So, what HAS Michael Cheika actually done as a coach?



  • OK, take away the Waratahs Super win as that was on a refs cock up, and the RWC final, as that was on another refs cock up. ( I know, they're in the books, blah blah blah, but really, if you're selecting a coach, you would not look at those as great achievements - unless luck is something that you want to use)!!!<

    That leaves, what?

    Thanks to Wiki, a Heineken Cup with Leinster, and sod all else.

    Is he really, really coach of the year, and an international class coach?

    Thoughts from our Aussies? and Kiwis.

    And apologies if this has already been bought up, it's been a while since I fired up the old Commodore 64 and jumped on the Fern!



  • The Rugby Championship, too. It's all very well to say what has he done but he has coached the Wallabies to #2 for most of his reign. That's a good achievement.



  • Not as good as Shag, far better than many, many other coaches out there.



    1. Has too much man love for Quade2) Over rates Dean MummI don't know he is better than Robbie Deans at least.I also get the feeling that if you took Graham Henry and told him to coach the Wallabies he would also have mixed results. I think a drunk mule could have a 50%winning record coaching the ABs by comparison. Basically whoever we pick seems to play well. For example Sam Cane may not be the best choice for a 7,but he turns up and isn't a liability when he plays for the ABs. The only person who I can recall playing badly when picked was Francis Sailli (sp?)Basically what I am saying is that I don't think you can go too far wrong from a selection point of view and it is an easy coaching job comparedto other gigs.All that said I like other fans question Cheika's choices at times. But yeah, I wouldn't dream of being coach of Australia myself, coaching from yourarm chair is also an easy gig.


  • has he made them better though?  Rankings, schmankings.  True that on the Rugby Championship last year, forgot about that, it always palews into significance in RWC year, i believe Robbie won it in 2011 too, not that anyone remembers...
     
    Saturday will be closer than last week though, Aussies will come out swinging, literally.  may even be ahead at halftime.  But that'll be it.



  • Many kiwis rated deans the best coach going around , then he coached the wallabies ,Its always easier when you have the best players , that is for sure .



  • Many kiwis rated deans the best coach going around , then he coached the wallabies ,Its always easier when you have the best players , that is for sure .Yeah, well said, this is essentially what I was trying to say with my long winded post.



  • WEll at this stage I think the Aussies are going backwards.
     
    But we'll see when they play the Boers and the Argies.



  • I cant believe im saying this ,But im a bit concerned for Australian rugby to be honest ,years ago when they were a powerhouse I wouldve thought I would be celebrating this ,but for the benefit of international rugby , im not so sure this is good thing if we keep flogging them



  • WEll at this stage I think the Aussies are going backwards. But we'll see when they play the Boers and the Argies.I don't think they are going backwards they are just static and havn't improved. I do think they will go backwards this week at a rate of knots with Quade being on the field...but then he will be droppedand sent back to inner sanctum of rugby purgatory where he belongs.England have stepped up a level and had they been that good at the world cup would have made the final and with a home crowd may have even knocked us off.Please note the detail, "with a home crowd", which is an immense advantage in a world cup final.I think other teams have just moved forward this year.New Zealand are a mystery to me. Their whole performance in this year's Super XV competition was out of the box. 4 teams, the Saders, Chiefs, Canes, and Landersplayed test match standard rugby all year and would beat most international teams in the world not named England. I don't know why we blossomed this year. But it happened.Somehow New Zealand rugby is going through a purple patch. Maybe it is just because Barrett, Lima, and Cruden are entering their prime years.Or maybe the all blacks who won the world cup last year grew in confidence and it effected their provincial team mates. Whatever the reason the ABs are better.



  • With reference to the 'new rucks law rant' thread, maybe the opportunity for players and coaches to be part of the trialling process and see & experience the direction the law makers want to go in creates a more adaptable and versatile mindset which when the chips are down results in quicker decision making.
     
