Crusaders v Waratahs
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="581189" data-time="1463801160"><p>
I played in a game where a teammate was penalised for knocking the ball backwards to stop a try. So seems a relevant discussion to me</p></blockquote>
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What antipodean said.<br><br>
That's one thing that always got me about this situation: the terminology.<br><br>
A "deliberate knock DOWN" is NOT an offence. In knocking the ball DOWN you have done nothing wrong. The ball did not go forward. A "deliberate knock FORWARD" is.<br><br>
That instance Mariner quotes is a classic result of stupid commentators and stupid viewers. I've played in games where passes have been knocked down but backwards and players have whinged about deliberate knock down. Thankfully the refs were somewhat more competent.<br><br>
Antipodean: i hope you weren't penalised in the intance you quote as again there was no deliberate throwing the ball into touch it was merely unfortunate.<br><br>
As Crucial pounts out normal play within the laws of the game - which includes propelling the ball backwards - is all aimed at stopping the opposition scoring. It's not cynical as it's not offending. <br><br>
Re "deliberate knock on": the first time I ever saw that was on tele of an All Blacks mud week tour match in Britain in 78 or 79. Lineout right on the AB line (no moving it out 5m in those days). AB jumper just reaches out and smacks the thing forward. Bang penalised. I was confused (I was 10 or so) as i thought a knock on was a scrum. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="barbarian" data-cid="581194" data-time="1463802933"><p>Yeah but so does kicking it into touch. If a grubber is put into the ingoal area, you're fine to slide in feet first and kick it dead, but if you reach out and bat it dead then it's likely a PT. I just don't understand such wildly different punishments for two very similar actions with the exact same effect on the game.</p></blockquote>
Because you can kick directly or indirectly into touch. It's a fundamental component of the game. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gunner" data-cid="581196" data-time="1463803971"><p>
No validity? Who makes you the fucking king and executioner of what a valid question or discussion is?<br><br>
Eat a fat one.</p></blockquote>
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He's been on the fern 12 years he's the oracle on everything -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="581205" data-time="1463805470">
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<p>Because you can kick directly or indirectly into touch. It's a fundamental component of the game.</p>
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<p>plenty of fundamental components that seem silly...</p>
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<p>If you dont contest a lineout, why should it matter if it isnt straight? </p>
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<p>The one last night that called back the try when Todd didnt retreat outside the 10, he had zero impact on the game, but he was correctly called for the rule, similarly the not retreating rule, the kick can be down the right, a prop meandering forward 50m away on the left wing is breaking the rules.</p>
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<p>If people stop asking questions (however dumb you might think they are) and discussing things then this place wil be pretty quiet.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="581207" data-time="1463806437"><p>
If you dont contest a lineout, why should it matter if it isnt straight?<br>
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It's in the rules that the throw must be straight, that's why.<br><br>
Man you must be as stupid as stupid gets, you ignoramus.<br><br>
And how dare you question the laws of rugby, I hear by sentence you to death by stoning.<br><br>
Guards, take this man away. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="581207" data-time="1463806437"><p>plenty of fundamental components that seem silly...<br><br>
If you dont contest a lineout, why should it matter if it isnt straight? <br><br>
The one last night that called back the try when Todd didnt retreat outside the 10, he had zero impact on the game, but he was correctly called for the rule, similarly the not retreating rule, the kick can be down the right, a prop meandering forward 50m away on the left wing is breaking the rules.<br><br>
If people stop asking questions (however dumb you might think they are) and discussing things then this place wil be pretty quiet.</p></blockquote>
It removes ambiguity. You shouldn't be able to remain in a position to play tge ball if you're off-side -
<p>similarly, the accidental off-side rule, most of the time it has zero impact on the opposition players getting to the ball carrier, still called.</p>
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<p>again, I know these are the rules, doesnt mean I have to like them, I abided by them when I played and I teach my son the rules as they are written too.</p>
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<p>discussion is a fundamental component to forums</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="581213" data-time="1463807716">
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<p>similarly, the accidental off-side rule, most of the time it has zero impact on the opposition players getting to the ball carrier, still called.</p>
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<p>Actually, the Laws of Rugby say that should be play on:</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="581207" data-time="1463806437"><p>
If people stop asking questions (however dumb you might think they are) and discussing things then this place wil be pretty quiet.</p></blockquote>
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True but if you make a stupid comment you can fairly expect to be shot down for it as well. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="581218" data-time="1463809446">
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<p>True but if you make a stupid comment you can fairly expect to be shot down for it as well.</p>
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<p>goes without saying, and this usually generates more discussion,and some hyperbole.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gunner" data-cid="581196" data-time="1463803971">
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<p>I wasn't whining one little bit.<br><br>
I couldn't give a fuck if that particular try was scored or not, it was merely an observation about one tiny tiny part of the game of rugby, which rarely ever happens.<br><br>
No validity? Who makes you the fucking king and executioner of what a valid question or discussion is?<br><br>
Eat a fat one.</p>
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<p>Sorry Gunner, I didn't intend for you to feel a victim of some rather infantile and pretty ineffectual words. (I mean fuck man, you're offended by a clown post with the words "sookie la la" in it - have some self respect and just ignore me! )</p>
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<p>Seriously, I was just writing shit on a forum, same as everyone else. No need to go all wah wah wah  though, I mean it is a dumb question to ask if a knock back should be penalisable as you now know ;)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="581205" data-time="1463805470">
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<p>Because you can kick directly or indirectly into touch. It's a fundamental component of the game.</p>
