Hillsborough



  • I've been following this story since, well since 1989.
     
    Here is an excellent article on what the recent verdict means to fans from Adrian, who was there:
     
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hillsborough-inquest-survivor-adrian-tempany
     
    I remember "believing" it was the fault of hooligan fans
     
    I remember Liverpudlians explaining why the Sun was boycotted in that city 
     
    I can certainly sympathise with the people who were discredited by the police and authorities
     
    I reckon it's a timely reminder of the importance of balanced journalism and I thoroughly applaud the courage and time it took for the effected people to get the true version of events out for all of us to learn from
     
    Read the article if you can, (there dis also a good video showing the events of that day - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-inquiry-anatomy-of-a-disaster-video  )



  • Just a horrible, horrible story. I saw a documentary on it once, don't think I want to read/hear anything about it again.



  • I watched this happen live on TV when it happened and while there is no doubt that there were major errors by police and subsequently a cover up of what happened to cover their arses. For that alone some decision makers deserve to cop it.
    But while there was a terrible culture within the force in those days you simply can't also ignore that the football culture of the time was also a factor.
    I was living over there at the time and went to a couple of games for the experience and it was fucken scary. There was a complete mob mentality from within a vicinity of the game and pushing, shoving and such were just part of going to and being at the game. That video shows just how the 'mob' had no regard for anyone around them or any sense of reason.
    Yes, innocent people died and bad organisation failed to compensate adequately for what transpired but I still hold some small feeling that the 'mob' aren't entirely innocent in what went down that day.
    There is an element of 'let's blame the authorities that failed to rein in our bad behaviour'.
    A complete tradgedy.



  • The families who fought for 27 years for the truth to come out are heroes. But it should never have taken that long.
    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-truth-96-liverpool-fans-11242855



  • I watched this happen live on TV when it happened and while there is no doubt that there were major errors by police and subsequently a cover up of what happened to cover their arses. For that alone some decision makers deserve to cop it.
    But while there was a terrible culture within the force in those days you simply can't also ignore that the football culture of the time was also a factor.
    I was living over there at the time and went to a couple of games for the experience and it was fucken scary. There was a complete mob mentality from within a vicinity of the game and pushing, shoving and such were just part of going to and being at the game. That video shows just how the 'mob' had no regard for anyone around them or any sense of reason.
    Yes, innocent people died and bad organisation failed to compensate adequately for what transpired but I still hold some small feeling that the 'mob' aren't entirely innocent in what went down that day.
    There is an element of 'let's blame the authorities that failed to rein in our bad behaviour'.
    A complete tradgedy.

    Care to elaborate?
     
    Can't really use other undeniable examples of violence on other occasions at other venues - only what happened that day in Sheffield.
     
    From the footage I see people excited to be there, keen to get into the ground before kick off. All perfectly reasonable human behaviour for 50k of people want to watch sport. I see no fighting, no overt drunkeness. The video link I posted is well worth 12minutes of anyone interested's time
     
    What was the bad behaviour that you claim?
     
    Rushing to your viewing position through entrances opened by the people charged with organising 50k into the stadium?



  • I watched this happen live on TV when it happened and while there is no doubt that there were major errors by police and subsequently a cover up of what happened to cover their arses. For that alone some decision makers deserve to cop it.
    But while there was a terrible culture within the force in those days you simply can't also ignore that the football culture of the time was also a factor.
    I was living over there at the time and went to a couple of games for the experience and it was fucken scary. There was a complete mob mentality from within a vicinity of the game and pushing, shoving and such were just part of going to and being at the game. That video shows just how the 'mob' had no regard for anyone around them or any sense of reason.
    Yes, innocent people died and bad organisation failed to compensate adequately for what transpired but I still hold some small feeling that the 'mob' aren't entirely innocent in what went down that day.
    There is an element of 'let's blame the authorities that failed to rein in our bad behaviour'.
    A complete tradgedy.

