Ardie Savea



  • Honestly, I don't get the press on Ardie... am I missing something?
     
    Give me some examples that hes as good as everyone says he is...
     
    My feelings are that hes begun to believe his own press too much, 
    I see him make running breaks then make poor decisions leading to turn-overs.
    He turned down the 7s - I don't think he actually contributed that much while he play this year anyway
    Then this stuff in Durban...
     
    Enlighten me...



  • Nah. I reckon he's ok. Will be a super star imo.
    And i don't HE is saying he's good. I think you're projecting. It's "us" who are saying hes5 good.
    Cane will play 7 this year though. And could stay ahead of him.



  • Give me some examples that hes as good as he says.
    .

    Actually that pisses me off. When has he said he's good?? That's crap coastie.



  • Fixed... fair call, I should have proofed my OP. And it was average writing on my behalf.
     
    But still... I just don't see it...



  • see if Shag agrees with you ,Im predicting he will be tried off the bench this year , we haven't seen him at the highest level yet ,and that is where we find out



  • Ardie Savea is 7 feet tall and shoots fire from his ass.
    Nailed on future hall of famer



  • I buy him as impact off the bench. I think he could outstanding there - same way Barrett has & SBW too last year. I'm not sold on him starting (as with Barrett) as I'm not sure if he's ideal in any position, nor that he can do the core role of that position as the ABs define it. At a super level sure, but test rugby is different.
     
    He's not as unique as many seem to feel too, there's shades of Blowers, Vito, Masoe, Messam, Brewer, Schuler & Rush. All amzing atheletes but 7's? 6's? 8's? Blowers was astoishing in his early days, but he didn't do the core test roles of a 6 or a 7 well enough. He did them, there were just others who did them better & sure they might not have been able to go length of the field through 4 tackles in a super game, but that matters less in tests. Rush did the roles of a 7 to a level that his best position was wing.
     
    I am looking forward to seeing him sub on with 20 to go as the game loosens up tho'. Alongside Barrett. Who I REALLY do not want starting either.


  • Banned

    I'm a Canes fan so obviously biased but I think he's a potential superstar. He does his core work very well but has that extra dimension that separates him from most 7s. Just hope he doesn't pick up big bros pie eating habits.



  • Ardie is the Canes best. His work rate is top notch and if you have been watching them this season he has the athletic ability and determination in the tackle that makes it bloody difficult for the opposition to bring him down. 
     
    On defense his stats speak for themselves. He gets around the park superbly and he is not afraid to put his head into dark places.
     
    I agree with most that the best spot for him this year is to come off the pine for the All Blacks in the last 20.



  • To me, it's still:
     
    Cane
    Todd
    then Savea
     
    Todd is consistently good, Savea is good in moments. I trust Todd's experience and consistency more in important games. I'd keep Savea for the EOYT.



  • I buy him as impact off the bench. I think he could outstanding there - same way Barrett has & SBW too last year. I'm not sold on him starting (as with Barrett) as I'm not sure if he's ideal in any position, nor that he can do the core role of that position as the ABs define it. At a super level sure, but test rugby is different.
     
    He's not as unique as many seem to feel too, there's shades of Blowers, Vito, Masoe, Messam, Brewer, Schuler & Rush. All amzing atheletes but 7's? 6's? 8's? Blowers was astoishing in his early days, but he didn't do the core test roles of a 6 or a 7 well enough. He did them, there were just others who did them better & sure they might not have been able to go length of the field through 4 tackles in a super game, but that matters less in tests. Rush did the roles of a 7 to a level that his best position was wing.
     
    I am looking forward to seeing him sub on with 20 to go as the game loosens up tho'. Alongside Barrett. Who I REALLY do not want starting either.

    What does Savea lack that you want a test number 7 to have? He wins plenty of turnovers, makes a lot of tackles and is always there in support. Then he does the extra stuff as well. Savea would be amazing off the bench and if Cane gets injured, Savea will be selected and he will be amazing at that too.
     
    Savea has been one of the best forwards in Super Rugby this season.



  • Fair enough. I would rather Savea come off the bench than Todd though. Todd probably doesn't have the same impact as Savea. 
     
    Ardie was a massive loss for us in the final last year. He killed Pocock in that Semi Final. If you want to watch Ardie at his best that game was it.
     
    And to think the All Blacks would be weak without McCaw. 
     
    How old is Todd?? It seems like hes been around for ages.



  • To me, it's still:
     
    Cane
    Todd
    then Savea
     
    Todd is consistently good, Savea is good in moments. I trust Todd's experience and consistency more in important games. I'd keep Savea for the EOYT.

    Fair enough. I would rather Savea come off the bench than Todd though. Todd probably doesn't have the same impact as Savea. 
     