    The quicker and more decisive decision making is the difference, not the physical any more. The other nations have caught up in that respect.



  • Physical we have always been behind or equal, and have always have had to be better in the top two inches.  Boers are HUGE, Poms are gym monkeys, then it's us and the rest of the rugby world in bronze for the size stakes.  We just use what we have, by and large better than the rest.  Blitzkreig rugby - concentreate our force where they are weakest!!



  • I cant believe im saying this ,But im a bit concerned for Australian rugby to be honest ,years ago when they were a powerhouse I wouldve thought I would be celebrating this ,but for the benefit of international rugby , im not so sure this is good thing if we keep flogging themI will going ABs by 13+ on the TAB and I probably won't even get good odds for my bet. This could be a record breaking hiding on the weekend.



  • Physical we have always been behind or equal, and have always have had to be better in the top two inches.  Boers are HUGE, Poms are gym monkeys, then it's us and the rest of the rugby world in bronze for the size stakes.  We just use what we have, by and large better than the rest.  Blitzkreig rugby - concentreate our force where they are weakest!!

    For physical read dynamic, a balance between size, speed & endurance.
     
    The ABs have led the field in that respect since rugby went professional.
     
    Possibly before 😉



  • I think we'll be looking at 35-15.



  • yes, we've been dynamic and aglie and use what we've got  - since 1987 pretty much thanks to BJ lochore/



  • I think we'll be looking at 35-15.In 2014 we won 51-20. I am thinking something of that nature.



  • WEll at this stage I think the Aussies are going backwards.
     
    But we'll see when they play the Boers and the Argies.

    I feel like the Aussies are going backwards too but I don't think Chieka's the one to blame for it, just look at how shit the Aussie Super teams were this season (aside from a couple of games, like the Brumbies vs Canes and Tahs vs Chiefs). Still think they're capable of an upset when the stars align though.
     
    Good to see you back, Bart.



  • Hope so, but I'm thinking a tough first half, lots of scuffles etc before they run out of puff and agro.
     
    SUper rugby is shit, yes, but you only need 22 decent players - if you;re not injured all the time thouhg.  So long as your mountain peak is the same height as everyone elses, it doesn't matter how wide the base is!  Unless injuries that is.
     
    We're starting our 5th best 2nd 5 this week!  Nonu, SBW, Crotty, Ngati, ALB.  That's what the base is all about!
     
    Cheers, thought I had better see what is happening on the Fern!



  • I'm not sold on the idea we have been "flogging" them. Last year they beat us, then switched their team around & lost to us in NZ - where they almost always lose to us.
     
    They were pretty good in the world cup - certainly the 2nd best team there, I can't think of any other team that could have clawed back from the 50 minute position in the final, and but for Barretts last minute opportunitst that wasn't a thrashing. Especially not given they lost the guy who had been pivotal at running their team 10 minutes in.
     
    Last week they were shithouse, but half their team hadn't played in months & again, their key play maker & both replacement got broken... The England games were tight & most on here badley under-rate the current pom team. 
     
    No question Aussie has depth issues & the wider Super comp has fucked their combinations, but I don't think they are about to drop out of all contention



  • Are you a new member BartMan ? welcome aboard, I hope you enjoy it here.



  • Nah, place is full of dicks :hi: I'll probabl;y fit in well



  • Jesus batman's here. Fuck me dead.
    Cheika is heaps good at clothes



  • Jesus batman's here. Fuck me dead.
    Cheika is heaps good at clothes

    Speaks lots of languages too.
    Worth remembering Cheika's side would have been knocked out by Scotland in RWC quarter final but for a ref cock up.



  • I am tickled that Bartman has been away for years but still has over 55,000 posts. 
     
    Welcome back big man. 🙂



  • Worth remembering Cheika's side would have been knocked out by Scotland in RWC quarter final but for a ref cock up.

    And that we beat SA by 2 points after SA had been beaten by Japan....



