Defending your home



  • So, my Facebook feed over the past couple of days has been overwhelmed with "Free Benjamin Batterham" links. Basically amounting to "all this guy did was kill a scumbag trying to rape his daughter, let him off!" type stuff
     
    Bit of light research, and this is the reported story
     
    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/man-dies-after-breaking-into-home-in-newcastle-and-being-detained-by-homeowner-20160327-gnruib.html
     
    So guy wakes up, finds dude (who, given history, turns out to be a bit of a scumbag. Okay, a lot of a scumbag. Obviously not known at the time though) in his house, fight breaks out. From story above, dude makes a run for it, the home owner chases him, and detains him with another bloke. Intruder loses consciousness, doesn't wake up, life support switched off. 
     
    Homeowner now charged with murder. 
     
    Obviously, details to the media are sketchy at this stage, so it's hard to get a clear picture of what actually happened. But, what do you reckon on the murder charge? Fair enough? Bit tough? or let him go, he only did what we would all do?
     
    Without all the details, it's hard to make a call, but my initial thoughts are that he only did what we all probably think we would do, but it had a bad outcome, and for that, he should probably pay a price.



  • I've been following this too , the guy that died is a meth addict and a convicted rapist , I doubt anyone but his mum is going to grieve much for him. I hope all the people on Facebook are going to help crowdfund his legal bills because it's likely going to be up a jury to decide if he used excessive force in his altercation with the feral .
    Not sure if you followed the Trayvon Martin case in the states , I really feel for that poor bastard Zimmerman . It ruined his life.



  • Martin's didn't turn out too good either



  • True , putting someone with a gun in a mma hold is never likely to end well.



  • yeah without all the details it is hard to say, but I know if it were me in the same situation, the dude would probably have had a 9 iron in his skull, so I'd be in the same situation.



  • Well firstly; fuck 'em. Filthy criminal wouldn't have died had he stayed out of someone else's house.
     
    Secondly and more importantly are the legal issues:
    Whether it's possible for this to be brought forward to an impartial jury - most people seem to agree that you should be able to defend yourself, particularly within your home. 
    Whether the evidence is strong enough that the force used wasn't reasonable.
    As a mate of mine who used to be a copper was fond of saying; "if I'm guilty I'd always opt for a jury trial - juries are populated by idiots. Innocent I'd want to be in front of a judge."



  • Well firstly; fuck 'em. Filthy criminal wouldn't have died had he stayed out of someone else's house.

    Sometimes when you fuck with the bull you get the horns.  The homeowner did the public a service, the burglar was a grade A scumbag



  • In an ideal world you don't play vigilante, you call the cops, they turn up and deal with it efficiently. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.
     
    It said Batterham received facial injuries so a murder charge is really surprising, I would definitely have thought manslaughter more appropriate.....
    I'm assuming Australia doesn't have "degrees" of murder ?
     
    whichever way you look at it a horrible situation which you wouldn't want to be in, most of us on here are Dads, would any of us do any differently if some fluffybunny was in our homes threatening our other halves and kids ????? I'd rather not think about it let alone answer......



  • I'm of the opinion that you break into somebody's house or business, all bets are off. Let the burglar beware and all that.
     
    As for the feral mother whining about how now the burglar's kids are without a father - they were without a father the whole time he was in jail. And I'm thinking a convicted rapist and meth addict ain't exactly a sterling role model anyway.
     
    Feel sorry for the guy arrested, don't agree at all with the murder charge, hopefully it might be reduced to manslaughter or assault and if convicted a reduced or suspended sentence.



  • Not overly clear but did they detain him off the property? Kind of sounds like it, but on the street is pretty close in any case. That could be significant imo.
     
    I'm in favour of maximum force if some fuck comes into my house - why would you take the risk of a drawn out confrontation? put the punk down... and hope there isn't more than one.
     
    But if you've chased someone off, how far do you go? And if it turns out you're much bigger/stronger/more dangerous what responsibility sits with you to rein it in?



  • I guess the other thing to consider is that if this guy was on something, no amount of reasoning will solve it, sadly, violence is likely the only response, and in that situation, going overboard in my home would be very, very easy to do!



  • But if you've chased someone off, how far do you go? And if it turns out you're much bigger/stronger/more dangerous what responsibility sits with you to rein it in?

    what happened to that dude that chased and stabbed the tagger (which is obviously different defending yourself)



  • Not overly clear but did they detain him off the property? Kind of sounds like it, but on the street is pretty close in any case. That could be significant imo.
     