    Ardie was a massive loss for us in the final last year. He killed Pocock in that Semi Final. If you want to watch Ardie at his best that game was it.
     
    And to think the All Blacks would be weak without McCaw. 
     
    How old is Todd?? It seems like hes been around for ages.



  • What does Savea lack that you want a test number 7 to have? He wins plenty of turnovers, makes a lot of tackles and is always there in support. Then he does the extra stuff as well. Savea would be amazing off the bench and if Cane gets injured, Savea will be selected and he will be amazing at that too.
     
    Savea has been one of the best forwards in Super Rugby this season.

    I agree 100%. His work rate is second to none. He has a bloody massive ticker and along with Goodes and Coles he really holds our forward pack together.
     
    He will be a massive loss for tomorrow night. Callum Gibbins will have to play out of his skin to even have anywhere near the impact that Savea has for us week in, week out.



  • How old is Todd?? It seems like hes been around for ages.

    According to his Crusaders' profile, he's 28. I see him at most as Cane's back-up up to and including the Lions tour. A good period for Ardie to mature (which he seems to need), before he takes over from Todd - unless there are others knocking on the ABs door by then.



  • According to his Crusaders' profile, he's 28. I see him at most as Cane's back-up up to and including the Lions tour. A good period for Ardie to mature (which he seems to need), before he takes over from Todd - unless there are others knocking on the ABs door by then.

    Mature? Really the way he's been dominating this year I think maturing physically is the least of his worries. If I was Hansen I would want him in the All Blacks to learn from Cane where he can probably raise his game another notch or two at the breakdown. 
     
    I rate Todd don't get me wrong but wouldn't it be worth while investing time into a 22 year old who is just as good and will be in that environment for a lot longer. I can't really see any point in bringing a guy, aged 28 into the frame where he is probably close to winding down his career in NZ and will probably head over seas in the next few years.



  • Ardie Savea has played a hell of a lot more at Super Rugby than Sam Cane did when he was selected for the All Blacks.



  • Ardie Savea has played a hell of a lot more at Super Rugby than Sam Cane did when he was selected for the All Blacks.

    Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I take it that your probably happy for him to step up as you believe he has enough experience under his belt??
     
    From what I saw tonight Todd didn't really have enough impact on the game against the Highlanders to shout "pick me".
     
    Its fine playing blinders against weaker teams but you have to perform in the big games aswell. Todd didn't do that tonight.
     
    With that id say the two new loosies for the All Blacks this year would have to be Ardie and Elliot Dixon (that guy is so underrated its not funny)



  • According to his Crusaders' profile, he's 28. I see him at most as Cane's back-up up to and including the Lions tour. A good period for Ardie to mature (which he seems to need), before he takes over from Todd - unless there are others knocking on the ABs door by then.

    If we compare them to the 10s , 
     
    Cane = Cruden , Ardie = Barrett, Todd = Lima , 
     
    Cane and Todd are more your starters , Ardie is the high energy impact type , and that is how Shag likes to use his bench 
     
    That is the way I believe they will go anyway , time will tell



  • If we compare them to the 10s , 
     
    Cane = Cruden , Ardie = Barrett, Todd = Lima , 
     
    Cane and Todd are more your starters , Ardie is the high energy impact type , and that is how Shag likes to use his bench 
     
    That is the way I believe they will go anyway , time will tell

    Great comparisons. I agree. However Lima made a big claim for the starters jersey tonight. He had a blinder.



  • Mature? Really the way he's been dominating this year I think maturing physically is the least of his worries. If I was Hansen I would want him in the All Blacks to learn from Cane where he can probably raise his game another notch or two at the breakdown. 
     
    I rate Todd don't get me wrong but wouldn't it be worth while investing time into a 22 year old who is just as good and will be in that environment for a lot longer. I can't really see any point in bringing a guy, aged 28 into the frame where he is probably close to winding down his career in NZ and will probably head over seas in the next few years.

    I didn't mean physically!
     
    Todd has already been in the frame and is more "AB ready" then Savea. They don't need to invest in him as much as in Savea. And one doesn't exclude the other. That's why I said why I prefer Todd for the June series, and Savea (also) for the EOYT.



  • What does Savea lack that you want a test number 7 to have? He wins plenty of turnovers, makes a lot of tackles and is always there in support. Then he does the extra stuff as well. Savea would be amazing off the bench and if Cane gets injured, Savea will be selected and he will be amazing at that too.
     
    Savea has been one of the best forwards in Super Rugby this season.

