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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
Who is assuming they'll all cut off heads? Who even suggested that?
Calm your farm. It's an expression of the level of violence some of them go to in the name of their religion. That's one extreme. The other is shaking your head and getting on with your life.
My point is that I don't buy the argument that Muslims can do nothing about this at an individual or group level because they lack a Catholic like hierarchy.
They can do something about it at every level if they're so inclined. The Manchester bomber was reported to authorities (more than once, I believe) by the Muslim community as one example. I imagine that's how a few of them get into watch lists in the first place.
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Forget May's speech, this is the way to deal with this sort of thing.
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@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@antipodean Sickening isn't it. I guess they just want to avoid having egg on their face when its discovered that the terrorists were really white football hooligans right?
Weak and pathetic.
Tommy Robinson (who isn't known to pull punches) makes a great point as to what will happen if the authorities don't actually do something people will start taking things into their own hands then you'll really have an extremist problem.
That's quite a detailed rant from Tommy Robinson. His proposed solution of internment borrowed from the Troubles in Northern Ireland would give me pause for thought however.
I'm old enough to have grown up during the war in Northern Ireland and seen the effect it had on people on both sides of the divide. There was plenty of internment of people - from both Republican and Loyalist/Unionst factions. I'm not sure how successful a policy it was though. It brought like-minded people together into the one space, and guarded by their 'oppressors', fostered further hatred/opposition and deferred attempts at bringing about a long-term peaceful solution.
Robinson contends that if the British Govt do nothing then homegrown militias will emerge to take the law into their own hands - and again he draws a parallel with NI on this - presumably making reference to some of the 'murder gangs' that were created within communities. He fails to acknowledge that the British Army had already been dispatched onto the streets in the late sixties/early seventies - initially to protect Catholic communities - and then found themselves fighting people within them. If Britain were to become like NI in the seventies and eighties with troops deployed actively on the streets on a daily basis, patrolling and supporting the police (who would then be armed like the RUC were), what would ordinary Britons make of life then? Or attempting to 'intern' a cohort of some 3,500-4,00o suspected people, what does someone like Robinson think will be the intended and unintended consequences of that policy?
For all that, I understand his frustration. These are dangerous times without doubt. And that danger is getting closer and closer to all of our streets and front doors.
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@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Another attack in London:
Who is assuming they'll all cut off heads? Who even suggested that?
Calm your farm. It's an expression of the level of violence some of them go to in the name of their religion. That's one extreme. The other is shaking your head and getting on with your life.
My point is that I don't buy the argument that Muslims can do nothing about this at an individual or group level because they lack a Catholic like hierarchy.
They can do something about it at every level if they're so inclined. The Manchester bomber was reported to authorities (more than once, I believe) by the Muslim community as one example. I imagine that's how a few of them get into watch lists in the first place.
Doesn't that last paragraph contradict your entire argument?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel not necessarily. We were taking about "mainstream" in the same terms as people think generally about religion. There is a difference in structure that means Reformation (per the Christian church) can't be approached in the same way.
If the individuals or local groups choose to do something about a loose cannon in their midst, even if they are a noted or respected Imam, it doesn't necessarily create a wave of change. In fact, they're likely to be condemned by the whack jobs halfway around the world.
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@NTA said in Another attack in London:
@Rancid-Schnitzel not necessarily. We were taking about "mainstream" in the same terms as people think generally about religion. There is a difference in structure that means Reformation (per the Christian church) can't be approached in the same way.
If the individuals or local groups choose to do something about a loose cannon in their midst, even if they are a noted or respected Imam, it doesn't necessarily create a wave of change. In fact, they're likely to be condemned by the whack jobs halfway around the world.
Or threatened by wack jobs on the same street...
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@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo I guess that is fair enough but are you not concerned at all where this could be leading? I've left the uk now but 3 major attacks in 2 months worries the hell out of me, slightly less so now that my sister has left but I still have many friends there and all I seem to see is huge attempts in politics and media to pretend there isn't an issue which is no where near addressing the problem.