    A disgusting and ignorant post.
    I suggest you read the inquest report. The Liverpool fans were blameless on the day. It was the South Yorkshire Police who failed the 96 and are responsible for the their unlawful killings.



  • I watched this happen live on TV when it happened and while there is no doubt that there were major errors by police and subsequently a cover up of what happened to cover their arses. For that alone some decision makers deserve to cop it.
    But while there was a terrible culture within the force in those days you simply can't also ignore that the football culture of the time was also a factor.
    I was living over there at the time and went to a couple of games for the experience and it was fucken scary. There was a complete mob mentality from within a vicinity of the game and pushing, shoving and such were just part of going to and being at the game. That video shows just how the 'mob' had no regard for anyone around them or any sense of reason.
    Yes, innocent people died and bad organisation failed to compensate adequately for what transpired but I still hold some small feeling that the 'mob' aren't entirely innocent in what went down that day.
    There is an element of 'let's blame the authorities that failed to rein in our bad behaviour'.
    A complete tradgedy.

    Crucial,
    That is an ill informed and crass post based on a 'feeling' you have. This has been a cover up 27 years in the making and it has been finally torn down by years of incredible persistence & courage by the families and friends of the 96.
    Granted, football going crowds had poor elements in them in those days but the fans were completely exonerated by the exhaustive enquiries.
    I suggest you take the time to understand this before writing ill informed comments on the web on an incredibly emotive subject.



  • The Hillsborough drama took place only some years after the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels (1985), which also involved Liverpool fans and cost the lives of 39 people (32 Italians). They had an awful reputation all over Europe at the time, as most other English football fans. I think this has not helped their case in the aftermath of Hillsborough, because in the Heysel drama Liverpool fans were the main culprits.
     
    But even the investigations of the Heysel Stadium disaster showed that not just fans were to blame, but also Brussels police and some (football) officials. All criminal and administrative proceedings following Heysel were finalised in 1989, four years after it happened. It is mind-boggling that it took 27 years for the truth to come out about the Hillsbrough drama, and survivors/relatives have had to wait so long. I hope they find peace and will now finally be able to go on with their lives.



  • The Hillsborough drama took place only some years after the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels (1985), which also involved Liverpool fans and cost the lives of 39 people (32 Italians). They had an awful reputation all over Europe at the time, as most other English football fans. I think this has not helped their case in the aftermath of Hillsborough, because in the Heysel drama Liverpool fans were the main culprits.

    And there is the bane of the human condition - not having a go at you Stargazer, you correctly report an accurate observation
     
    Humans have difficulty separating unrelated events that share coincidental factors or cohorts, thus we've got racism and stereotyping as everyday behaviours.
     
    The people rightly ask for Hillsborough to be considered in isolation.



  • The Hillsborough drama took place only some years after the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels (1985), which also involved Liverpool fans and cost the lives of 39 people (32 Italians). They had an awful reputation all over Europe at the time, as most other English football fans. I think this has not helped their case in the aftermath of Hillsborough, because in the Heysel drama Liverpool fans were the main culprits.
    But even the investigations of the Heysel Stadium disaster showed that not just fans were to blame, but also Brussels police and some (football) officials. All criminal and administrative proceedings following Heysel were finalised in 1989, four years after it happened. It is mind-boggling that it took 27 years for the truth to come out about the Hillsbrough drama, and survivors/relatives have had to wait so long. I hope they find peace and will now finally be able to go on with their lives.
    Interestingly enough, in both cases, inadequate stadia and refusal to move or mitigate this were major factors in both tragedies unfolding. LFC asked for stadium moves.
    Both tragedies read like a horror book of errors. Not trying to absolve blame of LFC fans here but it is interesting to read fan accounts and reporting here.
    Heysel was indeed a tragedy.



  • Can I suggest that everyone jumping all over my post takes a moment to actually read it.
    I will try and make my comments clearer.
    The police management and actions on the day were very poor and safety was overlooked. I remember watching in disgust as spectators trying to escape the crush were beaten back.
    I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame.
    What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner.
    I think that Siam is seeing those pictures of fans outside with rose tinted specs. Even the video he posted explained that there was a fear of a death outside from the crush and there was a shot of someone in distress being lifted out. That's not normal civilized behavior or recognition of a situation. It may have been the norm at the time but that doesn't mean that it doesn't add risk. That's what I meant by behavior.



