Freedom campers
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="568520" data-time="1459360257">
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<p>Maybe we need new slogans on those wicked campers: we want your money not your shit<br>
Take only memories, don't leave your shit<br>
Keep calm, don't lose your shit</p>
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<p>Or </p>
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<p>This vehicle and its occupants are legally considered paintball targets in this country.</p>
<p>Thank you for your cooperation.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="568486" data-time="1459342395"><p>
"> </a>
Ultimately, we want their money, and we want the total spend, not the daily spend. The numbers say freedom campers stay substantially longer then average, so although their daily spend isn't that high, they drop the most money in NZ before they leave.</p></blockquote>
An economist for wicked campers, perhaps? <br><br>
Daily spend is very important if you attract more of the higher spending short stayers... Volume and value together matters, not only whether they stay for a long time in public car parks. <br><br>
Also with value it's the private sector developing and paying for accomodation solutions - and benefiting from it. Not relying on Councils to develop all sorts of free facilities for people spending $40 - $50 per day over several months because somehow they're more important to attract because we only value total spend per individual tourist. <br><br>
And that's without remembering Sir Paul Callaghan's comments on the importance we (still) place on the sector: <a class="bbc_url" href=" -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="568519" data-time="1459359720">
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<p>Ultimately we want big spending tourists , parasites whos daily spend is minimal aren't the ones we should targeting . People who stay in hotels , eat at restaurants and drop loads of cash on tourist orientated crap are the ones we want. Freedom campers are at the very lowest rung on the ladder and we shouldn't be encouraging them at all.</p>
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<p>You are either being deliberately narrow minded in order to troll or really are as stupid as the leftards you so despise.</p>
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<p>Do you really think that all freedom campers are of the feral freeloading type? Why ban the ability to 'free camp' entirely because of the bad ones? Shall we ban all rental cars for tourists as well due to the few that cause accidents?</p>
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<p>OK, let's go down your path and actively discourage this group entirely and only take in tourists that have hotel bookings and declare that they will only buy their food at restaurants. Now let's watch small town NZ dry up even more so that when we want to travel in our own country you can barely find a functioning dairy let alone maybe a small cafe or accommodation or the small attractions that make places enjoyable. The tourist industry will consist of overseas owned hotels and restaurant chains in Auckland and Queenstown with some bus tours to show them the sights out of town. Just like the 1980s.</p>
<p>All of those small town folk that are scratching a living with little tourist ventures and shops either self employed or working for these ventures can go back on the dole and add to the leftard pool.</p>
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<p>The type of tourists you want don't spread money around the country. they fly in and out and get directed as to where to spend. If you don't believe that general-ism then why believe the one you do about campers?</p>
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<p>Have you ever sat in a campsite, having a beer and chatting to these campers asking them about how they spend their time and money while in NZ?Asking them if the way they do it is common among others they meet along the way? What they think of the ones that take advantage? I don't think you'd be that surprised with what they have to say, it just wouldn't fit your 'permanently outraged' view on people that don't fit your ideal.</p>
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<p>For starters many of those that 'freecamp' don't do it every night. They will also stay in commercial campgrounds, DoC camps, backpackers and motels. They freecamp when it suits their needs and stretches their budgets so they can spend on attractions. Sometimes it is a case of arriving somewhere very late and leaving early to fit more in, or because they have just spent a few days somewhere expensive. They also dislike the ferals whose actions make it harder for them and will often tell them so. The facebook pages and apps they use to find where to camp actively promote responsible camping.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I totally agree that there is no excuse whatsoever for those that abuse the invitation and leave a mess behind them. They are certainly the ones that we don't want and also the ones that probably spend sweet FA as they freeload their way around. But don't lump the others in with them. This style of travel is an important part of the overall tourist scene. They may not spend as much in total as some others but the distribution of their $ is most likely different and sustains areas of the industry that the guided tours etc don't.</p>
<p>The long game view is also that these independent 'cheap' travellers return years later with fuller pockets to relive their experiences.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I am grateful that I had the ability to 'freecamp' at times in Scotland, France and Australia (where you can camp pretty much where you like). All in areas that I simply would not have got to if I couldn't do it this way. I'm sure the shopkeepers at Cameron Corner, St Cirq lapopie and Inveroran were happy to accept the small amounts I spent there and in turn when I go back I am likely to stay in more luxurious and expensive accommodation even if it is just a B&B.</p>
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<p>Yes, finding ways to eliminate the feral types is difficult but stopping everyone to stop a few is not the way to go.</p> -