Honestly I can say it doesn't bother me as much as it doesn't bother me what is happening in many african countries etc.
It is bad humans acting in a way bad humans act. This will always happen somewhere. That will never stop.
I can live with that
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
I don't care nor think about it as it doesn't affect how I go about my life.
I am interested in the going ons of the separate attacks etc. But the threads just deteriorate into peoples opions on islam and they are exactly the same threads we see over and over again and end up beig who can shout the loudest
Turns out one of the victims is a kiwi. .. so you might be effected after all. Know anyone in London from Christchurch?
There would be more chance at someone being in a car accident in NZ that I would know and I don't worry about car accidents either.
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@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
I don't care nor think about it as it doesn't affect how I go about my life.
I am interested in the going ons of the separate attacks etc. But the threads just deteriorate into peoples opions on islam and they are exactly the same threads we see over and over again and end up beig who can shout the loudest
Turns out one of the victims is a kiwi. .. so you might be effected after all. Know anyone in London from Christchurch?
There would be more chance at someone being in a car accident in NZ that I would know and I don't worry about car accidents either.
Worry is a different issue. Didnt you say they don't effect you?
The specific attacks don't worry me either. I just assume nobody I know will be involved. -
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
Great to see the actual mention of evil Islamist extremism, hopefully media can follow suit. Good speech I thought. UK would be idiots to go to Corbyn now
This bothers me if it isn't done correctly.
The UK had already bought in rafts of hate speech and terror laws.. and they used by the authorities to harass people over rubbish bins and attack people like Tommy Robinson. These laws usually attack people for Islamophobia! Screw more of that. Any new laws have to be against religious extremists. ..and a list of religions covered attached. At this time just Islam. .. but if Jews, Christians conduct multiple attacks in the UK they can be added to. Islam can be taken off after 15 years of no attacks.
I fear any new laws will just make the UK closer to a police state. This is an Islamic extremist issue.... not a hate speech issue. -
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo I guess that is fair enough but are you not concerned at all where this could be leading? I've left the uk now but 3 major attacks in 2 months worries the hell out of me, slightly less so now that my sister has left but I still have many friends there and all I seem to see is huge attempts in politics and media to pretend there isn't an issue which is no where near addressing the problem.
Honestly I can say it doesn't bother me as much as it doesn't bother me what is happening in many african countries etc.
It is bad humans acting in a way bad humans act. This will always happen somewhere. That will never stop.
I can live with that
Fair enough, I doubt there's much anyone can say to convince you otherwise. I would say though that as these attacks are acts of terrorism - I.E. the use of violence/force to push an ideology with political aims - they are quite a bit more serious then the odd bad egg or random car accidents. Thanks to countries like Saudi Arabia pumping billions of dollars into spreading this, and the wests appeasement to Islam, it is spreading to more and more countries. I'd say someone detonating themselves and blowing hundreds of people to bits at a rugby game in NZ is something we desperately want to avoid.
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@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
@Baron-Silas-Greenback said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
I don't care nor think about it as it doesn't affect how I go about my life.
I am interested in the going ons of the separate attacks etc. But the threads just deteriorate into peoples opions on islam and they are exactly the same threads we see over and over again and end up beig who can shout the loudest
Turns out one of the victims is a kiwi. .. so you might be effected after all. Know anyone in London from Christchurch?
There would be more chance at someone being in a car accident in NZ that I would know and I don't worry about car accidents either.
Worry is a different issue. Didnt you say they don't effect you?
The specific attacks don't worry me either. I just assume nobody I know will be involved.I'm not splitting my meanings for the sake of interent talk. If you don't get what I mean then all good.
It doesn't effect, worry, bother, cause issue with, me. THe only time I see it is in the odd headline and constantly in Off Topic on here.