  • Can I suggest that everyone jumping all over my post takes a moment to actually read it.
    I will try and make my comments clearer.
    The police management and actions on the day were very poor and safety was overlooked. I remember watching in disgust as spectators trying to escape the crush were beaten back.
    I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame.
    What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner.
    I think that Siam is seeing those pictures of fans outside with rose tinted specs. Even the video he posted explained that there was a fear of a death outside from the crush and there was a shot of someone in distress being lifted out. That's not normal civilized behavior or recognition of a situation. It may have been the norm at the time but that doesn't mean that it doesn't add risk. That's what I meant by behavior.

    Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?



  • Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?

    Stop being so precious.
    I'm not victim blaming but if you see those fans outside the ground as having no responsibility for their behavior at all then we obviously differ.
    Did their behavior cause deaths? No. Did it contribute to the situation, yes.



  • I totally agree with the findings including the one that says fans were not to blame.
    What I posed was that I felt that the fans contributed to what happened in a manner.

    Two statements completely and utterly at odds. But well done for your disgraceful victim blaming attack on innocent people.



  • If you can find this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film)  its well worth watching. Its very hard going but Eccleston is superb as the father. 
     
    Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?



  • Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.



  • If you can find this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_(film)  its well worth watching. Its very hard going but Eccleston is superb as the father. 
     
    Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?

    I think prosecution for the actions on the day will be unlikely but the cover up? I bloody well hope so. It was disgraceful.



  • I think prosecution for the actions on the day will be unlikely but the cover up? I bloody well hope so. It was disgraceful.

    I was pretty young when it happened but I remember the fans being blamed, watching that film made me pretty angry about the stories that had come out and how at the end they talked about some of  the head cops getting promotions ffs after the inquest.



  • Two statements completely and utterly at odds. But well done for your disgraceful victim blaming attack on innocent people.
    Total rubbish.
    The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation.
    Where have I blamed victims?
    We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening.
    Those charged with upholding safety failed.
    If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.



  • Total rubbish.
    The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation.
    Where have I blamed victims?
    We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening.
    Those charged with upholding safety failed.
    If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.

    I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.



  • I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.

    I doubt the cops involved expected it would turn out that way either, however reckless/negligent thier actions were.



  • Crucial, no one knew what was going on outside the stadium.
    The negligence to open the gate was the main reason for the escalation of the problem. Fans were simply trying to get inside the stadium to watch a game of football. The only people who knew a dangerous crush was happening were the people being crushed
    Probably best to leave this alone mate!



  • Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?

    Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials



  • Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.

    I went to a boxing day game at Goodison Park a few years ago with my gf's Dad, a die hard Evertonian. I don't like crowds / cramped spaces at the best of times, and that place freaked me out. I think it is the one of the oldest stadia in the UK. Seriously like a rabbit warren with loads of bottlenecks. You can see how things could go seriously wrong, and that's with ticketed seating. Terraces + poorly managed crowd inflows.....makes me shudder to think about it.



  • Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials

    Excellent.



  • Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.

    true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
     
    Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
     
    A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again



  • true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
     
    Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
     
    A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again

    I watched the ESPN doco again last night, they mentioned a near tragedy in the Spurs Wolves semi 1981(sic).  You are right about the "stadium", it was built at the turn of the century (1900s) and was done up for the '66 WC.  It reminded me of a really old decrepit version of Athletic park



  • true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
     
    Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
     
    A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again

    Yeah. As I said, it was one of the go-to stadia for the FA. Many times Hillsborough has been used without incident but... Over the years there have been a few examples of outdated stadia and disasters. Not always crowd related but a good indication of their fitness for purpose in the modern era. In 1985 there was the Heysel thing and also the Bradford City fire. Two different problems but the commonality was outdated infrastructure. In a similar vein the Ibrox disaster in 1971.



  • Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?

    To Kelvin became a verb in Fleet Street at the time. "Have you been on holiday"? "Yes, two weeks Kelvin"
     
    Lying in the Sun.



  • I watched the ESPN doco again last night, they mentioned a near tragedy in the Spurs Wolves semi 1981(sic).  You are right about the "stadium", it was built at the turn of the century (1900s) and was done up for the '66 WC.  It reminded me of a really old decrepit version of Athletic park

    Yeah the initial semi-final was played at Hillsborough and in near identical circumstances the same issues arose. The Spurs fans were segregated down at the Leppings Lane end of the ground (The smaller end and also where the Liverpool supporters were sent. In both instances they were by far the larger number of supporters). For the Spurs supporters, complete disaster was averted by the police opening the terraces and allowing the fans to spill out onto pitch-side. Ironic that the policing saved the day this time but  8 years later totally fucked things up.
     
    Lessons learned.
     
    Not.



  • Reminds me of something my commercial pilot trainer mate said when I asked the old "how safe is it to fly?" chestnut
     
    "It gets safer every time a plane crashes, it's a safety manual painted with blood" - sad but poignant



  • I wonder if Duckenfield,the officer in charge, will get charged now?



  • Total rubbish.The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation.Where have I blamed victims? It's quite simple. You said the 'fans were not to blame' and then apportioned blame by saying 'the fans contributed to what happened'.It's utterly wrong seeing as the fans have been completely exonerated. The FA are to blame for holding the match at an unsafe stadium, the police are at fault for their astonishing incompetence and subsequent cover-up and the ambulance service are to blame. Not the fans, not the victims.



  • I've taken the time to re-read the Grauniad article posted by Siam. It is undeniably a powerful piece and you can feel the outpouring of emotion throughout. The sense of a great injustice is undeniable too. But why did the journalist feel the need to put in that bit about the Freemasons?
     
    Quote "But what of the freemasons, those pantomime villains of the piece? In March 2015 David Duckenfield admitted what most of us had long suspected – he had been a freemason since the mid-70s. Remarkably, he was promoted to grand master of his lodge a year after Hillsborough.
    While the masons’ role in the cover-up remains unclear – if indeed they had one..." end quote.
     
    So, nothing to do with the 'masons then? Why bring it up?



  • Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief.



  • I was puzzled by that too Cato.
    Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions.
    I don't know. I guess after 27 years of evidence appraisal even the most threadbare trace of causality gets explored.
    I been thinking about the images and details in that article all day though. That lady that lost 2 daughters
    Poor buggers. I hope this stuff this week helps them. I'm sure it does in some ways.



  • Didn't see your post TeWaio. Hear Hear!!



  • I was puzzled by that too Cato.Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions.That was my interpretation.



  • I was puzzled by that too Cato.Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions.
    I don't know. I guess after 27 years of evidence appraisal even the most threadbare trace of causality gets explored.
    I been thinking about the images and details in that article all day though. That lady that lost 2 daughters
    Poor buggers. I hope this stuff this week helps them. I'm sure it does in some ways.

    I don't know. I would hope that is the case but it could also appear to be something of his own agenda. That would be a shame as it would degrade what is a great piece of journalism and in so many ways an incredible story of faith and tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
     
    The Duckenfield question is one that I would very much like to hear the answer to, but I fear this is unlikely. There may well be some form of financial compensation that South Yorkshire Police have to cough up but in reality that just comes out of the public purse one way or another, it doesn't really harm the South Yorkshire Police. The protagonists are now all in heir dotage, so any personal culpability is unlikely to get sanctioned but I would dearly love to see those accountable for the continuing cover up brought to book. After all it can be argued that the cover up was still going on until very recently.



  • Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief.

    Agree, She reminds me of Lawrence Dallaglios mother who campaigned for the truth after her daughters death http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/i-lost-my-daughter-my-friend-1113754.html


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