@NTA This makes perfect sense from a Kiwi perspective but little to none from an Australian perspective.

Many Australian fans at this stage want to ditch SR altogether and start from scratch (verging on a majority). So any proposed TT comp is already starting at a low base of support. We are then required to cut two teams (presumably excluding Twiggy's Force over cutting one of the more traditional franchises) to be allowed to participate in what will effectively be an exercise in All Black production. I'm failing to see the incentive.

Most people argue that one of the biggest contributing factors to the decline of SR in Aus is the lack of local derbies/home games and local content. A 5/3 split will represent a marginal improvement over the current format - but will cut 2/5ths of the Australian market from the comp. A poor trade off.

It's no sure thing that cutting two teams will magically make the other three stronger, either. Plenty of players will simply leave for Japan or Europe and the financial and marketing damage done in the process would, in my opinion, be a terminal move for the remaining Australian teams - before a ball is even kicked.

The inconsistency of suggesting that we must cut two teams but the comp must also include a PI team is also pretty frustrating. What are the odds of a PI team (after the majority of the funds get siphoned off by the likes of Killer Keane) actually being competitive?

Finally, Twiggy has regularly expressed an interest in pumping considerable investment into a competition with a single management body that is run in it's own interests (rather than being primarily run for the purposes of Wallaby and AB production). There have also been expressions of interest from PE firms in the US. McLellan has expressed an interest in releasing control of the second tier of Australian rugby to private equity. Given the rather enormous trade-offs involved in us participating in an 8 (or 9) team TT comp - why wouldn't we pursue this option?

Word is a NZ only comp is not financially viable so i don't get why a string of senior NZ figures are trying to strong arm Aus into a format that makes absolutely no sense to them?

@shark I agree with this. I think there are loads of latent fans that just switched off because Rugby management in Aus couldnt run a piss up in a brothel and it's been run into the ground. If we could:

a) get our best players back;
b) get the bigger games on FTA with effective marketing;
c) win the occasional thing; and
d) deport Phil Kearns

the crowds would come back, and quickly.

Only 20 years ago that the Bled was played in front of 110k.

@Chris-B It was post the 2015 WC which saw our biggest player exodus. To premise the future of an entire competition on a bad patch of about 2 years seems ridiculous, though our results and performance were terrible in that period.

Our next crop of players look far more promising, outperforming their NZ counterparts so far. Raelene put a lot of work into securing our talent before it got poached by loig and results had looked to be improving this season.

@Snowy My point is that the dip in form post RWC15 was due to the player drain and that prior to that results had been reasonable. Following that, RC did work to secure talent pathways which is already reaping dividends and results had been improving. Hell, even the much derided Rebels beat the Highlanders away this year. The Brumbies also knocking off the in-form Chiefs.

To predicate the structure of the entire competition on the lack of performance post RWC15 would be silly, IMO. Particularly when the other 4 NZ teams have themselves not demonstrated that they can compete with the Crusaders on a regular basis anyway.

Im basically pointing out that the prevailing assumption that 'Aussie teams are all garbage' and 'NZ teams are amazing and constantly competitive' is pretty flawed.

@nzzp the reality is NZ need teams to play and in a Covid fucked world Australia is the most likely (and probably the only realistic) source of those teams. This gives Australia some leverage, though Australia need NZ just as much.

The 'competitiveness' argument is bullshit as evidenced by NZRU's posturing for a Japanese/Pasifika team. Yep, those teams will really bring the high quality NZ so desire.

It's all bullshit posturing and ego. The reality is both countries need each other and the simplest solution (at least for next year) is to incorporate the 10 already existing teams most likely to be able to play each other into a single competition.

Financial limitations and travel restrictions make anything else highly unlikely to be viable. It's worth keeping in mind that 2021 is just going to be another stop-gap, regardless of what is agreed.

If ego stops a TT going ahead, well both nations deserve what they get.

@Kiwiwomble Yeah but then you are limiting your audience and any potential growth. It was tremendously damaging to the game in Australia to cut the Force. They were the fastest growing area of rugby in terms of viewership and grassroots and boast the only billionaire benefactor around in the Southern Hemisphere. Sure they hadnt achieved anything particularly amazing yet but, as you say, these things take decades not years.

@Billy-Tell Australia won the comp twice with 5 teams.

@Stargazer I doubt they'd manufacture direct quotes though. That's treading into defamation territory.

@NTA That's pretty much the exclusive business model of private equity firms. Buy something that's in the dumps on the cheap, take over management and pump capital into it to turn a profit (where there is opportunity, obviously).

Yeah Twiggy only became involved when he had to - but he's followed through whenever he said he would.

Don't get me wrong. My overwhelmingly preferred option is a TT comp. But if it's anything less than a 10 team even split it becomes such a bad outcome for Aussie rugby that it's almost preferable to gamble on something new.

@akan004 Presumably because one is self funded now.

@shark I agree with this. I think there are loads of latent fans that just switched off because Rugby management in Aus couldnt run a piss up in a brothel and it's been run into the ground. If we could:

a) get our best players back;
b) get the bigger games on FTA with effective marketing;
c) win the occasional thing; and
d) deport Phil Kearns

the crowds would come back, and quickly.

Only 20 years ago that the Bled was played in front of 110k.

@sparky I thought any player is capped at a maximum of 30 games per year? (dont quote me)

@sparky Hong Kong? someone's been avoiding the news...

Super 12 sounds good to me, but a few pretty big 'ifs' around who those extra two teams will be.

@mariner4life Because Twiggy forest is a billionaire and he's chosen to pay for it. We cut it because we couldnt afford it (supposedly). If he is offering to foot the entire bill - why wouldnt we accept it.

But i wouldn't die on a hill for the Force. As you say, they are now separate to RA. The real issue is cutting another team.

@antipodean yeah that went well for them... i can see why teams would be lining up to follow suit.

If your argument is 'you have to cut a team because otherwise we'll get the Brave Blossoms' i think im done here.

@antipodean and that why i said 'pipe dream'.

@antipodean who's going to be mid-table and bring in heaps of cash? Maybe if you invite the Japanese national team but otherwise im drawing blanks.

Hell, the Lions were the form South African team over the past five years and lets be honest, they were middling when compared to the NZ sides.

It would be great if you could magic up a highly competitive rugby competition which brought in lots of money and gave your current 5 teams a challenge. It's also a pipe dream.

I think there is plenty of merit to the suggestion that we should not have expanded. But i really don't think you can just 'undo' it and expect to end up where we started.

@akan004 Ive set out my reasoning in earlier posts.

@Derpus But cutting a team will just remove more talent. It won't magically compress it. This getting circular, anyway. Ive said what i think will happen if you cut a team. A repeat of the Force cutting. I.e. nothing but damage.