  • I don't think they are going backwards they are just static and havn't improved. I do think they will go backwards this week at a rate of knots with Quade being on the field...but then he will be dropped
    and sent back to inner sanctum of rugby purgatory where he belongs.
    England have stepped up a level and had they been that good at the world cup would have made the final and with a home crowd may have even knocked us off.
    Please note the detail, "with a home crowd", which is an immense advantage in a world cup final.
    I think other teams have just moved forward this year.
    New Zealand are a mystery to me. Their whole performance in this year's Super XV competition was out of the box. 4 teams, the Saders, Chiefs, Canes, and Landers
    played test match standard rugby all year and would beat most international teams in the world not named England. I don't know why we blossomed this year. But it happened.
    Somehow New Zealand rugby is going through a purple patch. Maybe it is just because Barrett, Lima, and Cruden are entering their prime years.
    Or maybe the all blacks who won the world cup last year grew in confidence and it effected their provincial team mates. Whatever the reason the ABs are better.

    I see no mystery - there is a long term plan put together by Sir Graham and Steve Tew, actively supported by five Super Rugby franchises and twenty six provinces, with clear routes for players to follow to make it to the main stage; where the planning is so precise that the current All Blacks captain trained in the job under the immediate past captain; the current All Blacks No 7 trained in the job under the immediate past No 7; and the next coach will likely sit with Steve Hansen for a couple of years before he moves in, learning the job.
     
    I saw a couple of examples of where that quality of forward planning leads just last weekend - the All Blacks have seen off Andrew Hore then Kevan Mealamu in the past three years, fabulous hookers. Dane Coles stepped in with the benefit of a three year apprenticeship. He was injured at a most inconvenient time for this series yet the selectors had three alternatives to consider, each with Super Rugby experience and each with a close familiarity with the All Blacks way. The other thing I noticed was in watching parts of the first round of the NPC on Saturday - the precision and speed we see from the All Blacks is being replicated there too.
     
    None of this has come about by chance and every part of it has been years in the making.



  • Stop being so sensible Mick. We're here to kick Cheika in the nuts, your sort of rationality is sorely misplaced.



  • The England to Whitewash Australia thread before the series started is worth a reread for a good laugh. A rallying cry was "Look how far the team have come from McKenzie". They had two solid performances against NZ in his last year including a draw and last minute loss.
     
    A few also wax lyrical about his inspirational press conferences being integral to his wizardry. Now his press conferences resemble a sad puppy dog pouting that people are kicking him while he is down.
     
    The thing is the easiest time to coach is in your first year where you can shake up selection, tactics, captaincy etc, second easiest time is a world cup year when you have maximum buy in. Cheika had both at once. Now he has to build something over 4 years, this is a completely different gig than what he did in the 12 month sprint he did last year.
     
    Lastly twice in the past seven games Cheika has taken full blame for stuffing up the preparation -  the Scottish QF and then last week. Either this is a tactic which will have diminishing returns or it's the truth in which case do you want someone who bottles it so regularly in high pressure fixtures.
     
    A large part of Cheika's undoing (along with Deans and McKensie) is that they have too much ego to hire a decent assistant panel. Steve Hansen I'm sure has had the odd poor week or unfocused week or pushed the wrong buttons - but he has a team around him that is going to be able to compensate for that and challenge him before he goes too far down the wrong path. Cheika has assembled an army of yes-men and rookies rather than a panel of equals.
     
    Make sure the referee's changing shed is locked this week that's all I can say.



  • I cant believe im saying this ,
    But im a bit concerned for Australian rugby to be honest ,
    years ago when they were a powerhouse I wouldve thought I would be celebrating this ,
    but for the benefit of international rugby , im not so sure this is good thing if we keep flogging them

    I'm cool with it, it's like the neighbours dog that ran up and down your fence barking it's head off from 1998-2003 then its owner backed over it in the driveway and every time you leave for work you see the thing moping on its porch with a bucket around its neck to stop it licking its festering wounds.



