Banking Nonsense



  • Some help required from the fern intelligentsia.
     
    So I've been living in a 2nd or 3rd world country for most of my adult life and now face a lengthy stint in the lucky country (Oz for those that don't know). By the way I'm liking heaps about being here. Asia is such a great place to learn patience and not dwell on being self entitled or judgemental to others that I'm cruising around here in some zen like spiritual state listening to lucky people whine about inconsequentials and brushing off an incredibly judgemental and vapid terrestrial TV and news shows.
     
    But I had a banking encounter that staggered me and most likely won't even raise an eyebrow to you other "westerners"
     
    In Thailand when I internet transfer money from my bank account (the bank is huge and is the equivalent to ANZ, BNZ, NAB, National, Commonwealth etc) to my wife's bank account of the same bank the transfer is free and instantaneous - I press send and the missus's phone sms beeps about 2 seconds later.
     
    When transferring from one Thai bank to another there is an option of paying 1 dollar for a real time transfer, or you save a dollar and the transfer takes a day or two.
     
    So it blew my mind when me mum used her ANZ account to put some cash in my ANZ account (same branch actually) and the funds weren't available. It's Queens birthday over here. 
     
    I rang the fluffybunnies at ANZ to get a handle on how the process works, and Sam told me the shit that you guys already know about a day or so and nothing over the weekend or public hols
     
    I was flaberghasted (naive eh?)
     
    I said to Sam, "so you're telling me that the computer responsible for transferring money doesn't work on weekends or public holidays. I mean please reassure me Sam that you don't have humans carting notes from mum's bank account to mine"
     
     
    So fellas, I can't win this one but I pose a couple of questions:
     
    Do all banks take days to transfer money from one of THEIR accounts to another of THEIR accounts?
     
    Is there no instantaneous transfer between accounts at the same bank and even branch? - I get it that overseas inter bank transfers have delays and there is a forex industry and companies that address this
     
    Why do people put up with this shit?  no release of funds over a weekend - It's a fucking computer programme!! What's so fucken sacred about a weekend - every day same in asia
     
    Is it true that the banks make a quid over this delay? If so how, actually?
     
    You westerners have lazy self entitled computers that refuse to work nights, overtime, and weekends huh?
     
     
    please set me right if I've missed a vital essential part of life in all this
     
    ta  🙂



  • Kiwibank is instantaneous to other Kiwibank accounts all the time.



  • It is instant between ANZ accounts in NZ as well.



  • Kiwibank is instantaneous to other Kiwibank accounts all the time.

    Cheers Hooroo
     
    Unfortunately I'm in the lucky country, not the choice bro country.
     
    Dumb old me thought that should be the way for all banks just like it is in less sophisticated and backward and dumber countries...go figure 😉



  • It is instant between ANZ accounts in NZ as well.

    Thanks Baron, just an Aussie thing perhaps??



  • Siam  - ANZ is notorious for their processing of transfers.
     
    Basically, before the technology was available for "real time" transfers and bank balance updates all banks invested heavily in batch processing. This means all of the transfers and payments for the day get put into one file, adding up to the many millions of dollars, and get paid in an overnight batch run.
     
    Changing the technology to do it "real time" is hugely expensive, and ANZ quite simply have not made the investment.
     
    BNZ and Westpac both do "intra-day" processing, meaning a transfer between those banks will happen in 1 - 2 hours. Not perfect but a step in the right direction. As BSG says all banks in NZ do real-time transfers so long as it is between their own accounts - I am suprised that ANZ Australia don't already do that.
     
    So in summary, all banks have much room for improvement in this space but the investment in the technology is very big. ANZ is dragging their heals the most in this regard.



  • Siam  - ANZ is notorious for their processing of transfers.
     
    Basically, before the technology was available for "real time" transfers and bank balance updates all banks invested heavily in batch processing. This means all of the transfers and payments for the day get put into one file, adding up to the many millions of dollars, and get paid in an overnight batch run.
     
    Changing the technology to do it "real time" is hugely expensive, and ANZ quite simply have not made the investment.
     
    BNZ and Westpac both do "intra-day" processing, meaning a transfer between those banks will happen in 1 - 2 hours. Not perfect but a step in the right direction. As BSG says all banks in NZ do real-time transfers so long as it is between their own accounts - I am suprised that ANZ Australia don't already do that.
     
    So in summary, all banks have much room for improvement in this space but the investment in the technology is very big. ANZ is dragging their heals the most in this regard.

    Brilliant, thanks NQ



  • Yep, that's about right. If I transfer between my own accounts, its instantaneous, but to anyone else is overnight.
     
    The banks say it is so they can check and confirm details. I believe there are also some checks they need to make for our anti-terror laws.
     