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<p>Yes and so is passing the ball. But while you can kick the ball out, you cannot pass the ball out. I've never heard a logical explanation as to why that is.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="barbarian" data-cid="581432" data-time="1463830558">
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<p>Yes and so is passing the ball. But while you can kick the ball out, you cannot pass the ball out. I've never heard a logical explanation as to why that is.</p>
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<p>The kicking has been to gain territory which means although you'd normally kick forward, you're permitted to kick in any direction. Passing on the other hand has to be done backwards and hence because you can't pass gaining territory without actually running forward, passing into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line negates a contest.</p> -
<p>Watched the start of the game from the hotel and then was due out for a beer with a mate. Was around the time the cross-kick try was disallowed, and I thought it was about to be 21-nil with a whole lot more coming. Was surprised to later learn the Saders hadn't scored 50.</p>
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<p>Just shit defence for 15-20 minutes from the Tahs. Really hesitant stuff. Damn shame or they could have actually gotten closer, particularly with some of the enterprise show late in the game.</p>
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<p>Both teams should get points for throwing it around in those conditions, but really, there aren't many Aussie teams that are going to play well in the wet.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="581486" data-time="1463838582">
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<p>The kicking has been to gain territory which means although you'd normally kick forward, you're permitted to kick in any direction. Passing on the other hand has to be done backwards and hence because you can't pass gaining territory without actually running forward, passing into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line negates a contest.</p>
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<p>Never really thought about it, but that is easily the best explanation why.</p> -
<p>I've always viewed the rule that with the exception of charge downs, hands may only be used to catch and hold the ball.</p>
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<p>I.e - you cannot use your hands to bat, punch, push the ball, you can only use it to catch and pass. Â If you are not in a position to catch the ball, and can only punch it down or block a pass etc, then you shouldn't be able to go for it.</p>
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<p>To give a bit more context if you are the defender in a 2 on 1 situation, and you manage to get between the ball, but the pass is too quick for you to catch it - so you reach out to essentially just block the pass, why is it a penalty if it goes forward (and if attacking the line, then probably a penalty try and YC), but absolutely no sanction if it goes backward?</p>
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<p>If you are making NO attempt to catch the ball, then the sanction should be the same.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="582114" data-time="1464053059"><p>
I've always viewed the rule that with the exception of charge downs, hands may only be used to catch and hold the ball.<br><br>
I.e - you cannot use your hands to bat, punch, push the ball, you can only use it to catch and pass. If you are not in a position to catch the ball, and can only punch it down or block a pass etc, then you shouldn't be able to go for it.<br><br>
To give a bit more context if you are the defender in a 2 on 1 situation, and you manage to get between the ball, but the pass is too quick for you to catch it - so you reach out to essentially just block the pass, why is it a penalty if it goes forward (and if attacking the line, then probably a penalty try and YC), but absolutely no sanction if it goes backward?<br><br>
If you are making NO attempt to catch the ball, then the sanction should be the same.</p></blockquote>
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Don't agree. <br><br>
A flick on is not a catch and pass but extremely skillful. <br><br>
A tap back from a lineout: should Whitelock have been penalised in the Semi for his steal?<br><br>
Tamanivalu's flick up on the weekend was extremely skillful.<br><br>
The reason you are penalised for deliberately knocking the ball forward is the same reason a scrum is set if you accidently propell the ball forward. The laws of the game say you can't propell it forward. Thus if you do it deliberately you are to be penalised. The laws of the game say you may propell the ball backwards. <br><br>
the interpretation of "reaching out to block the pass and the ball goes forward" is that you are deliberately propelling it forward. Whether you are or not. Sometimes that's a harsh call and there is genuine intent to catch it (or at the very least not propell it forward). But that's the interpretation. <br><br>
Makes sense and I'm not sure why this us even a thing. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="582124" data-time="1464054419">
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<p>Don't agree.<br><br>
A flick on is not a catch and pass but extremely skillful.<br><br>
A tap back from a lineout: should Whitelock have been penalised in the Semi for his steal?<br><br>
Tamanivalu's flick up on the weekend was extremely skillful.<br><br>
The reason you are penalised for deliberately knocking the ball forward is the same reason a scrum is set if you accidently propell the ball forward. The laws of the game say you can't propell it forward. Thus if you do it deliberately you are to be penalised. The laws of the game say you may propell the ball backwards.<br><br>
the interpretation of "reaching out to block the pass and the ball goes forward" is that you are deliberately propelling it forward. Whether you are or not. Sometimes that's a harsh call and there is genuine intent to catch it (or at the very least not propell it forward). But that's the interpretation.<br><br>
Makes sense and I'm not sure why this us even a thing.</p>
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<p>Well yes, it's not cut and dry and you make good points as to why.</p>
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<p>Regardless, a hand stuck out in the way of a pass to score a try seems to have completely different outcomes depending on the luck of the bounce. Â I'm just not sure that rule is right.</p> -
<p>Bloody hell you guys get caught up on the trival "can you flick/tap the ball backwards" happens every game of course you can. There is a big difference between forwards and backwards ~ you can pass the ball backwards but not forwards ~ you can tap the ball ball backwards but not forwards. I'm assuming that a player would be yellow carded for deliberating passing the ball forward  to prevent a try (if you were dumb enough to do it ~ I'm picking one of the blues back three will do it in the next few weeks) same as knocking(tapping) the ball forward to prevent a try.</p>
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<p>Hell should Franks be penalised for his amazing bit of skill to header a ball <strong>backwards </strong>straight into the arms of Dagg for the clearance. I bet Messi couldn't do that with an oval ball.</p>