Quitting your job without giving notice



  • So I've been put in a bit of a bind.
     
    My current job is a career deadend, morale is terrible, the place is falling apart and near zero investment in any IT in 6 years means I'm fast becoming out of practice on anything from this decade.
     
    Anyway opportunities are few where I live however one just came up for a decent large company, pay increase, decent facilities, exposure to new technologies, it basically ticked all the boxes. I applied and got a very positive call back the next day with an interview arranged for Friday. Happy Rembrandt!
     
    Now I've got a call saying there has been a change by the client and they now need someone to start Monday, the idea being have the interview Friday and all going well sign a contract then and there and start on Monday.
     
    Problem is I have a 4 week notice period and currently that means I would lose at least a weeks salary plus 9 days worth of annual leave..not to mention all the other consequences of burning bridges in a small town.
     
    Anyone had any experience of this either as the employee or employer? I'd like to think I could be upfront with management and we could work something out..but have been advised by other employees that they are pretty ruthless when snubbed.



  • Man, that is tough. Small town NZ or are you overseas?
     
    I don't know if burning a bridge with a company going down the tubes is a big thing. It's more just a moral thing.
     
    If it was me, and I got the job, I would tell my current boss the predicament and how I will help with transition even though I will have started new job. If the boss wasn't understanding and packed a huff, make sure your new company is aware upon starting.
     
    I'd jump ship, i think



  • Just do something really bad to get instantly dismissed on Friday. No worries. 
     
    While i think leaving a senior position without notice is a fluffybunny of a thing to do, i probably would for the right opportunity (for instance, if i got the CFO job at NZRU i would call my current employer from Wellington airport)



  • I don't have any advice to offer other than if you can access your bosses credit card statements check to see if there's a lot of receipts for " mechanics" at odd hours of the night . If so you're sorted .
    Other than that, good luck I hope it works out for you.



  • I've walked out on one job with no notice. Sales Assistant at Dick Smith. Manager was an arse, had a problem with me for some reason. Despite my sales being good he always made comments like "you just don't care do you...". Final straw was when he pulled me into his office to have a go at me about poor sales the past week, and I realised the stats he pulled up were not even mine. When I pointed this out he quickly closed them and said "that's not the point". I said fuck this and walked out on the spot.
     
    If you can live without the pay out for leave then I'd say go for it - you are leaving for the right reasons (career development) as opposed to having a falling out with anyone.



  • I'd be asking immediate questions of the new employer with those sorts of unreasonable demands.  It doesn't come across to me like long term thinking and/or planning has been in place.
     
    Now, if you are a contractor, thats no big deal.  But if you are looking to sign on as a permanent member of staff, then that's different.
     
    Frankly speaking, I don't think this is up to you.  It's up to your new employer.  If they want interview Friday / start Monday, then they should be negotiating the terms with your current employer on your behalf.



  • Why will you lose a months pay AND accumulated leave? Is that in your contract?
     
    Notice period is the expectation that you agreed to in your contract. You can resign and ask for an agreed date of 'immediately'. If they insist that you work out your contract then you can abandon your job which means they still have to pay you up to your last day of attendance plus holiday pay owing.

    Employees may resign at any time, provided they give reasonable notice. The employment agreement should be checked to confirm notice periods and final pay should be calculated. If the employee gives the required notice, the employer must pay the employee to the end of the notice period, unless the employee is justifiably dismissed during that period. The employment relationship continues until that date.
     
    The employee may be required to work for the full notice period or may be asked to stop coming to work before this date. In either case, the employee should be paid to the end of the notice period. If pay is stopped before the end of the notice period, the employee may be able to claim for wages owed.
     
    If an employee leaves work without giving notice, the employer is not required to pay for time beyond the employee's last actual working day. The employer must not deduct pay in lieu of notice from any amount owed to the employee unless the employee agrees in writing or the employment agreement specifically allows it.
     
    The employer must pay all holiday pay owing to the employee in their final pay.



  • What MajorRage said.
     
    If they think you're good enough, they'll wait. Or at least point out how much you stand to lose from making the immediate switch. Pretty shifty how the clients have made the change to the start date at reasonably short notice.



  • My parents owned a business for years and from memory they are quite within their rights to not pay out on holiday pay if someone leaves with no notice (that said, they were reasonable people so normally ended up paying anyway)
     
    I presume it arises from the fact that the company has to function one staff member down without notice. Could you take annual leave for the next four weeks from your old job at short notice? Then hand in your notice when annual leave approved. Leave paid out anyway, so they can't really keep it when it's already in your account. 
     