    Some say they are floating those funds to skim interest, but I find that hard to believe as someone would have called them on it by now.
     
    The Reserve Bank is apparently working on getting everyone to instantaneous transfers (domestic institutions) by the end of this year. Don't hold your breath.
     
    I actually wrote the batch funds transfer system for a bank I was working for, to use domestic bank accounts (they never had it before because they were using forex products). It is quite simple, really, and there is no reason the banks couldn't process files instantly. They just choose not to develop the capability.
     
    The systems we're using are decades old and as NQ says: ain't broke, don't spend money fixing it. That's why our banks post multi-billions in profit, because they like it this way.



  • Yep, that's about right. If I transfer between my own accounts, its instantaneous, but to anyone else is overnight.
     
    The banks say it is so they can check and confirm details. I believe there are also some checks they need to make for our anti-terror laws.
     
    Some say they are floating those funds to skim interest, but I find that hard to believe as someone would have called them on it by now.
     
    The Reserve Bank is apparently working on getting everyone to instantaneous transfers (domestic institutions) by the end of this year. Don't hold your breath.
     
    I actually wrote the batch funds transfer system for a bank I was working for, to use domestic bank accounts (they never had it before because they were using forex products). It is quite simple, really, and there is no reason the banks couldn't process files instantly. They just choose not to develop the capability.
     
    The systems we're using are decades old and as NQ says: ain't broke, don't spend money fixing it. That's why our banks post multi-billions in profit, because they like it this way.

    Thanks Nick
     
    How come the 2 day delay over weekends or longer for a public holiday? Is the checks and confirmation process by humans?



  • The backwardness of the lucky country around banking does my head in sometimes.
     
    I'm with CommBank and yep, it takes a couple of days to clear Commbank to Commbank transactions. God knows how long it takes to transfer to other banks. What is worse is that they give you two balances in your bank account, your balance and then your balance (what you actually have access to) - so you'll see the transaction, you just can't get at the cash.
     
    Yep, that's about right. If I transfer between my own accounts, its instantaneous,

    Sheesh, this should just be a given and not a bank feature.
     
    The lack of Eftpos/charging for Eftpos is the most annoying thing I find about Oz though, I'm always having to remember to have cash on me - and that includes those stupidly gigantic 50c pieces. I spent a few weeks in NZ just before Easter and didn't use cash once.



  • Yep, that's about right. If I transfer between my own accounts, its instantaneous, but to anyone else is overnight.
     
    The banks say it is so they can check and confirm details. I believe there are also some checks they need to make for our anti-terror laws.
     
    Some say they are floating those funds to skim interest, but I find that hard to believe as someone would have called them on it by now.
     
    The Reserve Bank is apparently working on getting everyone to instantaneous transfers (domestic institutions) by the end of this year. Don't hold your breath.
     
    I actually wrote the batch funds transfer system for a bank I was working for, to use domestic bank accounts (they never had it before because they were using forex products). It is quite simple, really, and there is no reason the banks couldn't process files instantly. They just choose not to develop the capability.
     
    The systems we're using are decades old and as NQ says: ain't broke, don't spend money fixing it. That's why our banks post multi-billions in profit, because they like it this way.

    Yep. The "intra-day" stuff that BNZ and Westpac do isn't actually an investment in new technology, it's just faking it by running batch processing jobs during the day. They take on some risk by doing this, as they update the balance before the funds are actually approved, so I think they only do it up to a certain $ limit.
     
    They are happy to take on that risk if it's between their own accounts though (as it's all within their own environment).



  • Thanks Nick
     
    How come the 2 day delay over weekends or longer for a public holiday? Is the checks and confirmation process by humans?

    All I know is that the banks don't do batch processing on Saturday and Sunday nights. I don't actually know the reason behind this - probably gives them a chance to do scheduled maintenance etc on their systems.



  • I worked for a small direct debit company from 2000-2005 and we processed files manually - that was the reason we didn't debit (customers) or credit (clients) on weekends. Because we had checks and balances that needed human eyes for a small company, and sometimes had to run it a tad late to ensure we picked up any last-minute requests.
     
    It was worse with Amex and Diners: 20 records per page, with disclaimers top and bottom, that had to be signed and FAXED to their respective processing houses.
     
    You'll note most direct debit products don't work on weekends or public holidays, because they want someone to actually push the button a lot of times. Gives them someone ("computer error" my arse) to blame.



  • commbank have that thing through the app where you can transfer to another person's commbank account instantly by tapping your phones together, it's awesome. 
     
     
    but, i agree, in general, banks are fluffybunnies.



