Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604363" data-time="1470736209">
<div>
<p>I don't. Gollum just bought up Rwanda where the west is damned because we didn't intervene enough apparently, now we are being damned for intervening too much and Russia who is bombing the shit out Syria naturally get an inexplicable free pass as usual. So intervene or not? Which one am I supposed to feel guilty about? Its so hard to keep track.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Bringing up Rwanda or western military intervention is whattaboutery.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p>you don't reckon they think they're fighting back?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>i wouldn't give russia a free pass on anything, but they are politically so separate from us that to me their actions are kind of irrelevant - we're not going to follow them into anything.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>i think western involvement in the middle east has been a huge factor in us seeing so many more terrorist attacks in western countries. if i were to think of a way to recruit terrorists in the middle east, bringing that up and casting the west as evil would be my number one tactic, and those who had lost family and friends because of it would be top of my list of potential recruits. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>i'm not even really talking about whether it was right or wrong to intervene, just about what the consequences are. i think allowing immigration (in the way that has occurred) from the middle east after making the decision to intervene was foolhardy in the extreme.</p> -
<p>I really wish you would discover the shift key on your keyboard reprobate. It is as bad as my regular typos.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="604359" data-time="1470735371">
<div><br><p>Mine is that Islam more then any other religion is in urgent need of reform due to a wide range of human rights abuses, and that fundamentalists groups like ISIS are inherently linked to the ideology they openly affirm too.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yours is... what exactly? That Islam is already in a process of reformation despite all the evidence pointing to the opposite?</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I 100% agree with your overall point.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And I very much agree with Ali (and usually with her REALLY right wing husband). Where I veer off is the idea that Islam is getting worse, and that Islam is the only issue here. There's more reform now - and reform at high levels, than at any time in the history of the religion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Places like Iran especially womens rights have moved massively forward in 20 years. Islam is still horribly backweard, but its a mistake to assume its not modernising because ISIS are cutting peoples heads off. "All the evidence" - what? ISIS? 30 years ago airlines were regularly hijacked, Iran & Iraq were at war killing milliions etc. The idea this is the worst thats happened and hence evidence of a downwards spirial speaks to zero understanding of recent history.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The rise of ISIS has less to with militant Islam than it has to do with a civil war in Iraq caused by the staggeringly bad government. If you wanted to stop ISIS & could have either imposed a federal government in Iraq that split Sunni / Shia / Kurd zones & ensured the Sunni felt safe & had good governance or de-Islamed the whole country, the former would have worked. The latter wouldn't have done shit. Same in places like Yemen where the uprising AQ have exploited is down to water being withheld from regions the government doesnt like. Egypt may well have a huge uprising in the next 5 years, but it has zero to do with Islam & everything to do with 40% youth unemployment, tho' unquestionably groups like the Muslim Brotherhood will use it & bit'll be branded an Islamist uprising.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Both of those conflicts are civil wars that AQ & ISIS have stepped into to provide an alternative to dying. And oddly people have gone with them. Huge numbers of ISIS fighters are genuine Jihadi's, but far more are guys with no job, who can't feed their families & whose family have been attacked by Badr Brigade thugs, so they got offered $200 a month to join ISIS, and did. Strip away ISIS & AQ you still have civil wars, you just dont have a label. In effect you have Rwanda where Tutsi & Hutu butchered each other.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So I guess my point would be - Islam, contrary to common belief is modernising (too slowly, but still moving forward), but "missionary beheaded!" is always going to get more clicks than "Grand Mufti calls for tolerance of gays". And the extremely bad shit happening in several contries has more to do with economics & abysmall government (and even, trigger here, climate change) than it has to do with Islam. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="604372" data-time="1470738748">
<div>