    Is 4 weeks the norm? I always thought it was 2 with most jobs



  • Why will you lose a months pay AND accumulated leave? Is that in your contract?
     
    Notice period is the expectation that you agreed to in your contract. You can resign and ask for an agreed date of 'immediately'. If they insist that you work out your contract then you can abandon your job which means they still have to pay you up to your last day of attendance plus holiday pay owing.

    What's the point of contracted notice period then? If you can leave with no consequence?



  • assume there are no issues with restraint of trade (although I understand these are pretty tough to enforce)
     
    Yeah I'd be up fornt with the new employers that you are keen but you know your old employer may want you to work out the 4 weeks...
     
    You could use your 9 days leave, plus you might have some sick leave you could use up for stress or something too which would use up a good chunk of the 4 weeks 😉



  • I'm also wary of employers that are so desperate to get you started as soon as possible - by that, I mean well within the standard notice period one has to give at a previous job. Always makes me wonder about the support structures that will be in place when you're sick/on holiday.



  • What's the point of contracted notice period then? If you can leave with no consequence?

    As this says
     
    "If an employee leaves work without giving notice, the employer is not required to pay for time beyond the employee's last actual working day. The employer must not deduct pay in lieu of notice from any amount owed to the employee unless the employee agrees in writing or the employment agreement specifically allows it."
     
     
    So you can have it written in the contract that the employee must reimburse the employer for notice not worked but most contracts don't. 
     
    Mine specifies that my employer can tell me not to come into work after handing in notice but they will still pay me, but it says nothing on 'days not worked'
     
    Of course this only works if you abandon your job without notice. If you hand in notice with a date of 1 month in the future then don't turn up to work they can take those days off as leave effectively wiping out any holiday pay owing.
     
    Either abandoning work or 'cashing in' 9 days to cover 20 will not leave a great impression and could hinder you when checks are done down the track.



  • Yeah small town NZ. I think a big part of my reluctance to just walk out (other than the money) is that its a really dick move, the company is crap but the ones who'll feel the pinch of my leaving aren't to blame for that and the staff here are pretty good buggers.
    I've ended up telling the prospective employer that I am really keen to make it work and have asked if they would be open to some sort of negotiation depending on what my employer says when I ask for an early release. I'm thinking maybe offering some limited after hours assistance or maybe making myself available to train my eventual replacement. I'd like to think current employer would like to soften the blow as much as possible so an agreement could be reached. They said they'd get back to me, not holding out a lot of hope but surely it's a good sign that I'm not the kind of bloke who easily breaks contracts right?
    The employer is a large IT firm providing support to various companies around NZ and Oz, from what I can gather the speed up in schedule is client driven to be supporting a new business unit, so they are just doing what they need to do to hold on to a big client so I don't think it reflects so much on them.
     
    I've checked my contract and it does stipulate losing holiday money as well. It's a weird situation where I get paid weekly but the notice period is 4 weekly. I've had a private chat with a couple other colleagues at similar pay levels and they are on 1 or 2 week contracts. I think they might have got burnt when the last IT guy left and made some changes there.



  • I've been working as a contractor for over a decade and while the concept of not burning bridges is important, I've always taken the approach of "may the bridges I burn light the way". If I'm completely honest I'm grossly overpaid for what I do, but I console myself with the fact I'm good at it in comparison to practically everyone else in the industry.
     
    My advice is to have the prospective employer explain why they can't wait a fortnight. If you're happy with their explanation and guarantees, give notice after signing the new contract and immediately take leave. In a year you won't give a shit about the missing week's wages. Become an indispensable and liked worker at your new place of work and make the most of the opportunity.
     
    [edit] If the large IT firm is HP, stay where you are.



  • It may be different in your neck of the woods Antipodean but in Welly in the IT sector word gets around pretty quick about contractors that jump ship as the projects they are on are 3/4s through so they can set themselves up for the next one.
    When work gets tight they are the ones sitting at home wondering why no one will take them on. Many companies have 'brownlists' rather than 'blacklists' and if your name is on it you won't get a look in unless there are no other suitable candidates.
     
    Flipside of this is that the employer needs to be aware of contractors needs as well. eg No contracts that finish late in the year so you are basically off work Dec/Jan. If a contractor is good then line up more work for them in advance and let them know...