  • Australia was one of the very first in the world to have what's known as Real-Time Gross Settlement of any kind, back in the 1990s. Australian banks net their obligations to each other at the end of each business day and settle them by moving funds at 9am each morning. So all the ANZ count up all the money they owe to accounts held with Westpac and deduct receipts due to them from Westpac (e.g. for settlement of securities trades) and move the difference through a batch process called (from memory) RITS. The weekend delay is simply because Friday's payments are moved on Monday morning.
     
    Not moving the funds between accounts on the same day (or even instantaneously) is a choice that your bank is making. The reason they don't do it is because there is substantial income to be made in keeping it "idle" for as long as possible. All the credit balances can be invested intra-day, or used to fund their positions with the central bank that they might otherwise have to borrow (at an actual cost) to cover. There's no reason for clients to put up with it but be warned, if they change the way they do things they'll probably pass the costs involved back onto you the customer through increased margins or ( as in the UK) actual operating fees for current accounts.



  • Winger may need to confirm that for you, JC........ 🙂



  • Thanks JC - I have some understanding of the IT side of things, but good to know why it's set up like this from the business POV.



  • Australia was one of the very first in the world to have what's known as Real-Time Gross Settlement of any kind, back in the 1990s.

    And we did that because our banking sector was (relatively) small and uncomplicated in terms of number of products. When you look at the US banking system - mainly due to the sheer number of institutions - implementing standards-based transactions is more difficult.
     
    New Zealand is now well ahead of us on the electronic banking side only in part due to the smaller population. Mostly, NZ institutions (and not just banks) see the benefits of serving customers with a minimum of cash transactions and the associated logistics that creates. Also a better nationwide telecoms network and the appetite to take advantage of it.
     
    I think I said while I was on holiday, the only place I really needed cash was at a little cafe in Foxton Beach where they didn't have Credit facilities and I was out of cash.
     
     
    Oh and Siam: don't use a non-ANZ ATM unless you want to pop a vein 🙂



  • Well kudos to you for visiting Foxton and making it out alive.



  • LOL. Wasn't that bad. Summer, plenty of sun, the windmill was cool, and the beach was great. Broke up the drive from Whanganui to Welly nicely.



  • Thanks jc ande everyone. Just the sort of info I was after.Fern rocks again



  • LOL. Wasn't that bad. Summer, plenty of sun, the windmill was cool, and the beach was great. Broke up the drive from Whanganui to Welly nicely.

    It could be a really nice little spot, the beach is nice but horrible to launch boats on, Its got more than its share of gang issues  http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2506390/Police-clamp-down-on-Horowhenua-gang-violence
     
    The windmill is a pretty cool tourist stop, apparently there some sort of town tradition for couples to break in and bonk in the other tourist attraction which is horse drawn tram. It was driving the old coot who runs it nuts because they had no money to up the security.



  • I worked on the Faster Payments Process in the UK basically legislation that made it mandatory for transactions between banks of a certain size to take place instantaneously. We had a target of under 7 seconds with any of the partners and would normally perform it under 1.
     
    Then I moved to France. 2 days is standard. If your lucky.
     
    Mooshld



  • It could be a really nice little spot, the beach is nice but horrible to launch boats on, Its got more than its share of gang issues  http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2506390/Police-clamp-down-on-Horowhenua-gang-violence

    Well, we weren't there during night time hours. 
     
    Fuck that was a good trip. Long days of sun (until we got to ChCh) and plenty of shit to see with the family. Awesome food and locally brewed beer. Must get back...



  • Just checked ANZ's website - they process payments to other banks on the same day as long as the payment is made before 10pm, so that's all of the major trading banks here. Kiwibank also process hourly. Not sure about the smaller banks, but there's no reason not to. This doesn't apply on weekends, but some banks transfer within themselves on weekends as well.
    Cash deposits are also instant.



  • I was at a shopping centre today. ANZ had one of their posters up about accepting Apple Pay instantly. I laughed 😉



  • Just checked ANZ's website - they process payments to other banks on the same day as long as the payment is made before 10pm, so that's all of the major trading banks here. Kiwibank also process hourly. Not sure about the smaller banks, but there's no reason not to. This doesn't apply on weekends, but some banks transfer within themselves on weekends as well.
    Cash deposits are also instant.

    Sure but a delay between 2 ANZ accounts from the same branch is pretty pisspoor for 2016 I would have thought



  • And you'd be right.



  • Sure but a delay between 2 ANZ accounts from the same branch is pretty pisspoor for 2016 I would have thought

    ANZ to ANZ is instant here. Apparently the Australian parent is a bit behind its NZ counterpart...



  • Just checked ANZ's website - they process payments to other banks on the same day as long as the payment is made before 10pm, so that's all of the major trading banks here. Kiwibank also process hourly. Not sure about the smaller banks, but there's no reason not to. This doesn't apply on weekends, but some banks transfer within themselves on weekends as well.
    Cash deposits are also instant.