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@No-Quarter said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo said in Another attack in London:
@Rembrandt said in Another attack in London:
@Hooroo I guess that is fair enough but are you not concerned at all where this could be leading? I've left the uk now but 3 major attacks in 2 months worries the hell out of me, slightly less so now that my sister has left but I still have many friends there and all I seem to see is huge attempts in politics and media to pretend there isn't an issue which is no where near addressing the problem.
Honestly I can say it doesn't bother me as much as it doesn't bother me what is happening in many african countries etc.
It is bad humans acting in a way bad humans act. This will always happen somewhere. That will never stop.
I can live with that
Fair enough, I doubt there's much anyone can say to convince you otherwise. I would say though that as these attacks are acts of terrorism - I.E. the use of violence/force to push an ideology with political aims - they are quite a bit more serious then the odd bad egg or random car accidents. Thanks to countries like Saudi Arabia pumping billions of dollars into spreading this, and the wests appeasement to Islam, it is spreading to more and more countries. I'd say someone detonating themselves and blowing hundreds of people to bits at a rugby game in NZ is something we desperately want to avoid.
THere are many things we want to avoid. I think we should concern ourselves with gangs and crime etc. That gets less coverage over here than an incedent on the other side of the world
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An article from the Spectator published today:
How to tackle the terrorist threat: four steps we must now consider
James Forsyth
For the second time in this election, political campaigning is suspended because of a terrorist attack. Given the volume of terrorist attacks—three in the last three months and five other plots disrupted—you might think that the issue would have dominated the campaign. But it hasn’t. Until Theresa May’s statement today talking about how there has been too much tolerance for extremism, there has been remarkably little discussion about how this country should deal with this problem.
Now, you can say that we shouldn’t allow the terrorists to set the agenda. But I fear that the main reason for the absence of debate is that no one is quite sure what to do. However, it is imperative that we start talking seriously about the steps we can take. This problem isn’t going away and, as the Prime Minister acknowledged this morning, it is currently getting worse.
There are those talking about internment. I think this is a flawed idea, and one that won’t work. But there are things we need to do. Ideologically we need to accept that these terrorists believe that they find justifications for their action in their faith, and saying that the attacks have nothing to do with Islam is actually counter-productive. As the historian Tom Holland has pointed out, only once we appreciate this link and the fact there is schism within Islam can we start to really deal with this threat.
Then, we need to consider whether leaving the UK for certain states that have a particular terrorist problem, for example Libya, should require an exit visa. We don’t yet know whether the London Bridge attackers have links with any other countries. But we know that the Manchester attacker went to Libya multiple times and the New York Times is reporting that he used these visits to meet with Islamic State commanders. Exit visas would make it easier for the security services to keep an eye on these kind of trips and to arrest anyone who went to these places without permission and charge them with an imprisonable criminal offence.
We also need to consider whether we need Singapore-style rules to prevent public housing from becoming racial or religious ghettoes. In diverse towns and cities, is it really sensible to have estates that are made up almost exclusively of people from one ethnic or faith group? By this logic, I wonder if we should pause before allowing faith schools to be made up solely of pupils of that faith.
We need to be having a public debate about whether we need an Islamic version of the Maynooth Grant, the money the British state sent to the Maynooth seminary in Ireland in the 19th century to create a cadre of Roman Catholic priests who were more sympathetic to the British state. A modern-day Maynooth Grant would help foster a British version of Islam, one that is more easily compatible with our society. If we go down this road, it should be accompanied by a tightening of the rules on foreign funding of religious institutions in Britain and on preachers coming here from abroad.
The answers to the terrorist problem we face aren’t simple. This isn’t about foreign policy, it is about the hatred a small—but significant—number of Islamists have for the very basis of our society. Tackling it won’t be simple. But ignoring the problem isn’t going to solve it. So, as a matter of urgency, we need to start having a grown-up–and frank–debate about what we are going to do.
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CNN caught staging news!
They even brought "peace group" printed out papers and props. https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/06/04/british-media-cnni-caught-on-video-staging-politically-correct-propaganda/
Another attack in London