Missing EgyptAir plane - Paris to Cairo



  •  
    Airline EgyptAir is reporting a plane heading to Cairo from Paris has disappeared. Details remain sketchy.
    3:37pm: CNN correspondent Mary Schiavo said the flight was not on a high air traffic flight path at the time. There did not appear to have been severe weather in the area, and the route did not go over conflict areas.
    3:20pm: The plane was at 37,000 ft and disappeared 16km within Egyptian airspace.
    "An informed source at EGYPTAIR stated that Flight no MS804,which departed Paris at 23:09 (CEST), heading to Cairo has disappeared from radar," the airline has tweeted.
     
     
    Search and rescue teams are being assembled.
    EgyptAir's website has crashed since the news broke.
    The flight is carrying 59 passengers and 10 crew members
    The flight time is normally around 3 hours and 45 minutes - the plane departed Paris around six hours ago.



  • Terrorist attack? France is pretty high on the terrorism list at the moment and flights into and out of Egypt have also been targeted. 
     
    If not a terrorist attack, the whole 'plane falling out of midair' thing puts the shits up me. I'm not scared of flying, but I always hate the thought that at any time, any plane I'm on could just drop out of the sky through some unfortunate sequence of events (weather, mechanical failure etc) with no real discrimination.



  • 4:23pm: Ehab Mohy el-Deen, head of Egypt's air navigation authority said Greek air traffic controllers reached out to say they had lost contact with the plane.
    "They did not radio for help or lose altitude. They just vanished."
    4:18pm: Ahmed Abdel, the vice-chairman of EgyptAir has told CNN there was no distress call from the plane.
    "Search and rescue has been dispatched and are now at the scene... Daylight has just broken around an hour ago, so we should get some information within the next hour."
    4:16pm: Rescue efforts in Egypt are being coordinated with the Greek authorities.

    4:12pm: CNN is reporting weather conditions were fine when the plane went missing.
    4:07pm: Although the flight was in Egyptian airspace and ten minutes from landing, it may not have been overland - Egyptian airspace extends far into the Mediterranean sea.
    4:04pm: The flight was in the air for 3 hours and 40 minutes before it disappeared from radar. The flight time to Cairo is normally 4 hours and 30 minutes - the flight left Paris roughly six hours ago.
    3:53pm: Egypt's civil aviation ministry has confirmed they have search and rescue teams looking for the plane.



  • Surface to air missile?  Isn't that what the US were searching to try and locate and stop from getting into the wild after Libya collapsed?



  • maybe I watch too many movies, but wouldn't they (Egypt Air) have a radar alert for something like that and then the Pilot should have a chance to notify Air Traffic Control?



  • maybe I watch too many movies, but wouldn't they (Egypt Air) have a radar alert for something like that and then the Pilot should have a chance to notify Air Traffic Control?

    I don't think a commercial plane could detect a launch.  Normally it comes out after when government radar data comes out showing a launch track?  Isn't that wht happened over Ukraine, data from government radar?



  • 4:23pm: Ehab Mohy el-Deen, head of Egypt's air navigation authority said Greek air traffic controllers reached out to say they had lost contact with the plane.
    "They did not radio for help or lose altitude. They just vanished."
    4:18pm: Ahmed Abdel, the vice-chairman of EgyptAir has told CNN there was no distress call from the plane.

    That is NEVER good. But surely if the plane exploded someone would have seen/heard it?



  • http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/may/19/egyptair-plane-cairo-paris-live-updates
     
    EgyptAir says that the plane’s emergency devices (possibly an emergency locator transmitter or beacon) sent a distress signal that was received at 4.26am, some two hours after the previously stated last radar contact.



  • Just once I would like one of these stories to end with a headline
    "Lost plane found! Everything fine! Pilot just accidentally bumped a switch"



  • http://avherald.com/h?article=4987fb09&opt=0
    A couple of maps on that link.



  • Just once I would like one of these stories to end with a headline
    "Lost plane found! Everything fine! Pilot just accidentally bumped a switch"

    A very small version of that: http://avherald.com/h?article=497af81c&opt=0 (EDIT - right link this time!)
    'I thought you were checking the radio?' 🙂



  • Terrorist attack? France is pretty high on the terrorism list at the moment and flights into and out of Egypt have also been targeted. 
     