  • Don't get me wrong, I don't jump ship before projects end looking for something else, I come in to turn red projects/ programmes green.



  • I've been working as a contractor for over a decade and while the concept of not burning bridges is important, I've always taken the approach of "may the bridges I burn light the way". If I'm completely honest I'm grossly overpaid for what I do, but I console myself with the fact I'm good at it in comparison to practically everyone else in the industry.
     
    My advice is to have the prospective employer explain why they can't wait a fortnight. If you're happy with their explanation and guarantees, give notice after signing the new contract and immediately take leave. In a year you won't give a shit about the missing week's wages. Become an indispensable and liked worker at your new place of work and make the most of the opportunity.
     
    [edit] If the large IT firm is HP, stay where you are.

    Ia m betting Datacom, they operate like this.
    But that is just a guess.
    I have done a lot of contracting, so much so that I even treat 'permanent' jobs as contracts.
    There is really no such thing as loyalty in this area, they would no hesitate to chop you if iut suited them, they would not keep you around if it didnt suit. Businesses are heartless, they just pretend otherwise as it required to retain staff and morale up.
     
    Your issue should only be about future prospects, dont feel bad. Leave the business to look after the business and yourself to look after yourself.
    If you think you are burning bridges in s mall town, that is a consideration. Not hurt feelings or leaving a company in the lurch.



  • There can be any number of reasons as to why a company needs to fill a position so quickly and Id be inclined to agree with MR. Where are the contingencies? Ok so its extraordinary circumstances. The whole division died in a unfortunate accident and they have a major client they can not afford to lose. They need someone to take over the account with the requisite skills or the company goes broke....etc, etc. Fair play, understandable.
    But if a company knows that the person they are hiring is leaving their former employer in the lurch to take up role within theirs, then Id have to think twice.
    I have have employed quite a few people over the years and i have on occasion had to employ a lesser candidate because the top choice needed to give more notice than we could accommodate. Too bad, so sad.
    I dont think i could hire someone who fucked over their last employer.
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  • BSG mentioned an company which is a good example of one needing to fill a position very quickly. If acting as a vendor they will often have a client demanding that work be fully resourced at quite short notice by the time needs and requirements are established.
     
    I agree with Razbra though. If you think there will be a grudge held by your employer if you jump ship then be very wary on how it may affect your reputation. It sometimes only takes one person that decides you pissed them off for some bad press to get around.



  • BSG mentioned an company which is a good example of one needing to fill a position very quickly. If acting as a vendor they will often have a client demanding that work be fully resourced at quite short notice by the time needs and requirements are established.
    I agree with Razbra though. If you think there will be a grudge held by your employer if you jump ship then be very wary on how it may affect your reputation. It sometimes only takes one person that decides you pissed them off for some bad press to get around.
    There's the flip side of that coin too. A company that hires people with no integrity are more like to lack integrity themselves. Id imagine they mistreat their staff and have high employee turnover.
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  • There can be any number of reasons as to why a company needs to fill a position so quickly and Id be inclined to agree with MR. Where are the contingencies? Ok so its extraordinary circumstances. The whole division died in a unfortunate accident and they have a major client they can not afford to lose. They need someone to take over the account with the requisite skills or the company goes broke....etc, etc. Fair play, understandable.
    But if a company knows that the person they are hiring is leaving their former employer in the lurch to take up role within theirs, then Id have to think twice.
    I have have employed quite a few people over the years and i have on occasion had to employ a lesser candidate because the top choice needed to give more notice than we could accommodate. Too bad, so sad.I dont think i could hire someone who fucked over their last employer.
    Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

    That's all a matter of perspective though.
     
    I had the opportunity to join two former female work colleagues in filing PGs against a male boss ( who I came extremely close to punching ) cos he was an absolute cock of the highest order. A real "corporate bully"....he got given the boot soon afterwards but in terms of the whole PG thing I know that those things have a habit of following you around and even if you are in the right as some companies label you as a potential trouble maker.



  • I reckon retiring is a good option!



  • You would not read about it. I have offered to forego my holiday pay as I have been offered a job in the field I want to be in for a 3rd more money and better overall package and work balance.
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  • Fuck yeah. That sounds like the business Raz. Go get that shit!



  • Im only really starting 3 days short of my full leave period. But i wanted to leave on ok-ish terms.
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  • Fuck yeah. That sounds like the business Raz. Go get that shit!
    Cheers
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  • Good job Raz!
     