<p>I think half the problem with this thread is all the different things we have in mind around "backpackers", "high end tourists", "freedom campers" and "ferals/messy buggers".</p>
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<p>I'm still going with "no mess then no fuss", in which case go for your life.</p>
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<p>Getting into economic impact assessments is a whole other kettle of fish...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="568486" data-time="1459342395">
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<p>Ultimately, we want their money, and we want the total spend, not the daily spend. The numbers say freedom campers stay substantially longer then average, so although their daily spend isn't that high, they drop the most money in NZ before they leave.</p>
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<p>Mate I live on an out and out tourist area of the UK and whilst the local economy is heavily dependent on tourism I (and most of Devon and Cornwall it seems) would say "Fuck off and take your money with you" to people who consistently cause problems with their chosen form of tourism. Be that dropping their garbage all over the shop, anti-social behaviour or whatever. The local councils also take that view. As well as this being for our own sanity it more importantly looks after and encourages the regular tourist who does not want to come visiting a shit-tip or a place full of loud mouthed lager-louts.</p>
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<p>I can't see how you could welcome anyone, no matter how much money they might spend over whatever time scale who is going to mess up your countryside. It shoves a whole load of sand in my panties and fucks up the rest of the tourist trade.</p>
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<p>Fuck 'em.</p> -
<p>problem is, like anything, it is simply the minority that give the majority a bad name.</p>
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<p>I wonder if it is more feral people from certain countries too, guess itd be tough to find out and would be anecdotal anyway?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="568537" data-time="1459369816"><p>
You are either being deliberately narrow minded in order to troll or really are as stupid as the leftards you so despise.<br><br>
Do you really think that all freedom campers are of the feral freeloading type? Why ban the ability to 'free camp' entirely because of the bad ones? Shall we ban all rental cars for tourists as well due to the few that cause accidents?<br><br>
OK, let's go down your path and actively discourage this group entirely and only take in tourists that have hotel bookings and declare that they will only buy their food at restaurants. Now let's watch small town NZ dry up even more so that when we want to travel in our own country you can barely find a functioning dairy let alone maybe a small cafe or accommodation or the small attractions that make places enjoyable. The tourist industry will consist of overseas owned hotels and restaurant chains in Auckland and Queenstown with some bus tours to show them the sights out of town. Just like the 1980s.<br>
All of those small town folk that are scratching a living with little tourist ventures and shops either self employed or working for these ventures can go back on the dole and add to the leftard pool.<br><br>
The type of tourists you want don't spread money around the country. they fly in and out and get directed as to where to spend. If you don't believe that general-ism then why believe the one you do about campers?<br><br>
Have you ever sat in a campsite, having a beer and chatting to these campers asking them about how they spend their time and money while in NZ?Asking them if the way they do it is common among others they meet along the way? What they think of the ones that take advantage? I don't think you'd be that surprised with what they have to say, it just wouldn't fit your 'permanently outraged' view on people that don't fit your ideal.<br><br>
For starters many of those that 'freecamp' don't do it every night. They will also stay in commercial campgrounds, DoC camps, backpackers and motels. They freecamp when it suits their needs and stretches their budgets so they can spend on attractions. Sometimes it is a case of arriving somewhere very late and leaving early to fit more in, or because they have just spent a few days somewhere expensive. They also dislike the ferals whose actions make it harder for them and will often tell them so. The facebook pages and apps they use to find where to camp actively promote responsible camping.<br><br>
I totally agree that there is no excuse whatsoever for those that abuse the invitation and leave a mess behind them. They are certainly the ones that we don't want and also the ones that probably spend sweet FA as they freeload their way around. But don't lump the others in with them. This style of travel is an important part of the overall tourist scene. They may not spend as much in total as some others but the distribution of their $ is most likely different and sustains areas of the industry that the guided tours etc don't.<br>
The long game view is also that these independent 'cheap' travellers return years later with fuller pockets to relive their experiences.<br><br>
I am grateful that I had the ability to 'freecamp' at times in Scotland, France and Australia (where you can camp pretty much where you like). All in areas that I simply would not have got to if I couldn't do it this way. I'm sure the shopkeepers at Cameron Corner, St Cirq lapopie and Inveroran were happy to accept the small amounts I spent there and in turn when I go back I am likely to stay in more luxurious and expensive accommodation even if it is just a B&B.<br><br>
Yes, finding ways to eliminate the feral types is difficult but stopping everyone to stop a few is not the way to go.</p></blockquote>
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First up that was a magnificent rant , BSG and Gollum have some serious competition . Just awesome .<br><br>