    If not a terrorist attack, the whole 'plane falling out of midair' thing puts the shits up me. I'm not scared of flying, but I always hate the thought that at any time, any plane I'm on could just drop out of the sky through some unfortunate sequence of events (weather, mechanical failure etc) with no real discrimination.

    and I thought cops were tough :fishing:  :whistle:
     
    I heard an aviation expert on the radio say that from how it moved in the radar it has definitely exploded somewhere.



  • surely if it was  terrorist act, it'd be claimed already?
     
    So more likely a lone wolf fighting for the cause?



  • Sucks how we're already getting the 'wreckage found' 'oh crap, no we haven't' announcements. And differences from the airline and the authorities. Just puts the families through more hell.
     
    Surely the Malaysian Airlines debacle was enough for eternity.



  • yeah we were discussing that this morning - lessons learnt from the MH370 debacle - none!



  • Yep, that would seriously fuck with the families. I know they are making an effort to keep everyone as up to date as possible but accuracy of information has to be paramount.



  • The worst thing for the families is that they would be hearing everything through the media and have to go through all that speculation.



  • Sucks how we're already getting the 'wreckage found' 'oh crap, no we haven't' announcements. And differences from the airline and the authorities. Just puts the families through more hell.
     
    Surely the Malaysian Airlines debacle was enough for eternity.

    The media's thirst for any information, correct or not must make things really difficult.  But you would like to think the airline and the authorities could get on the page.  There is nowhere to hide so they might as well lay what they know out there



  • And even if the plane has 'exploded', there are a number of potential causes of that. Media experts, officials, etc jumping to the terrorism conclusion are really making giant guesses until the wreckage itself is found and examined.



  • The fact they haven't found it as yet I guess means its at the bottom of the ocean.
     
    I still find the fact they can't find planes almost immediately very surprising.  I have technology on my mobile phone that if somebody nicks it, I can pinpoint it to within a metre. Why isn't the same available with aviation?



  • The fact they haven't found it as yet I guess means its at the bottom of the ocean.
     
    I still find the fact they can't find planes almost immediately very surprising.  I have technology on my mobile phone that if somebody nicks it, I can pinpoint it to within a metre. Why isn't the same available with aviation?

    I read some article about this, IIRC it comes down to airlines not wanting to spend the money on up to date GPS technology for their planes



  • reckon these dudes should go to the Airlines with a business case...
     
    I mean their webpage says:

    Lost it? Find it.
    

    Locate anything in seconds using your iPhone or Android
     
    https://buy.thetrackr.co/gu/special-offers/06/?utm_source=1596&utm_medium=8266b711-7d05-4f33-bca3-fe8c9c8b4a32&utm_term=28477659&utm_content=321&utm_campaign=GU&aff_id=1596&camp_id=10141&clk_id=28477659&sub_id=8266b711-7d05-4f33-bca3-fe8c9c8b4a32



  • I read some article about this, IIRC it comes down to airlines not wanting to spend the money on up to date GPS technology for their planes

    Fair enough too. It would cost a fortune to do an entire fleet.



  • Fair enough too. It would cost a fortune to do an entire fleet.

    I fyou have 50 planes, it's 50 second hand iphones of anythying less than 2 years old, plus a roll of duct tape.
     
    So 50 x $300, = $15,000 + $3.99 from Mitre 10.
     
    Or, the cost of having one seat empty in business class from Sydney - London return



  • Fair enough too. It would cost a fortune to do an entire fleet.

    Not as costly as you think, according to the Washington Post

    Malaysia Airlines didn’t buy computer upgrade that could have given data on missing flight

    By Ashley Halsey III and Scott Higham
     
    March 19, 2014 
    A simple computer upgrade that Malaysia Airlines decided not to purchase would have provided critical information to help find the airliner that disappeared 12 days ago.
    The upgrade, which wholesales for about $10 per flight, would have provided investigators with the direction, speed and altitude of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 even after other communications from the plane went dark, said a satellite industry official familiar with the equipment.
    Data from a similar computer upgrade allowed investigators in the crash of an Air France jetliner in 2009 to quickly narrow their search area to a radius of about 40 miles in the Atlantic Ocean, and in five days, they found floating evidence of the crash.
    The ocean search for the missing Malaysian flight now covers a vast expanse of water, about 2.24 million square nautical miles of the Indian Ocean from the west coast of Malaysia to the waters off Perth, Australia.
    “We’ve got to hope for a break,” said Dave Gallo, who directed the search by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution that found the Air France plane. “Someone’s got to find on the surface some bit of that plane floating.”