    If I had to nail something where I rate Cane a long way ahead - and that is probably the defining characteristic of a test match 7, it'd be the decision making of when to over invest in a ruck. If you watch Pocock, Richie, George Smith etc. In tests they are annoying in almost all rucks but they only really invest themselves 100% for a split second then decide "nope I can't get that" and they back off so as to be available to hit the next one. And then 4 or 5 times a game they are 100% in & they get a steal & its vital. But the key is there are only 4 or 5 oportunities a game (in tests) to do that. And they pick them & are available to do it. Its like watching a vulture patiently waiting for that exact moment when the baby gazelle is just far enough away from its mum.   
     
    For me thats the art of a test match 7. I watch Ardie & he treats every ruck the same - which most forwards do & he often "dies" in a ruck he had zero chance of stealing. 
     
    Link work is less important for the ABs than it is for the northern sides as our whole team can link. Retallick or Franks link more than McCaw ever did. For an English 7 its vital as the other 7 forwards can't catch & pass for shit.
     
    I completely agree he'll be a superstar off the bench, but even if Cane gets injured I think he'll struggle to lock Todd out of the starting spot. Same way Vito has. And Masoe before him. And Barrett in the backs.



  • I didn't mean physically!
     
    Todd has already been in the frame and is more "AB ready" then Savea. They don't need to invest in him as much as in Savea. And one doesn't exclude the other. That's why I said why I prefer Todd for the June series, and Savea (also) for the EOYT.

    What did you mean then? Mentally? Savea has been in the frame aswell. They took him on the end of year tour when he was 20. Obviously they see him in their environment and he has more than proved he is mature enough for test footy ever since. I guess all will be revealed shortly and we can debate further when the time comes.



  • Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I take it that your probably happy for him to step up as you believe he has enough experience under his belt??
     
    From what I saw tonight Todd didn't really have enough impact on the game against the Highlanders to shout "pick me".
     
    Its fine playing blinders against weaker teams but you have to perform in the big games aswell. Todd didn't do that tonight.
     
    With that id say the two new loosies for the All Blacks this year would have to be Ardie and Elliot Dixon (that guy is so underrated its not funny)

    Savea definitely has put the work in to be considered for All Black's selection. Savea, I think, is clearly better than Cane was when he was first picked.
     
    So far the only criticisms of Savea in this thread are:
     
    he arrived 18 minutes late
    he isn't mature enough
    he makes poor decisions after making line breaks
    isn't good at sevens
    Those are hardly criticisms like 'he can't tackle' or 'can't control a game' which have been made against Barrett. I get it that Todd does a lot of those things too. I just think Ardie does the core job just as well as Todd and then has all this other extra stuff. A lot of people in this thread seem to be doubting Savea at all. Savea has played two more games than Todd this season but has carried the ball twice as much, made 100 extra metres, has beaten 19 defenders vs 5, has made 114 vs 89 tackles. Todd has made a higher % of tackles but both are still at plus 90%. Savea has conceded 7 turnovers to Todd's 4 but that is no surprise when Savea carries the ball twice as much.
     
    I also don't see the point in taking Savea to the EOYT. You aren't going to take 3 opensides to Europe. What would be the point then in picking Todd for Wales and the RC but dropping him regardless of form for the EOYT. Whoever is picked out of Todd and Savea should be given a fair opportunity in the jersey.



  • Also the selectors seem to pick players who are versatile. Savea can probably play every loose forward position and if worst comes to worst he wouldn't look out of place in the back line.
     
    You could say that Savea adds so much more on attack than Todd while doing the same as Todd on defense.



  • If I had to nail something where I rate Cane a long way ahead - and that is probably the defining characteristic of a test match 7, it'd be the decision making of when to over invest in a ruck. If you watch Pocock, Richie, George Smith etc. In tests they are annoying in almost all rucks but they only really invest themselves 100% for a split second then decide "nope I can't get that" and they back off so as to be available to hit the next one. And then 4 or 5 times a game they are 100% in & they get a steal & its vital. But the key is there are only 4 or 5 oportunities a game (in tests) to do that. And they pick them & are available to do it. Its like watching a vulture patiently waiting for that exact moment when the baby gazelle is just far enough away from its mum.   
     
    For me thats the art of a test match 7. I watch Ardie & he treats every ruck the same - which most forwards do & he often "dies" in a ruck he had zero chance of stealing. 
     
    Link work is less important for the ABs than it is for the northern sides as our whole team can link. Retallick or Franks link more than McCaw ever did. For an English 7 its vital as the other 7 forwards can't catch & pass for shit.
     
    I completely agree he'll be a superstar off the bench, but even if Cane gets injured I think he'll struggle to lock Todd out of the starting spot. Same way Vito has. And Masoe before him. And Barrett in the backs.