  • I have a theory on oz rugby- back in the day rugby was a toffs sport in oz - players came from private schools were intelligent young men with flair. The ozzies lead the way in back play and innovation- we followed  them and tried to counter them by size as we couldn't outwit them.
    Along came pro rugby the uni boy has been push aside to bring in bigger athletes playing with no innovation and basically just copying our style without having the cattle to do it.
    I think its a shame to see Aussie rugby like this we need them the rugby world needs them to be smart again- to play with brains - The Ellas- Campos, Farr-Jones etc



  • The thing is the easiest time to coach is in your first year where you can shake up selection, tactics, captaincy etc, second easiest time is a world cup year when you have maximum buy in. Cheika had both at once. Now he has to build something over 4 years, this is a completely different gig than what he did in the 12 month sprint he did last year.

    This applies equally to Eddie Jones.  First year and RWC year is easy.  However, the history with Eddie seems to be that the micro-management and control eventually pisses people off.

    Long story short: I'll take odds that Eddie won't be at the next RWC with England, and England won't maintain their apparent form.



  • Mick has a good point but Cheikas biggest apparent failing is this very lack of forward planning. When injuries arise he has no fallback to up and comers he has nurtured, instead he is looking to old and failed players instead to putty up the holes.
    Despite the lack of Super Rugby results the are actually some promising players kicking around. From what we can see he brings a few into an extended squad then discards them.
    Compare that with the ABs that regularly bring these new players into camp to teach them, send them away with homework then reward those that do their homework with spots when a situation develops.
    I don't see that happening with the Wobblies. Foley to 12 is a prime example. Seriously?



  • OK, take away the Waratahs Super win as that was on a refs cock up, and the RWC final, as that was on another refs cock up.  ( I know, they're in the books, blah blah blah, but really, if you're selecting a coach, you would not lookk at those as great achievements - unless luck is soemthing that you want to use)!!!
     
    That leaves, what? 
     
    Thanks to Wiki, a Heineken Cup with Leinster, and sod all else.
     
    Is he really, really coach of the year, and an international class coach?
     
    Thoughts from our Aussies?  and Kiwis.
     
    And apologies if this has already been bought up, it's bene a while sice I fired up the old Commodore 64 and jumped on the Fern!

    Excuse me, we don't allow trolls on this site, so on your way newbie......



  • Cheika? What's he done?
    He deliberately lost at Eden Park last year. God damn genius that! Genius!
    PS BartMan! I thought you were dead. Or selling paint. If they're not the same thing. ..



  • For example Sam Cane may not be the best choice for a 7,

    About to bite. Checks username. Realises trolling. Swims on past rancid bait.



  • Excuse me, we don't allow trolls on this site, so on your way newbie......

    Last one out, turn off the lights



  • Australia almost (should not have) made it out of the 1/4 finals of the RWC, I thought they were pretty average in that tournament.
    Cheika does appear pretty over hyped. He is not a bad coach, he is a good coach.. but he has been pumped up to a level that is simply is not.



  • About to bite. Checks username. Realises trolling. Swims on past rancid bait.

    hurricane is a Chiefs man through and through...



  • Physical we have always been behind or equal, and have always have had to be better in the top two inches.  Boers are HUGE, Poms are gym monkeys, then it's us and the rest of the rugby world in bronze for the size stakes.  We just use what we have, by and large better than the rest.  Blitzkreig rugby - concentreate our force where they are weakest!!

    I think that's historical and these days we run out with packs the same size as everyone now. In the past few years we've had heavier scrums that both those teams on various occasions (and if we'd selected Tubbyfuna we'd always have had bigger packs than them).
     
    We've actually beaten the Boks and Poms recently by beating them up in the forwards. 
     
    But I think it's a combo of us getting bigger, and those teams realising might isn't always right.
     
    Anyway, good to see you back for a cameo Bart.


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