You have a somewhat romantic view of these people I think Not much I'm going to say is going to change you preconceived notion about my opionion of them , I think you should watch the video that Donsteppa linked to, I agree wholeheartedly with sir Paul Callaghan the absolute last thing we need is to be known as a destination for low end tourists . It's interesting to see the feedback from small towns is at odds with a lot of what you've said and the locals get fairly pissed off with having to support people who have no intention of spending during the stay and are so tight they park outside libraries using the free wifi rather than springing for a couple of bucks to pay for an Internet cafe . I'd imagine ratepayers wouldn't be very happy at having to make even more facilities for them .<br>
I don't see the point in banning freedom campers or backpackers but we need to get the message out there that their behaviour is very unwelcome and they should be treating this country with more respect than they currently do . Fining them as I pointed out a few posts ago would probably get the message out there pretty fast.<br>
Another point worth thinking about is the headlines overseas during peak season when these people are robbed and or assaulted when they are parked in the middle of nowhere , that's s lot less likely to happen if they opened their wallets and paid for a motor camp .<br><br>
As for sitting around having a beer with one , I'll pass. <br>
" so how are you enjoying NZ?"<br>
"Ja, ist good we sleep and scheizen anywhere we feel like it just like I read on ze Internet".<br><br>
Tldr? Watch the video . -
<p>I have found them to be fairly good for the most around the Waikato.</p>
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<p>My only problem is when I go to work or come home (I drive along SH1 for a while) and they come round a corner on the same side as the road as me. That gets the heart pumping. Happens a bit around Tirau.</p> -
<p>Who, anywhere these days uses an internet cafe? High end, low end, you're on the lookout for free wifi all the time.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="568551" data-time="1459374726">
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<p>problem is, like anything,<strong> it is simply the minorit</strong>y that give the majority a bad name.</p>
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<p>I wonder if it is more feral people from certain countries too, guess itd be tough to find out and would be anecdotal anyway?</p>
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<p>Yep. and it appears we're talking about a minority of a minority.</p> -
<p>I have no issue at all with coming down hard on those that abuse our freecamping laws. Impound vehicles, big fines, stop them at the border until they pay up etc.</p>
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<p>Putting stronger disincentives in place may deter a few and also provide local councils with an incentive to enforce.</p>
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<p>What I find strange is that some of the biggest moaners are camp owners who, with a bit of thought, could benefit from this group by providing their basic needs at a budget price.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="568548" data-time="1459374378">
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<p>I don't think anyone disagrees with that Catogrande. The trick is weeding out the scum from the rest.</p>
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<p>Ha! Yeah I almost changed my post a little after reading your <strike>rant</strike> post which was posted at the same time. Hard to disagree with a lot of what you said and to be truthful I wasn't bagging freedom campers as such, just the idea that if it brings money we should welcome it.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="568556" data-time="1459375577">
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<p>Who, anywhere these days uses an internet cafe? High end, low end, you're on the lookout for free wifi all the time.</p>
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<p>Y<strong>ep. and it appears we're talking about a minority of a minority.</strong></p>
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<p>To be honest I don't even know if internet cafes are still a thing but it would certainly rankle if you were living in an area that was frequented by parasites overloading the services you provided for them while spending fuckall and you happened to spy a bunch of them using your ratepayer supplied wifi they'd heard was available free on facebook.</p>
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<p> As for the part in bold when I was in Australia I had the misfortune to live and work with a lot of these people, hence my distaste for their behaviour, I'm not sure its really a tiny minority.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="568558" data-time="1459377619">
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<p>I have no issue at all with coming down hard on those that abuse our freecamping laws. Impound vehicles, big fines, stop them at the border until they pay up etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Putting stronger disincentives in place may deter a few and also provide local councils with an incentive to enforce.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What I find strange is that some of the biggest moaners are camp owners who, with a bit of thought, could benefit from this group by providing their basic needs at a budget price.</p>
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<p>Thats pretty much what I've been saying all along, not sure why you got so worked up.</p>
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<p>Just out of interest what do you think would be a price that would get them to stay in motor camps? I'd imagine a camp would pay a decent amount in rates and wouldn't be a year round money making proposition and when you stay there you get a basic kitchen, toilets, power ,showers and a degree of safety . </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="568712" data-time="1459415824">
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<p>To be honest I don't even know if internet cafes are still a thing but it would certainly rankle if you were living in an area that was frequented by parasites overloading the services you provided for them while spending fuckall and you happened to spy a bunch of them using your ratepayer supplied wifi they'd heard was available free on facebook.</p>