    Mystery of Malaysian airliner

    The story of the missing Malaysian plane, with 239 passengers and crew members on board, has drawn the public into the arcane nuances of communications between aircraft and ground bases.
    The new information indicates that had the upgrade for a system called Swift been installed, it would have continued to send flight data by satellite even after signals from the plane’s transponder and Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) went dead.
    Investigators say they think those two systems were shut down by a pilot or hijackers in the cockpit before the plane flew on for seven more hours.
    The satellite industry official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the investigation, likened the Swift system to a cellphone that sends data to a satellite. He described ACARS as akin to an app for a mobile phone.

    Had the Swift system been upgraded to include the full package of applications, it could have sent information on engine performance, fuel consumption, speed, altitude and direction, regardless of whether the transponder and ACARS were working, he said.
    “When ACARS is turned off, Swift continues on,” he said. “If you configure Swift to track engine data, that data will be streamed off the plane. It continues to be powered up while the aircraft is powered up.”
    Many major airlines use the full package of Swift options. The detail it provides is mandated under international aviation guidelines for airlines that ply the busy North Atlantic corridor between the United States and Europe. There are no such requirements elsewhere in the world, the industry official said.
     
    In addition to sending information to the airline, Swift also can be programmed to send data to the manufacturer — usually Boeing or Airbus — and the engine maker — usually Rolls-Royce or Pratt & Whitney.
    “It’s a choice of what you do with your aircraft,” the satellite industry official said. “When you get your plane from Boeing, you can get an engine management app, a route management app, or you might decide that you want the bare minimum. There isn’t a mandated requirement.”
    The application wholesales for about $10 per flight, but airlines pay a higher retail fee. Some airlines have decided they do not want to pay the higher cost for an information stream that they deem unnecessary except under the most extreme circumstances.
    "The need for SWIFT has never been mandated and all our aircraft have what is called the Aero H SATCOM communications systems,” Malaysia Airlines said in a statement. “This installation is sufficient to meet all of MAS’s operational requirements and at the same time meets all international requirements that enable us to fly international airways.”
     â€œThe statement that this $10 per flight upgrade will provide direction, speed and altitude in the event that the communications were deliberately shutoff from the aircraft is untrue,” the airline stated.

    Asked why an airline might choose not to buy an application that sells for a relatively modest cost, the official said: “Every pound on an aircraft is fuel consumed. As in all matters, it always comes down to cost.”
    Rather than stream those data, he said, some airlines choose to download it onto a USB stick once the plane lands.
    Because Malaysia Airlines went with the cheaper option, he said, “there was not an awful lot that was captured.”
    With the transponder and ACARS not operating, the satellite tried to contact the missing flight hourly.
    He said the satellite “sends out an automated ping to say, ‘Are you there?’ and the machine-to-machine response is, ‘Yes, I am.’ ”
    That “yes, I am” response is how investigators determined that the plane flew on for several hours.
    “On the Air France flight, they used the satellite network to bring the [additional] information off and narrow the search,” he said.
    With all the on-board systems working — the transponder, ACARS and Swift with all available applications — the search for Air France 447 narrowed quickly.
    “We had a last-known position, and we knew that after the last-known position there were four bursts of ACARS transmissions, and then they stopped abruptly,” Gallo said. “So the decision was made that the plane was down four minutes after the initial event.”
    Once debris was found, investigators had to calculate how far it had drifted in the five days since the plane crash.
    “We thought five days was a long time for that tracking,” Gallo said, reflecting on the number of days since the Malaysian flight disappeared.

    world

    It took almost two years — from June 2009 to May 2011 — before the wreckage of the Air France flight was found on a plateau more than 11,000 feet deep in the Atlantic off the coast of Brazil. With no hint of where the Malaysian plane might have gone down, Gallo said that perhaps the only hope it will be found rests on the discovery of some floating debris.
    “It’s a big chunk of the Indian Ocean, almost the size of the North Atlantic,” Gallo said. “If [the plane] is in the ocean, it can range from the flat sediments of the Bay of Bengal, two miles-plus deep, and the further south you get, west of Perth is one of the most in­cred­ibly complicated underwater terrains on the planet.”

