Too horrific for words - Moko Rangitoheriri case
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="582002" data-time="1464038596"><p>
In cases like this, why can't they be charged with both murder and manslaughter and let the judge/jury decide whether thresholds are met?</p></blockquote>
<br>
I thought you could? Lawyers??!!??<br><br>
It may be ignorance but I thought manslaughter was an automatic default option if not guilty of murder you COULD be found guilty of manslaughter. If not it should be. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="582027" data-time="1464042218">
<div>
<p>I thought you could? Lawyers??!!??<br><br>
It may be ignorance but I thought manslaughter was an automatic default option if not guilty of murder you COULD be found guilty of manslaughter. If not it should be.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Me too. But, if that's the case, why would the prosecutors stop at manslaughter for this one?</p> -
<p>If they try to charge you with murder, and fail, not sure they can go oh well manslaughter it is? Would that mean they walk free if they fail on the murder count?</p>
-
<p>My better half informs me that you cannot be charged with both manslaughter and murder for the same act against one person. However if you are charged with a more serious offense, then you can be found guilty of a lesser offense. E.G. an individual is charged with murder, but the Judge then finds him guilty of manslaughter instead.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>On this case, she says it is likely they are going for manslaughter in exchange for a guilty plea to ensure they are put away as they may not have had enough evidence to get the murder conviction (I.E. the specific act that led to the death). There is a far higher burden of proof to get a murder conviction. However it really comes down to the specific facts and circumstances of the case, and it's very difficult to make a judgement by reading what is written in the media.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>She has made an effort not to read about this case though as it will just infuriate her... She also doesn't specialise in criminal Law but thought I'd get her take on it.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="582053" data-time="1464046004"><p>
If they try to charge you with murder, and fail, not sure they can go oh well manslaughter it is? Would that mean they walk free if they fail on the murder count?</p></blockquote>
<br>
Yes, a second charge would be double jeopardy and would be thrown out. <br><br>
Re Reckless vs Dangerous Driving, the legislation is crystal clear that they are the same weighting - they are covered in the same sections, same maximum punishments. If the police say something else, that's fine, but the legislation disagrees with their position. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="581573" data-time="1463892843">
<div>
<p>Good article but what shits me is lawyers declaring at they are getting around problems when those problems and high burdens of proof were not the intent of the law in the first place, they have become that way through legal argument.<br>
This shit is like saying we aren't going to charge someone with dangerous driving causing death because that is harder to prove than speeding.<br>
The law once written becomes a self feeding beast. The law is written and passed by the representatives of the people but then becomes something that doesn't reflect what people wanted.<br>
When deliberate callous actions result in the death of an innocent child most citizens of our country call that murder.<br>
What's that line?" This isn't a court of justice son, this is a court of law"</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>The main issue with blaming lawyers and judges, though, is that murder definitions in NZ are heavily based on murder definitions in the UK, which in turn are based on Common Law definitions built up over 900+ years. Judges created most of the classic crimes as currently recognised (Common Law predates statutory law by 300-odd years), even if we've since codified them in legislation, and precedent still heavily informs much of how the law actually applies.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To give an example of that in practice, the Treason Act 1351 (still current law in the UK, albeit heavily modified since it was originally enacted) had provision for Treason (obviously), but also originally included petit treason, which was, effectively, aggravated murder, but didn't actually define murder as such, it just specified certain types of murder as receiving more serious punishment than the usual death by hanging (burning at the stake for women, hanging, drawing and quartering for men).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Another example of Common Law in practice in NZ is defamation - there is legislation regarding defences to an action, but very little actually defining what it is, or that someone can sue someone else for it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If we want this to be murder (fine by me), we can add it to the Crimes Act, or we can add it as an aggravating factor when sentencing for manslaughter, so they get longer inside, or are presumptively sentenced to life imprisonment, for example.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="592196" data-time="1466990990">
<div>
<p>Both sentenced to 17 years - longest manslaughter sentence imposed in NZ for the killing of a child.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Good. May those two sacks of shit rot (and learn exactly what other inmates think of child killers.)</p> -
Here's a case in the U.K that rivals the Moko murder.<br><br>
This guy is easily the worse piece of shit on the planet<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://nzh.tw/11663958">http://nzh.tw/11663958</a><br><br>
In case you had followed the case (UK ferners would have heard about it)<br>
He was charged for assaulting his little girl a few years ago but cried innocent. Some reason his conviction was over turned and went on a full pr exercise, tv shows the works. Said he loved his daughter he would never harm her. Was then given custody back, a massive fatal mistake. Other family members fought to stop him, seems they didn't believe the bs. Even the poor little thing begged not too be returned to him. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="592222" data-time="1466992816">
<div>
<p>Here's a case in the U.K that rivals the Moko murder.<br><br>
This guy is easily the worse piece of shit on the planet<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://nzh.tw/11663958">http://nzh.tw/11663958</a><br><br>
In case you had followed the case (UK ferners would have heard about it)<br>
