections illogical - even if I disagreed with some of them.

    I think not picking Akira against Argentina in Parramatta was illogical after the impact he had in Brisbane. When you consider how little impact Frizell had shown in the Tests he played in, Akira's non selection becomes even more confusing.



  • @akan004 I am not so sure, I think it was a knee jerk reaction, shit, we lost, lets go back to our '1st team' which is where you question who is the '1st team'

    Fozzie needed to take some risks, but I think that loss scared him into being conservative (in hindsight, Akira was the safe and best selection)



  • @Nepia said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @Crucial said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    They just appeared too conservative to me. The new guys that did get a chance did prove their worth (Clarke, Jordan, AIoane). Just makes you wonder if others would have also done well

    Those two still fall into the category of didn't get a fair crack. In fact they probably top the chart even ahead of Papali'i.

    Jordan may have had more time if he didn't get his head injured in Bledisloe 4.



  • We should have seen a lot more of Will Jordan, Akira Ioane and Hoskins Sotutu. Would have liked to see Dalton Papali'i and Peter Umaga-Jensen more and Jordie Barret given time at Fullback.

    Disappointed that Foster did so little to develop other options and younger players at Hooker, Half Back and First Five.



  • @akan004 said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    To be honest, I didn't find any of Fozzie's selections illogical - even if I disagreed with some of them.

    I think not picking Akira against Argentina in Parramatta was illogical after the impact he had in Brisbane. When you consider how little impact Frizell had shown in the Tests he played in, Akira's non selection becomes even more confusing.

    I'd say that probably Akira was a bit unlucky that he only got 20 minutes to show what he could do in that test.

    BUT, a bright 20 minutes on debut isn't compelling enough for me to say it's an illogical selection, and I don't agree about about Frizell's lack of impact either.



  • @sparky said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    We should have seen a lot more of Will Jordan, Akira Ioane and Hoskins Sotutu. Would have liked to see Dalton Papali'i and Peter Umaga-Jensen more and Jordie Barret given time at Fullback.

    Disappointed that Foster did so little to develop other options and younger players at Hooker, Half Back and First Five.

    yeah, especially when the person keeping Jordan out (before injury) was out of the positions he'd been playing all year, didn't have a lot of experience in that position, wasn't paying the best



  • @Stargazer He's 20. He can wait his turn like Akira had to.



  • @Chris-B Frizzell isn't terrible, he's just not the enforcer we need. He makes his tackles, carts the ball up to an OK standard but we need more from a 6 otherwise we may as well have Luke Whitelock playing there.



  • @African-Monkey said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @Chris-B Frizzell isn't terrible, he's just not the enforcer we need. He makes his tackles, carts the ball up to an OK standard but we need more from a 6 otherwise we may as well have Luke Whitelock playing there.

    oh burrrrrn



  • @African-Monkey Yeah - and I'd say Akira has probably supplanted him (for the next while at least).

    But, that's a different point than whether selecting Frizell vs Argentina was illogical.

    Don't forget that Frizell's team vs Australia had given the Aussies a thrashing, while Akira's team (and obviously almost nothing to do with Akira) had been beaten.

    No great surprise that Fozzie would revert back to his "top" team. Pretty logical IMO.

    And, in fact, he got asked whether he'd been tempted to play Akira and he said "very tempted".

    Quite often, AB coaches speak with forked tongue - but, in this instance I suspect he was telling the truth, because Akira got the next game.



  • @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    Giving Jordie yet another run on the wing at the weekend was starting to get close to it, but even then I can understand the logic, because they'd backed themselves into a corner

    That's the kind of idiocy we don't want to see from our coaches.



  • @Chris-B said in ABs 2020: Who didn't get a fair crack?:

    @African-Monkey Yeah - and I'd say Akira has probably supplanted him (for the next while at least).

    But, that's a different point than whether selecting Frizell vs Argentina was illogical.

    Don't forget that Frizell's team vs Australia had given the Aussies a thrashing, while Akira's team (and obviously almost nothing to do with Akira) had been beaten.

    No great surprise that Fozzie would revert back to his "top" team. Pretty logical IMO.

    And, in fact, he got asked whether he'd been tempted to play Akira and he said "very tempted".

    Quite often, AB coaches speak with forked tongue - but, in this instance I suspect he was telling the truth, because Akira got the next game.

    I see you've crossed out Hammett on your Shield and written Fozzie instead. 😉


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