    Negative, they mean they process the payment that night as long as it is before 10PM. After 10PM... then the following night. E.G. ANZ -> Westpac at 10AM will go through overnight. BNZ -> Westpac at 10AM will go through by midday.



  • I was with ANZ, I left them due to a change in financing requirements rather than being disgruntled with ANZ and went to CBA.
    I wasn't expecting to see such a dramatic difference between the two.
     
    Transfers between any CBA accounts is instant.
    CBA offers an excellent iphone app that gives you the ability to send money via phone numbers (CBA Account Holders only), cardless cash collections from ATMs, fingerprint authentication, and near real time transaction updates (I see my in-store purchases hit my Credit Card account on my iphone within a second which wasn't possible at the time with ANZ).
    CBAs online webservice is also much better than ANZs (better functionality, availability and performance).
     
    CBAs biggest downfall is its awards program (only because I am with Frequent Flyers).



  • How does cardless cash out at ATM's work, phonetia?



  • I switched to Westpac at the start of last year when I got a mortgage with them. One thing that annoyed me was if someone put, say, $500-600 in my account (be it wages or just a friend putting cash in for rugby tickets), only $200 of it was available until the next day. I never had this problem with National/ANZ, and likewise with Kiwbank now (refinanced my mortgage at the end of last year but keep a couple of accounts and a credit card with Westpac), all funds are cleared immediately. So I emailed Westpac, they came up with their bullshit excuse of making sure payments to me aren't dishonoured by the banks of the payee, and then told me they're taking off the $200 limit anyway seeing as I asked.



  • I was with ANZ, I left them due to a change in financing requirements rather than being disgruntled with ANZ and went to CBA.
    I wasn't expecting to see such a dramatic difference between the two.
     
    Transfers between any CBA accounts is instant.
    CBA offers an excellent iphone app that gives you the ability to send money via phone numbers (CBA Account Holders only), cardless cash collections from ATMs, fingerprint authentication, and near real time transaction updates (I see my in-store purchases hit my Credit Card account on my iphone within a second which wasn't possible at the time with ANZ).
    CBAs online webservice is also much better than ANZs (better functionality, availability and performance).
     
    CBAs biggest downfall is its awards program (only because I am with Frequent Flyers).

    No they're not (I assume CBA is Commbank). They may show instantly, but the cash is often not available. I can't compare with ANZ as I don't have an ANZ account. I haven't tried the iPhone app tapping other phones thing that M4L spoke about but I'll give it a whirl later this week. 
     
    Cardless cash is great though. Hooroo - if you don't have your card you can withdraw cash from an ATM with a text code.



  • Westpac is my hatiest bank.
     
    All the separate Horse bank accounts are with Westpac and they just seem so behind on the tech front.
     
    Eventually I will set up new horses with Kiwibank but haven't found the time to do so yet



  • Cardless cash is great though. Hooroo - if you don't have your card you can withdraw cash from an ATM with a text code.

    That's awesome! 
     
    Do we have that in NZ, anyone?



  • Westpac is my hatiest bank.
     
    All the separate Horse bank accounts are with Westpac and they just seem so behind on the tech front.
     
    Eventually I will set up new horses with Kiwibank but haven't found the time to do so yet

    I'm just basically keeping the accounts as 1) it's easier to pay into a Westpac account then put it on my credit card as payments to credit cards from other banks seem to take a couple of days and 2) I keep one account for taxes for my contract work.



  • Cardless cash isn't available everywhere EDIT: or every institution - CBA are actually leading the banking sector in a lot of ways.
     
    A few years ago, they put some serious cash into their online banking, and introduced such wonderful things as instant updates to accounts, and particularly credit card transactions. It cost a bomb but delivered some excellent customer service. As a Bankwest customer, I get the knock-on benefits (but not the same payment options in the app) as a subsidiary.
     
    It was amazing, having just left Westpac, to see a credit card transaction come up on my net banking straight away instead of two days later (or longer).



  • I can make a payment on Monday morning from ASB to clear my ANZ credit card and the payment hits my CC account assume at midnight Tuesday.
     
    Cardless cash...interesting.
     
    What does annoy me is why it takes longer for a credit card payment at say a supermarket takes longer to process after you push ok than it does for pay wave...wasn't a fan of it when it came out now I think the places that don't have it are a bit budget haha 
     
    Transactions are instant in NZ, well on my accounts at ASB & ANZ and when I was with Kiwibank they were too.
     
    ASB takes 21 work days to release the cash from a foreign cheque to me, whereas ANZ do so immediately, but charge me $5 for it, while ASB charge a few cents.



  • Yeah it annoys me too TR if they don't have paywave or if my transaction is $82;00 or something. I look to see what I can put back to save that 15 seconds. 🙂


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