He was charged for assaulting his little girl a few years ago but cried innocent. Some reason his conviction was over turned and went on a full pr exercise, tv shows the works. Said he loved his daughter he would never harm her. Was then given custody back, a massive fatal mistake. Other family members fought to stop him, seems they didn't believe the bs. Even the poor little thing begged not too be returned to him.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>You can't read that sort of stuff without your heart breaking. To do that to ANY child would be unthinkable, your own is just one step further down the chain to complete depravity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I guess you just have to hope the old clichés about child killers/sexual offenders etc getting it tough in prison are true.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="592226" data-time="1466993091">
<div>
<p>You can't read that sort of stuff without your heart breaking. To do that to ANY child would be unthinkable, your own is just one step further down the chain to complete depravity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I guess you just have to hope the old clichés about child killers/sexual offenders etc getting it tough in prison are true.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I knew a guy who was put in jail for drug charges, but spent two weeks in maximum security prison while he was being sentenced (which in itself was fucking ridiculous given his charges). He said it was the scariest two weeks of his life and yes, what you hear about child killers/sexual offenders is all true and some. Daily beatings. Those two won't have a good time in prison.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="592222" data-time="1466992816">
<div>
<p>Here's a case in the U.K that rivals the Moko murder.<br><br>
This guy is easily the worse piece of shit on the planet<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://nzh.tw/11663958">http://nzh.tw/11663958</a><br><br>
In case you had followed the case (UK ferners would have heard about it)<br>
He was charged for assaulting his little girl a few years ago but cried innocent. Some reason his conviction was over turned and went on a full pr exercise, tv shows the works. Said he loved his daughter he would never harm her. Was then given custody back, a massive fatal mistake. Other family members fought to stop him, seems they didn't believe the bs. Even the poor little thing begged not too be returned to him.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>That judge. Holy shit. And the grandparents who provided such good loving care. Massive, massive failure by the court system.</p> -
Attorney General has explained the rationale for accepting a manslaughter conviction over a murder trial - basically didn't think they could hold both fully to account, and the evidence was marginal without the information from each of the offenders, which may not have been forthcoming without downgrading the charges.
-
<p>Do you guys ( and girl ) think this sort of thing resonates more if you have kids yourself ? interested to hear viewpoints. For whatever reason I've found myself getting updates on the James Bulgar case over the years, I have vivid memories of the fury I felt when I was living in London doing the good old Kiwi OE and hearing about how one of the killers was allowed out to go to football games, had a PlayStation etc. I also remember details of how they killed him and what they actually did to end the poor kids life, Google it if you want, I'm not gonna bring myself to actually write it down.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>When reading about the stuff on the papers on the tube in London I wasn't a Dad, had no intention of ever being one truth be told but even then it still broke my heart. However this feeling was multiplied when I read details of their "rehabilitation", this would have been around 2010 from memory as MN5 the elder who turned 8 yesterday was 2. I put myself in the position of JBs mother, turning her back for a few moments and losing her little man in the mall, we've all been there but what are the chances that two fucken psycho KIDS of ten years of age would grab the boy and brutally murder him ?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You would NEVER forgive yourself as a parent.</p> -
<p>If there's one thing I can't stand it's arsehole parents telling people that don't have kids that "you wouldn't understand because you're not a parent". I call bullshit on that, it's not a difficult thing to grasp. People are all different and have varying degrees of empathy. No doubt there are people with kids but very little empathy that couldn't give a fuck, and people without kids that are very empathetic and get very upset by cases like this.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In saying that, for me personally I do think cases like this impact me more now that I have little NQ junior running around. I guess it is easier now to imagine my child in that situation and how that would affect me. But everybody has loved ones so it's not a foreign concept, and there are 1000s of arsehole parents that couldn't give two fucks. So you can't generalise on stuff like this.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Edit - not that that is what you guys were doing, that scorn is aimed at other parents I see on social media etc.</p> -
<p>It was a different type of situation; the fire that killed the Doha triplets happened about a year after my eldest was born, and I can remember it affecting me 'unusually' strongly. Having one little one in the house for the first time, I just couldn't process the possibility of losing any kids, let alone losing three of your own all at the same time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Like NQ, I'm normally suspect of people claiming 'you have to be a parent to understand XYZ', but this definitely hit me in a way that it wouldn't have two years previously.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It was a case of Brain Just Cannot Compute. Situation Impossible. This Cannot Be.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="592256" data-time="1467001698"><p>
It was a different type of situation; the fire that killed the Doha triplets happened about a year after my eldest was born, and I can remember it affecting me 'unusually' strongly. Having one little one in the house for the first time, I just couldn't process the possibility of losing any kids, let alone losing three of your own all at the same time.<br><br>
Like NQ, I'm normally suspect of people claiming 'you have to be a parent to understand XYZ', but this definitely hit me in a way that it wouldn't have two years previously.<br><br>
It was a case of Brain Just Cannot Compute. <br><br>
Situation Impossible. This Cannot Be.</p></blockquote>
<br>
The mother of those triplets is mrs Jeggas friend , I didn't go to the funeral apparently it was as awful as you'd expect . The father turned up to the mall to see if his kids were OK and the head firefighter pulled out his phone and flicked through the photos and asked him which kids were his . I can't even begin to know how you'd deal with a scene like that .