    I'm in favour of maximum force if some fuck comes into my house - why would you take the risk of a drawn out confrontation? put the punk down... and hope there isn't more than one.
     
    But if you've chased someone off, how far do you go? And if it turns out you're much bigger/stronger/more dangerous what responsibility sits with you to rein it in?

    This. Kicking the shit out of some scumbag in your own home is one thing. But if you have stopped the threat and elect to continue with the reprisals then you're on thin ice legally.
     
    However one less Wankpuffin (C: M.Okey 2016)) is to be considered a good thing.



  • Sounds like they should have dragged the scumbag back onto their property?



  • But if you've chased someone off, how far do you go? And if it turns out you're much bigger/stronger/more dangerous what responsibility sits with you to rein it in?

    FWIW I've been advised that if they're leaving, let them go.
     
    As to the other question; that's the difficult one to answer - what is in fact reasonable? If you're a 150lb weakling confronted with a 6'4" 250lb invader, grabbing a weapon seems entirely reasonable to me. But what if the small bloke is a jedi master, etc? Often the differences aren't so obvious. Then there's the delicate matter of whether they're on drugs so don't register pain like a normal human being, or your own adrenaline which may diminish your ability to determine that the threat is no longer present
     
    All in all, much better to not have someone breaking in to begin with.



  • yeah if they are leaving, let them go...although if they have just raped (or attempted) your daughter/wife, you are probably be a tad blinded by rage.
     
    I dont know how true it was, but when I was in the UK and I worked in an Offy for some extra ££'s to save, and one of the older guys said that if you kept a baseball bat under the counter, and someone tried something on and you hit them with it, you could get done, whereas if you grabbed bottle of wine and whacked them over the head with it, its fine because you have improvised rather than pre-meditated...sounded legit, but I still had a bat behind the door, expect it would be more of a deterrent brandishing it than a bottle of wine too!



  • what happened to that dude that chased and stabbed the tagger (which is obviously different defending yourself)

    Don't recall what happened to that guy. But that's murky territory aye.





  • thought he had, but wow, 2009, doesnt seem that long ago!! 
     
    extreme red mist there!



  • So a tagger is basically a graffiti vandal? I'd assumed it meant a guy that was wearing an ankle tag. Chasing a poxy vandal with a knife is waaaay over the top.



  • thought he had, but wow, 2009, doesnt seem that long ago!! 
     
    extreme red mist there!

    I thought the same, couldn't believe it was that long ago!



  • This is what happens when we track things in 4 year cycles!!



  • This. Kicking the shit out of some scumbag in your own home is one thing. But if you have stopped the threat and elect to continue with the reprisals then you're on thin ice legally.
     
    However one less Wankpuffin (C: M.Okey 2016)) is to be considered a good thing.

    Yeah but theres the possibility that you're so blinded by rage at the invasion of your home, the terror said shithead inflicted on your family etc.....plus if you detain them then you're potentially stopping any chance they can do it to anyone else ?
     
    Fuck, who'd be a lawyer......



  • Yep MN5, a muddy pool for sure. But - if you've stopped the threat any legal defence based on self defence is open to being ruled out.



  • Yep MN5, a muddy pool for sure. But - if you've stopped the threat any legal defence based on self defence is open to being ruled out.

    I have a spade and plenty of places to bury them...
     
    but unless you have 'em hog-tied and weighed down by the front wheel of my car ready for the cops, threat is real while they are in my house, watched enough movies to know they always get back up!



  • I have a spade and plenty of places to bury them...
     
    but unless you have 'em hog-tied and weighed down by the front wheel of my car ready for the cops, threat is real while they are in my house, watched enough movies to know they always get back up!

    .......and an alibi.....you were doing a Star Wars marathon at my place while drinking home brew.



  • Bo staff and wooden practice katana in the wardrobe, along with a pair of sai.
    Only issue is going to be choosing which. Sai, probably. Better for CQB and defense against weapons.
    Not to mention Mrs TA would get the shits if I put the bo staff through a wall



  • ...Mrs TA would get the shits if I put the bo staff through a wall

    Quite possibly the best euphemism ever.



  • I hope the wardrobe is nearby and easily accessible Nick?I have a fuck-off big Maglite under my bed, just in case the power ever goes down...



  • Shovel TR. You have a shovel.



  • I hope the wardrobe is nearby and easily accessible Nick?

    Its our walk-in robe, about five steps away. Three if I'm bricking it 😉



  • Don't waste time with pre prepared weapons, Master Ken can teach you everything you need to know.....
     