    Although there are no industry-wide standards for aviation, in the maritime industry all ships must carry an advanced tracking system known as the Long Range Information and Tracking system, which enables satellites to follow the movements of vessels as they traverse the globe. If a ship goes down, rescue crews will know which area to concentrate their search.
    “The U.S. Coast Guard came to us and we introduced the system. There really wasn’t anything before that,” said Andrew Winbow, director of the safety division for the International Maritime Organization in London.
     
     
    Julie Tate, Alice Crites and Jessica Schulberg contributed to this report.



  • Who does have it at $10 per flight?
     
    I didn't read teh article but does that include set up costs?



  • Just read that retail cost to Airlines higher and I do agree that as a CE, I wouldn't spend that type of money on a "after the fact" cost. 
     
    If it was a prevention cost, then sure.



  • I guess up until MH370, planes going 'missing' wasn't really a major issue....



  • Interesting that it took them 2 years to find the Air France one, with that system running, after locating the debris field in 5 days.  It means the MH one will only be found by accident now



  • I suppose when we lose our phone we can locate it to within a metre because it hasn't disintegrated into 677346756346536948 pieces in the sea - it always surprises me how hard it is to find a plane, till comparing a 777 (or A320) in this case to the ocean. Then that great big plane seems bloody small...
    Just reflecting on how long it took them to find something as big as the Titanic or the Bismarck in a relatively small known area of ocean too.



  • I suppose when we lose our phone we can locate it to within a metre because it hasn't disintegrated into 677346756346536948 pieces in the sea - it always surprises me how hard it is to find a plane, till comparing a 777 (or A320) in this case to the ocean. Then that great big plane seems bloody small...
    Just reflecting on how long it took them to find something as big as the Titanic or the Bismarck in a relatively small known area of ocean too.

    There is definitely a gap between perception & reality here.  Maybe the technology which we have available simply isn't as good as what we think it is.
     
    Remember that movie enemy of the state?  If that technology was even close to available, then all these planes would be found within an hour of disappearance.



  • they probably have to turn them off during take off anyway, so would need to remember to turn them back on!



  • There is definitely a gap between perception & reality here.  Maybe the technology which we have available simply isn't as good as what we think it is.
     
    Remember that movie enemy of the state?  If that technology was even close to available, then all these planes would be found within an hour of disappearance.

    No the technology exists alright..... it is just hard to make that technology work after being exposed to a high velocity explosion.. but when they manage that.. it is hard to make it indestructible and buoyant. So I am sure the flight data is all safe and sound..... at the bottom of the Med.
     
    As soon as you figure out how to make your iPhone explosion proof and buoyant... patent that bastard!



  • Why would anyone bother - Apple are going to come out very shortly with something slightly smaller, or bigger or a slightly different shape or colour, and it's going to be just amazing and everyone's just going to have to have one and, and, and



  • Well if the black box is strong enough to withstand all that, why can't it have a transmitting device in it ...  I guess thats my point.
     
    Duct tape an iphone to the inside of it.  Job done.



  • Well if the black box is strong enough to withstand all that, why can't it have a transmitting device in it ...  I guess thats my point.
     
    Duct tape an iphone to the inside of it.  Job done.

    It does have a transmitting device.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_locator_beacon
     
     
    However I am sure your plan would work though, if there were plenty of cell phone towers in the middle of the ocean.... and below it.



  • Well if the black box is strong enough to withstand all that, why can't it have a transmitting device in it ...  I guess thats my point.
     
    Duct tape an iphone to the inside of it.  Job done.

    If the black box is that strong, they should build the plane out of it...



  • they should really build loads of stuff out of it, cars, houses etc.



  • It does have a transmitting device.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_locator_beacon
    However I am sure your plan would work though, if there were plenty of cell phone towers in the middle of the ocean.... and below it.
    GPS still works as it uses satellite not a cell phone tower. Like MR I am surprised they can't use GPS to locate planes, but I'm sure smarter people then myself could explain.



  • GPS still works as it uses satellite not a cell phone tower. Like MR I am surprised they can't use GPS to locate planes, but I'm sure smarter people then myself could explain.

    GPS requires line of sight. Hard from the bottom of the ocean. Hence my comment about buoyancy or cell towers under the ocean...


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