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<p> As for the part in bold when I was in Australia I had the misfortune to live and work with a lot of these people, hence my distaste for their behaviour,<strong> I'm not sure its really a tiny minority.</strong></p>
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<p>It's a % of the minority of freedom campers, who number 12,000 at most according to the Motorhome/Camper NZ guy (who is anti them) on Radiolive, which is less than 1% of our total tourist numbers. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="568715" data-time="1459416626">
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<p>It's a % of the minority of freedom campers, who number 12,000 at most according to the Motorhome/Camper NZ guy (who is anti them) on Radiolive, which is less than 1% of our total tourist numbers. </p>
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<p>I'd actually be interested in seeing if anyones done some research into them , what sort of stuff they want to do here, how they heard about it and what sort of numbers are giving the rest of them a bad name . It would obviously vary alot throughout the year but like all these things its a few fuckwits who ruin it for everyone else.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="568717" data-time="1459417176">
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<p>I'd actually be interested in seeing if anyones done some research into them , what sort of stuff they want to do here, how they heard about it and what sort of numbers are giving the rest of them a bad name . It would obviously vary alot throughout the year but like all these things its a few fuckwits who ruin it for everyone else.</p>
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<p>There's a PhD topic for someone - should be able to grab up some funding from MBIE, Motorhome type associations etc - although by the time they get their proposal done the media might have run the freedom campers out of the country.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="568713" data-time="1459416010">
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<p>Thats pretty much what I've been saying all along, not sure why you got so worked up.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Just out of interest what do you think would be a price that would get them to stay in motor camps? I'd imagine a camp would pay a decent amount in rates and wouldn't be a year round money making proposition and when you stay there you get a basic kitchen, toilets, power ,showers and a degree of safety . </p>
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<p>Not quite. You were advocating discouraging all use of freedom camping.</p>
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<p>As for campgrounds it may just take a bit of lateral thinking and cooperation from councils. Camping grounds do pay a lot for the largish pieces of land they own but that land also sits mainly empty for most of the year. It wouldn't take too much thought and effort to form a group and have off-season bulk rates sold through rental companies as a pre-purchase offer and the security of being able to ban/forfeit use for those that are undesirable.</p>
<p>Pretty simple to keep these groups in a certain area of the camp. Why not have these campers inside your gate paying $20 rather than parked down the road. If you supplied access to toilets, showers (metered), rubbish disposal, some power outlets for charging stuff and free wifi at that price you would capture quite a few. Sure there is a bit for work for you in cleaning and some added costs, but even at breakeven point you improve your cashflow. Profit would, of course, be even more desirable. However, through a whole lifetime of camping I can also attest to campground owners being a very odd breed of people in general so this is probably expecting a bit much.</p>
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<p>At peak times it is near impossible for travelling campers to actually get into commercial camps. The few that set a couple of sites aside for overnight stays get snapped up early in the day. This is where councils could save themselves a lot of angst by setting up temporary low cost areas at zero net cost rather than chasing around trying to manage those camping illegally.</p>
<p>Nelson is a town that has embraced and worked with campers to a good result. They offer overnight camping in council carparks in the centre of town where they already have security and toilets.</p>
<p>As for your comment about people freeloading on ratepayer paid wifi, you may as well say they shouldn't use the roads as well. Think of the internet as infrastructure. Even hotels (often the slowest at removing add on charges) provide free wifi now. The set up and monthly cost is minimal for councils to provide hotspots at places like information centres. Most packages are unlimited so it doesn't matter if you have a local senior citizen checking an email or 50 tourists Skyping, and with most being fibre connected bandwidth isn't an issue.</p>
<p>Meanwhile these 'freeloading tourists' are telling others back in their countries to come on over as well. Putting their photos on facebook etc. Word of mouth publicity that adds to the tourism marketing for free.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="568789" data-time="1459451042">
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<p>Not quite. You were advocating discouraging all use of freedom camping.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for campgrounds it may just take a bit of lateral thinking and cooperation from councils. Camping grounds do pay a lot for the largish pieces of land they own but that land also sits mainly empty for most of the year. It wouldn't take too much thought and effort to form a group and have off-season bulk rates sold through rental companies as a pre-purchase offer and the security of being able to ban/forfeit use for those that are undesirable.</p>
