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@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
I can see the point there Nick, but this apparently independent and non-structured religion that is powerless to produce a united front in tackling terrorism often appears to be incredibly united and on the same page when there is a grievance or something to bitch about.
That's different to having a hierarchy.
There are still core tenets common to all of the sects of Islam, I assume.
Maybe they all don't like a particular thing they see. Maybe some of them will protest it vehemently as a group. But assuming they'll all start cutting heads off, or stabbing people on the high street, about that thing they don't like, is too broad a brush.
Funny thing: the news doesn't often report on the Muslims that see the thing they don't like in the news, and get on with their lives after a brief shake of the head.
Who is assuming they'll all cut off heads? Who even suggested that?
My point is that I don't buy the argument that Muslims can do nothing about this at an individual or group level because they lack a Catholic like hierarchy.
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@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@canefan That is absolutely right and not very well understood by those defending it. Most people I know who are coming like white knights to defend all things islamic over the last few hours know incredibly little about the religion. They've never read the texts, they don't know the history, all they see is a different flavoured Christianity but one that is marginalised and must be protected at all costs unlike Christianity which is the foundation of all that is evil.
Yup, 100%. If you have not educated yourself on the topic then you cannot join the debate as anything but a puppet for someone elses ideas. Which is bad for a number of reasons not least being that you don't understand the motovation for those ideas.
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Interesting piece on the inner thinkings at ground zero of the wahaabist disease, Saudi Arabia
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
Who is assuming they'll all cut off heads? Who even suggested that?
Calm your farm. It's an expression of the level of violence some of them go to in the name of their religion. That's one extreme. The other is shaking your head and getting on with your life.
My point is that I don't buy the argument that Muslims can do nothing about this at an individual or group level because they lack a Catholic like hierarchy.
They can do something about it at every level if they're so inclined. The Manchester bomber was reported to authorities (more than once, I believe) by the Muslim community as one example. I imagine that's how a few of them get into watch lists in the first place.
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Forget May's speech, this is the way to deal with this sort of thing.
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@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@antipodean Sickening isn't it. I guess they just want to avoid having egg on their face when its discovered that the terrorists were really white football hooligans right?
Weak and pathetic.
Tommy Robinson (who isn't known to pull punches) makes a great point as to what will happen if the authorities don't actually do something people will start taking things into their own hands then you'll really have an extremist problem.
That's quite a detailed rant from Tommy Robinson. His proposed solution of internment borrowed from the Troubles in Northern Ireland would give me pause for thought however.
I'm old enough to have grown up during the war in Northern Ireland and seen the effect it had on people on both sides of the divide. There was plenty of internment of people - from both Republican and Loyalist/Unionst factions. I'm not sure how successful a policy it was though. It brought like-minded people together into the one space, and guarded by their 'oppressors', fostered further hatred/opposition and deferred attempts at bringing about a long-term peaceful solution.
Robinson contends that if the British Govt do nothing then homegrown militias will emerge to take the law into their own hands - and again he draws a parallel with NI on this - presumably making reference to some of the 'murder gangs' that were created within communities. He fails to acknowledge that the British Army had already been dispatched onto the streets in the late sixties/early seventies - initially to protect Catholic communities - and then found themselves fighting people within them. If Britain were to become like NI in the seventies and eighties with troops deployed actively on the streets on a daily basis, patrolling and supporting the police (who would then be armed like the RUC were), what would ordinary Britons make of life then? Or attempting to 'intern' a cohort of some 3,500-4,00o suspected people, what does someone like Robinson think will be the intended and unintended consequences of that policy?
For all that, I understand his frustration. These are dangerous times without doubt. And that danger is getting closer and closer to all of our streets and front doors.
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@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
Who is assuming they'll all cut off heads? Who even suggested that?
Calm your farm. It's an expression of the level of violence some of them go to in the name of their religion. That's one extreme. The other is shaking your head and getting on with your life.
My point is that I don't buy the argument that Muslims can do nothing about this at an individual or group level because they lack a Catholic like hierarchy.
They can do something about it at every level if they're so inclined. The Manchester bomber was reported to authorities (more than once, I believe) by the Muslim community as one example. I imagine that's how a few of them get into watch lists in the first place.
Doesn't that last paragraph contradict your entire argument?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel not necessarily. We were taking about "mainstream" in the same terms as people think generally about religion. There is a difference in structure that means Reformation (per the Christian church) can't be approached in the same way.
If the individuals or local groups choose to do something about a loose cannon in their midst, even if they are a noted or respected Imam, it doesn't necessarily create a wave of change. In fact, they're likely to be condemned by the whack jobs halfway around the world.
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@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel not necessarily. We were taking about "mainstream" in the same terms as people think generally about religion. There is a difference in structure that means Reformation (per the Christian church) can't be approached in the same way.
If the individuals or local groups choose to do something about a loose cannon in their midst, even if they are a noted or respected Imam, it doesn't necessarily create a wave of change. In fact, they're likely to be condemned by the whack jobs halfway around the world.
Or threatened by wack jobs on the same street...
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@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo I guess that is fair enough but are you not concerned at all where this could be leading? I've left the uk now but 3 major attacks in 2 months worries the hell out of me, slightly less so now that my sister has left but I still have many friends there and all I seem to see is huge attempts in politics and media to pretend there isn't an issue which is no where near addressing the problem.
Honestly I can say it doesn't bother me as much as it doesn't bother me what is happening in many african countries etc.
It is bad humans acting in a way bad humans act. This will always happen somewhere. That will never stop.
I can live with that
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
I don't care nor think about it as it doesn't affect how I go about my life.
I am interested in the going ons of the separate attacks etc. But the threads just deteriorate into peoples opions on islam and they are exactly the same threads we see over and over again and end up beig who can shout the loudest
Turns out one of the victims is a kiwi. .. so you might be effected after all. Know anyone in London from Christchurch?
There would be more chance at someone being in a car accident in NZ that I would know and I don't worry about car accidents either.
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@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
I don't care nor think about it as it doesn't affect how I go about my life.
I am interested in the going ons of the separate attacks etc. But the threads just deteriorate into peoples opions on islam and they are exactly the same threads we see over and over again and end up beig who can shout the loudest
Turns out one of the victims is a kiwi. .. so you might be effected after all. Know anyone in London from Christchurch?
There would be more chance at someone being in a car accident in NZ that I would know and I don't worry about car accidents either.
Worry is a different issue. Didnt you say they don't effect you?
The specific attacks don't worry me either. I just assume nobody I know will be involved. -
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
Great to see the actual mention of evil Islamist extremism, hopefully media can follow suit. Good speech I thought. UK would be idiots to go to Corbyn now
This bothers me if it isn't done correctly.
The UK had already bought in rafts of hate speech and terror laws.. and they used by the authorities to harass people over rubbish bins and attack people like Tommy Robinson. These laws usually attack people for Islamophobia! Screw more of that. Any new laws have to be against religious extremists. ..and a list of religions covered attached. At this time just Islam. .. but if Jews, Christians conduct multiple attacks in the UK they can be added to. Islam can be taken off after 15 years of no attacks.
I fear any new laws will just make the UK closer to a police state. This is an Islamic extremist issue.... not a hate speech issue.
Another attack in London