  • If you're someone who's wreaked revenge on a home invader then you want me on your jury.
     
    I'm quite likely not to follow the direction of the judge - since I've seen enough crap decisions from them. Knowing the law and having common sense don't necessarily go hand in hand.
     
    Fuck 'em. You turn up in someone's house, you're asking for whatever happens to you.



  • If you're someone who's wreaked revenge on a home invader then you want me on your jury.
     
    I'm quite likely not to follow the direction of the judge - since I've seen enough crap decisions from them. Knowing the law and having common sense don't necessarily go hand in hand.
     
    Fuck 'em. You turn up in someone's house, you're asking for whatever happens to you.

    If I managed to get a burglar cable tied and subdued I'd call the cops [but not let him know]  drag him down to the garage lay him on a polythene sheet and put on  disposable overalls and get out a few of my favourite chainsaws and spend a while trying to pick one out while discussing it with him at the same time "which one do you like? ................this ones a homelite xl12 same as they used in texas chainsaw massacre.............but I think my pro mac 700 has the sharpest chain at the moment ............ " by the time the cops got there to take him away I'm sure his mental state would have changed irrecoverably  without me needing to go to jail.
     
     
    Btw one of the guys I work with caught a burglar in his basement and knocked him out cold with a couple of blows with a pool cue, he didn't get charged with anything but the judge told the burglar he could  pay for the damage by working for him for a couple of weeks for free as the burglar was jobless and would take for ever to pay it off at $10 a week. Noel was a prick to work with at the best of times, it must have really sucked working for the old bastard for free and overhearing him telling everyone why you were there and hearing them crack up at your expense, nice work there from the judge.



  • Good chance they will plead it down to a lesser charge. Police often charge someone with a higher charge to give themselves some bargaining power.
    At the end of the day if you decide to go hands on with somebody you better make sure you don't inflict grievous bodily harm or death unless you can show you were in fear of grievous bodily harm or death yourself. And as somebody said earlier, as soon as the threat is gone you have to stop or reduce your level of force.



  • Good chance they will plead it down to a lesser charge. Police often charge someone with a higher charge to give themselves some bargaining power.
    At the end of the day if you decide to go hands on with somebody you better make sure you don't inflict grievous bodily harm or death unless you can show you were in fear of grievous bodily harm or death yourself. And as somebody said earlier, as soon as the threat is gone you have to stop or reduce your level of force.

    Without going into specifics have you ver been involved in a case like this? Not the murder charge, a homeowner defending themselves.



  • If I managed to get a burglar cable tied and subdued I'd call the cops [but not let him know]  drag him down to the garage lay him on a polythene sheet and put on  disposable overalls and get out a few of my favourite chainsaws and spend a while trying to pick one out while discussing it with him at the same time "which one do you like? ................this ones a homelite xl12 same as they used in texas chainsaw massacre.............but I think my pro mac 700 has the sharpest chain at the moment ............ " by the time the cops got there to take him away I'm sure his mental state would have changed irrecoverably  without me needing to go to jail.
     
     
    Btw one of the guys I work with caught a burglar in his basement and knocked him out cold with a couple of blows with a pool cue, he didn't get charged with anything but the judge told the burglar he could  pay for the damage by working for him for a couple of weeks for free as the burglar was jobless and would take for ever to pay it off at $10 a week. Noel was a prick to work with at the best of times, it must have really sucked working for the old bastard for free and overhearing him telling everyone why you were there and hearing them crack up at your expense, nice work there from the judge.

    Did the old bugger warm to him, learn to respect his culture and leave him a Gran Torino in his will ?



  • Without going into specifics have you ver been involved in a case like this? Not the murder charge, a homeowner defending themselves.

    I have in the role of first response but not as the investigator. That is done by the 'Can't I'm Busy (CIB) lot once we have made the scene safe for them. We can't have them getting a fright and spilling their coffee over their new shirt.
    Someone mentioned they were advised to let somebody go if they run or attempt to leave. I agree with this. I know of somebody who is facing deprivation of liberty charges merely for blocking a trespasser's car with their own to prevent them from leaving after having called police. The law is an arse sometimes, don't put yourself at it's mercy.



  • The law is an arse sometimes, don't put yourself at it's mercy.

    Yep - you don't have to go far to find demonstrably poor legislation. Not surprising given some of the clueless arses that are elected to Parliament.



  • Did the old bugger warm to him, learn to respect his culture and leave him a Gran Torino in his will ?

    None of that happened , he's still alive and still a grumpy old bastard.


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