<p>Pretty simple to keep these groups in a certain area of the camp. Why not have these campers inside your gate paying $20 rather than parked down the road. If you supplied access to toilets, showers (metered), rubbish disposal, some power outlets for charging stuff and free wifi at that price you would capture quite a few. Sure there is a bit for work for you in cleaning and some added costs, but even at breakeven point you improve your cashflow. Profit would, of course, be even more desirable. However, through a whole lifetime of camping I can also attest to campground owners being a very odd breed of people in general so this is probably expecting a bit much.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>At peak times it is near impossible for travelling campers to actually get into commercial camps. The few that set a couple of sites aside for overnight stays get snapped up early in the day. This is where councils could save themselves a lot of angst by setting up temporary low cost areas at zero net cost rather than chasing around trying to manage those camping illegally.</p>
<p>Nelson is a town that has embraced and worked with campers to a good result. They offer overnight camping in council carparks in the centre of town where they already have security and toilets.</p>
<p>As for your comment about people freeloading on ratepayer paid wifi, you may as well say they shouldn't use the roads as well. Think of the internet as infrastructure. Even hotels (often the slowest at removing add on charges) provide free wifi now. The set up and monthly cost is minimal for councils to provide hotspots at places like information centres. Most packages are unlimited so it doesn't matter if you have a local senior citizen checking an email or 50 tourists Skyping, and with most being fibre connected bandwidth isn't an issue.</p>
<p>Meanwhile these 'freeloading tourists' are telling others back in their countries to come on over as well. Putting their photos on facebook etc. Word of mouth publicity that adds to the tourism marketing for free.</p>
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<p>I would be quite happy to see freedom camping discouraged, obviously this is pretty much impossible. I do maintain they aren't the tourists we should be targetting or encouraging at all, they are inevitable and if they do come they should know whats expected of them. If they can find out on facebook that theres free wifi outside the Blenheim library so they can tweet the ten most scenic places they've taken a public dump I'm equally sure if a couple of them park overnight in a spot with a sign that warns them they'll be fined $500 if they camp overnight in a van that doesn't have a toilet and then when they try to leave customs has their details and informs them they are stuck here until they pay up word will get around equally fast . I reckon they ones who are discouraged by that are the exact fuckwits we don't want anyway so its no loss.</p>
<p>My issue is theres a really fine line between a budget traveller who wants to see NZ which I do understand and someone who sees us as a soft touch to travel around while contributing fuck all and being a feral in the knowledge they'll never be answerable for it.You asked if I have ever had a beer with them, I worked and lived with quite a few for a year in Australia and I think I have a fair idea of what they are like. It occurred to me at the time if they behave like this here what sort of crap are they doing in NZ? </p>
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<p>The numbers Nepia quoted were way off according to the mbie its actually 60000 <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/77845470/60000-international-tourists-give-freedom-camping-a-go'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/77845470/60000-international-tourists-give-freedom-camping-a-go</a> The article says it really got started in about 2002 </p>
<p>So far they have $1.5 mill in unpaid fines too , thats bullshit. .<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/78464457/illegal-freedom-campers-owe-more-than-15-million-in-fines'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/78464457/illegal-freedom-campers-owe-more-than-15-million-in-fines</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="568887" data-time="1459491224">
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<p>I would be quite happy to see freedom camping discouraged, obviously this is pretty much impossible. I do maintain they aren't the tourists we should be targetting or encouraging at all, they are inevitable and if they do come they should know whats expected of them. If they can find out on facebook that theres free wifi outside the Blenheim library so they can tweet the ten most scenic places they've taken a public dump I'm equally sure if a couple of them park overnight in a spot with a sign that warns them they'll be fined $500 if they camp overnight in a van that doesn't have a toilet and then when they try to leave customs has their details and informs them they are stuck here until they pay up word will get around equally fast . I reckon they ones who are discouraged by that are the exact fuckwits we don't want anyway so its no loss.</p>
<p>My issue is theres a really fine line between a budget traveller who wants to see NZ which I do understand and someone who sees us as a soft touch to travel around while contributing fuck all and being a feral in the knowledge they'll never be answerable for it.You asked if I have ever had a beer with them, I worked and lived with quite a few for a year in Australia and I think I have a fair idea of what they are like. It occurred to me at the time if they behave like this here what sort of crap are they doing in NZ? </p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>The numbers Nepia quoted were way off according to the mbie its actually 60000</strong> <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/77845470/60000-international-tourists-give-freedom-camping-a-go'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/77845470/60000-international-tourists-give-freedom-camping-a-go</a> The article says it really got started in about 2002</p>
<p>So far they have $1.5 mill in unpaid fines too , thats bullshit. .<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/78464457/illegal-freedom-campers-owe-more-than-15-million-in-fines'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/78464457/illegal-freedom-campers-owe-more-than-15-million-in-fines</a></p>
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<p>It says that freedom camping is the main form of accomodation for 12,000 - which I assume is the figure that the Motorhome guy was talking about, and the rest do 'some' freedom camping.</p>