    According to FoxSports Super Coach, Savea has 6 pilfers and 3 turnovers forced this season. Todd has 0 pilfers and 2 turnovers forced. Cane has only 3 turnovers forced. Todd has conceded 4 penalties, Savea has conceded 9 and Cane 14. If Savea is bad at choosing when to commit to a ruck then it is somewhat curious that he does not concede a lot of penalties and wins a lot of turnovers. Stats aren't everything but here they seem to point in the exact opposite direction to what you are saying. The real interesting question would be a 'ruck arrivals' stat - is Savea over-committing and then failing to get to the next ruck? The fact that Savea has made the 3rd most tackles in the competition would seem to suggest otherwise. If Savea is over-committing then he must be impressively quick to get up and make so many more (as many in the case of Cane) tackles then players who aren't committing.
     
    I'll watch what you are saying but I can't see that I have ever noticed it as a flaw in Savea's game.



  • What did you mean then? Mentally? Savea has been in the frame aswell. They took him on the end of year tour when he was 20. Obviously they see him in their environment and he has more than proved he is mature enough for test footy ever since. I guess all will be revealed shortly and we can debate further when the time comes.

    Todd has 3 caps (two in 2013, one in 2015 v Samoa). Savea has been an apprentice without game time in 2014 & might have been in NZ Barbarians squad last year if he hadn't been injured.
     
    Some people on the Fern clearly have the inability to distinguish between "I would pick" and "Hansen and co. will pick". I clearly indicated that it would be MY preference to select Todd as Cane's back-up this June because I think he's more reliable to replace Cane in case Cane gets injured; I didn't say anywhere who I think Hansen will pick. He may pick Savea, or he may pick Todd; or he may pick both. I'm not a mind-reader and am not interested in guessing who they will pick. I just await the announcement for that.



  • Fair enough Stargazer. Though the stats show Savea is all over Todd and Todd has the luxury of having a All Black tight five in front of him. 
     
    If you put Ardie in a pack like the Crusaders he would flourish big time, which is where he has the upper hand over Todd. 
     
    He just offers so much more all around.
     
    Anyway I respect your backing of Todd and i'm sure whoever puts on that Black jersey in June will do wonders in a dominant All Blacks side.



  • It's going to be a tight race for the 2016 TSF Knight in shining armour award....



  • What did you mean then? Mentally? Savea has been in the frame aswell. They took him on the end of year tour when he was 20. Obviously they see him in their environment and he has more than proved he is mature enough for test footy ever since. I guess all will be revealed shortly and we can debate further when the time comes.

    My guess about the maturity comment might be based on what transpired in South Africa last week?



  • I don't think being 18 minutes late is going to ruin the stellar year he's had.



  • According to FoxSports Super Coach, Savea has 6 pilfers and 3 turnovers forced this season. Todd has 0 pilfers and 2 turnovers forced. Cane has only 3 turnovers forced. Todd has conceded 4 penalties, Savea has conceded 9 and Cane 14. If Savea is bad at choosing when to commit to a ruck then it is somewhat curious that he does not concede a lot of penalties and wins a lot of turnovers. Stats aren't everything but here they seem to point in the exact opposite direction to what you are saying. The real interesting question would be a 'ruck arrivals' stat - is Savea over-committing and then failing to get to the next ruck? The fact that Savea has made the 3rd most tackles in the competition would seem to suggest otherwise. If Savea is over-committing then he must be impressively quick to get up and make so many more (as many in the case of Cane) tackles then players who aren't committing.
    I'll watch what you are saying but I can't see that I have ever noticed it as a flaw in Savea's game.

    I'm not sure how they class a turnover, but Todd has had consiferably more turnovers than that, I remember 4 in the Reds game alone.
    Am I misreading something? Honest question



  • I'm not sure how they class a turnover, but Todd has had consiferably more turnovers than that, I remember 4 in the Reds game alone.
    Am I misreading something? Honest question

    No clue. Presumably if the measurement system shows Todd has less turnovers won then that would also be true for Savea and Cane.



  • These are the Vodacom stats for the 3 in competition for the openside spot. 
     
    Fu*ken table didn't work.



  • These are the Vodacom stats for the 3 in competition for the openside spot.
    Fu*ken table didn't work.

    Those turnover stats are much more believable.



  • No clue. Presumably if the measurement system shows Todd has less turnovers won then that would also be true for Savea and Cane.

    Or it could be completely inaccurate either way.



  • I don't think being 18 minutes late is going to ruin the stellar year he's had.it might

    It might if he turns up 18 minutes late for kickoff!



  • SANZAAR stats below, but these don't include turnovers won:



  • Those stats back up how fucking good Savea will be coming off the bench in the final 20 of a test.



  • The Vodacom stats have turnovers as
     
    Cane     6
    Todd     12
    Savea   16


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