<p>you don't reckon they think they're fighting back?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>i wouldn't give russia a free pass on anything, but they are politically so separate from us that to me their actions are kind of irrelevant - we're not going to follow them into anything.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>i think western involvement in the middle east has been a huge factor in us seeing so many more terrorist attacks in western countries. if i were to think of a way to recruit terrorists in the middle east, bringing that up and casting the west as evil would be my number one tactic, and those who had lost family and friends because of it would be top of my list of potential recruits. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>i'm not even really talking about whether it was right or wrong to intervene, just about what the consequences are. i think allowing immigration (in the way that has occurred) from the middle east after making the decision to intervene was foolhardy in the extreme.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604383" data-time="1470740202"><p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p></blockquote>You are dedicated to banging on about how bad Islam is, and certainly you can provide examples, like Serbia, where the west inflicted death and destruction without revenge in the form of terrorism against the west. However it doesn't get you any closer to understanding the nature of the enemy and how we might overcome them.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604379" data-time="1470739717">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive. </p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I think this is good, particularly the role of politics and the presence of hideous leaders and governing parties and organisations.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I believe these people make a scapegoat out of religions, which while nuts (religions that is), are still a pretty harmless way most of the world live their lives</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604383" data-time="1470740202">
<div>
<p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>The Indochinese also seem remarkably adverse to committing acts of terror against innocent civilians despite the shit inflicted on them by both their former colonial masters and the US. Actually a Vietnamese guy was imprisoned for terrorism charges. Want to guess what his religion was?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="604379" data-time="1470739717"><p>I'm not defending Islam, its a terrible religion and in an ideal world it & all other religions could go, but thats a farcical fantasy, so instead the solution is to support those reforming (and they are there) & remove the conditions that allow political Islam to thrive.<br></p></blockquote>The west have a poor record in this regard. They have tended to install and/or support strong leaders who can ensure a stable flow of oil as opposed to leaders that are necessarily moderates or reformers. At this point in time I don't think Saudi or Qatar qualify by your criteria
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604386" data-time="1470740781">
<div>
<p>You are dedicated to banging on about how bad Islam is, and certainly you can provide examples, like Serbia, where the west inflicted death and destruction without revenge in the form of terrorism against the west. However it doesn't get you any closer to understanding the nature of the enemy and how we might overcome them.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I've pointed this out before but I'm not banging on about all of islam at all , the vast majority of muslims get on with their lives , raise their kids go to work and chill with their friends without feeling the need to ever but on a suicide vest just like we do. I don't buy this narrative that we bought the shit the radicals are dumping on us on ourselves though especially in light of the way they are treating other muslims who have bugger al but hold a different view of their religion .</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Overcome them?Right now training Iraqi troops , drone strikes and bombing Isis strongholds seems to be doing a good job of overcoming them as their caliphate shrinks day by day. As for understanding them , well they want us to convert to their way of thinking or die. That seems to be about it really, not much room for negotiation there.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604390" data-time="1470741490">
<div>
<p>The west have a poor record in this regard. They have tended to install and/or support strong leaders who can ensure a stable flow of oil as opposed to leaders that are necessarily moderates or reformers. At this point in time I don't think Saudi or Qatar qualify by your criteria</p>
</div>
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<p> </p>
<p>Who was the last leader the west installed?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604357" data-time="1470735174">
<div>
<p>I'd wager there's a few who think it's an example of a hateful ideology that seeks to discriminate and kill those who do not share the same values.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sorry to bring in an alternative point of view.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>There's not really much you can say in response to this is there?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604393" data-time="1470741647"><p>Who was the last leader the west installed?</p></blockquote>Karzai? In terms of the installed part I was thinking of someone like the shah of Iran or Saddam until he lost his privileges. If we're talking about stamping out proliferation of Islam don't you find it peculiar that the west cosies up to both countries I mentioned, who happen to be two of the biggest supporters of the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the world?