    I didn't have so much luck. They came back to me and said they were impressed at my enthusiasm to try and work out a solution for the notice period. I had the interview which went very well and it was decided that if I was the best candidate then we would sit down and work out the notice situation. The decision was due over the weekend unfortunately for me as apparently one of their existing contractors in Auckland has now decided that he is happy to relocate and take the role. Bugger. And to top it off word is going around of potential 4 day weeks coming up due to the dire financial situation here. 
     
    On the plus side it has hardened my resolve to find something else and quick!



  • Well, I think you made a good decision - there is no right or wrong with these things.
     
    Maintaining an open discourse with all parties puts you in a good place when it comes to closing it off in your own mind. If something like this happens again, you'll be able to approach it with a clear conscience and the knowledge that you can keep it all 
     
    4 day week? Hmmm... might be good to use that time to find some work on the side, or dive into a particular tech stream if you're so inclined.
     
    You could even approach the decent large company you mentioned originally, and see if they even want a bit of intern work on the side. It might be "free" to them, but it is a chance for you to show your chops, learn a shitload, and perhaps build a bridge that way, pick up a mentor etc.



  • By tech stream, do you mean golf course?



  • Well, there is that I suppose. Or porn.



  • If you have a clause in your employment agreement which allows the employer to make deductions from your wages for leaving without giving the appropriate notice, change it. Wage deductions are about the only place an employee can unilaterally change employment agreements.
     
    http://employment.govt.nz/er/pay/paymentanddeductions/deductions.asp

    Employers can make a deduction from pay if:
    the deduction is specifically required by law eg PAYE tax, student loan repayment, child support
    the deduction is for a lawful purpose, is reasonable and the employee has agreed or asked for the deduction in writing. ‘Agreed in writing’ includes a general deductions clause in the employment agreement, but an employer must consult with the employee before they make a specific deduction under a general deductions clause. The employee can vary or withdraw their written consent to a deduction by giving notice in writing at any time. The employer must then vary or stop the deductions within 2 weeks of receiving the notice or as soon as practicable.
    the deduction is to recover an overpayment in limited circumstances
    a court directs that a deduction be made.

    Section 5(2) of the Wages Protection Act 1983 is the relevant legislation - pay a lawyer or get the Community Law Centre to draft you something, and email it to HR at work, and after 2 weeks, the employer no longer has the legal ability to make those deductions. Keep copies of the email(s), and if necessary, take legal action.



  • If you have a clause in your employment agreement which allows the employer to make deductions from your wages for leaving without giving the appropriate notice, change it. Wage deductions are about the only place an employee can unilaterally change employment agreements.
     
    http://employment.govt.nz/er/pay/paymentanddeductions/deductions.asp
     
     
    Section 5(2) of the Wages Protection Act 1983 is the relevant legislation - pay a lawyer or get the Community Law Centre to draft you something, and email it to HR at work, and after 2 weeks, the employer no longer has the legal ability to make those deductions. Keep copies of the email(s), and if necessary, take legal action.

    That's bloody interesting and could definitely have been a workaround. 4 weeks notice is a bit extreme especially since from what I can tell I'm the only person in the company that isn't on 1-2 weeks. Unfortunately I do need to keep them onside to make life easier but will keep this in mind if other opportunities arise.



  • You would not read about it. I have offered to forego my holiday pay as I have been offered a job in the field I want to be in for a 3rd more money and better overall package and work balance.
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    I just read about it



  • I just read about it
    Ha. Its gotten a little chilly in the work place. Current employer is being civil but there's no water cooler talk whatsoever.
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  • Ha. Its gotten a little chilly in the work place. Current employer is being civil but there's no water cooler talk whatsoever.
    Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

    I thought you were a landscaper ? you shouldn't be near a water cooler you should be on the tools.



  • I thought you were a landscaper ? you shouldn't be near a water cooler you should be on the tools.

    I thought he was a porn star.  So chilly is no good at all, but agree with you that should be on the tools.



  • I thought he was self-employed. Is he schizophrenic perhaps?



  • Show your current employer your internet browsing time spent on TSF and he may pay you to leave.



  • I thought you were a landscaper ? you shouldn't be near a water cooler you should be on the tools.

    I thought he was a porn star.  So chilly is no good at all, but agree with you that should be on the tools.

    I thought he was self-employed. Is he schizophrenic perhaps?

    who is Razbra, this random dude on the internet, that we all thought we knew, but clearly know nothing about.


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