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604392" data-time="1470741595"><p>I've pointed this out before but I'm not banging on about all of islam at all , the vast majority of muslims get on with their lives , raise their kids go to work and chill with their friends without feeling the need to ever but on a suicide vest just like we do. I don't buy this narrative that we bought the shit the radicals are dumping on us on ourselves though especially in light of the way they are treating other muslims who have bugger al but hold a different view of their religion .<br>
<br>
Overcome them?Right now training Iraqi troops , drone strikes and bombing Isis strongholds seems to be doing a good job of overcoming them as their caliphate shrinks day by day. As for understanding them , well they want us to convert to their way of thinking or die. That seems to be about it really, not much room for negotiation there.</p></blockquote>i don't think you was the article reprobate posted, it was an interesting interview from a member of ISIS -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604397" data-time="1470742120">
<div>
<p>Karzai? In terms of the installed part I was thinking of someone like the shah of Iran or Saddam until he lost his privileges. <strong>If we're talking about stamping out proliferation of Islam</strong> don't you find it peculiar that the west cosies up to both countries I mentioned, who happen to be two of the biggest supporters of the spread of fundamentalist Islam in the world?</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Whos talking about stamping out the proliferation of islam? You won't find any argument from me about the Saudis, I'm hoping electric cars eventually make them poor and irrelevant again. The US has been reaching out Iran at long last which is making the Saudis squeal .</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Karzai was voted in wasn't he? The Shah was back in the 50s , I don't think the west had much to do with Saddam taking over iraq as he sucked up to the soviets as well.</p> -
<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604395" data-time="1470741800">
<div>
<p>There's not really much you can say in response to this is there?</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>True, a churlish reply from me mate. I defo concede that</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In my opinion (whatever that's worth) it does satirise a lot of what I sense on these threads though.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="604399" data-time="1470742312">
<div>
<p>i don't think you was the article reprobate posted, it was an interesting interview from a member of ISIS</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I missed it, cheers it was a good read. There's been some good stories in the Atlantic and Longform lately too. One was from an anti Isis militia stuck outside their home city and they weren't allowed to go in and fight until they US air force and liaison troops had caught up with them to support an attack to take the whole city because if they didn't go in with their support and stalled or lost the initiative Isis would take out awful reprisals on the people left there. Most of which were the militias family. Not sure how that fits in with the "all the wests bombing is making more terrorists" narrative but you have to feel for the guys sitting outside the city wondering what is happening to their family. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604404" data-time="1470742748">
<div>
<p><strong>Islam is weally weally bad and will kill all of us unless all muslims start living like we do - better?</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>True, a churlish reply from me mate. I defo concede that</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In my opinion (whatever that's worth) it does satirise a lot of what I sense on these threads though.</p>
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</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Go through the thread and dig out the posts that say all islam is bad. I hope we don't have to point out every page or two that no one is actually saying that.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604407" data-time="1470743289"><p>Go through the thread and dig out the posts that say all islam is bad. I hope we don't have to point out every page or two that no one is actually saying that.</p></blockquote>
<br>
hateful<br>
ˈheɪtfʊl,-f(ə)l/Submit<br>
adjective<br>
arousing, deserving of, or filled with hatred.<br>
"that hateful arrogant woman"<br>
informal<br>
very unpleasant.<br>
"a hateful dress"<br>
synonyms: detestable, horrible, horrid, unpleasant, awful, nasty, disagreeable, despicable, objectionable, insufferable, revolting, rotten, loathsome, abhorrent, abominable, damnable, execrable, odious, repugnant, repellent, repulsive, disgusting, distasteful, obnoxious, offensive, foul, vile, heinous; More<br><br>
Will that do or does the word all disqualify that?<br><br>
Similar to how my use of the word sense disqualifies your pedantry<br><br>
Actually nevermindthese discussions are all bullshit. My fault for not reading the fine print -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="604383" data-time="1470740202">
<div>
<p>I don't know whats going on in their heads. The west bombed the shit out of Serbia during the Kosovo crisis and Serbs didn't suddenly start driving trucks into crowds or opening fire at rock concerts. Then again the serbs don't believe in the most intolerant hateful version of Islam, maybe thats the main factor here?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>That was a civil war, the Serbs got what they wanted - an independant Serbia. Why would they carry on commiting terror? The IRA stopped being terrorists when they got what they wanted. As did the Stern Gang, the Yogoslav partisans etc. The Kurds in Turkey pulled back massively when peace talks began. Segment Iraq into 3 federal states with a safe area full of Sunni's with jobs etc you'd virtually destroy ISIS overnight.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="604419" data-time="1470746114">
<div>
<p>hateful<br>
ˈheɪtfʊl,-f(ə)l/Submit<br>
adjective<br>
arousing, deserving of, or filled with hatred.<br>
"that hateful arrogant woman"<br>
informal<br>
very unpleasant.<br>
"a hateful dress"<br>
synonyms: detestable, horrible, horrid, unpleasant, awful, nasty, disagreeable, despicable, objectionable, insufferable, revolting, rotten, loathsome, abhorrent, abominable, damnable, execrable, odious, repugnant, repellent, repulsive, disgusting, distasteful, obnoxious, offensive, foul, vile, heinous; More<br><br>
Will that do or does the word all disqualify that?<br><br>
Similar to how my use of the word sense disqualifies your pedantry<br><br>
Actually nevermindthese discussions are all bullshit. My fault for not reading the fine print</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Did anyone say all of Islam is hateful? Nope, its been specifically directed at the the nutters.</p>